I would say it is inappropriate when it causes the horse pain or discomfort, and using a whip for discipline is a big no no. I was always taught that a dressage whip is to be carried and only ever used behind the riders leg to lightly tap the horses side to reinforce the cues. I was taught to ride on riding school horses who often ignored the riders leg due to years of being kicked and booted in the ribs and my instructor always said that a light tap just to let the horse know what was required was all that was needed, and was kinder than a barrage of kicking. Also never to use it on the shoulder or anywhere else on the horse. However, since adopting Monty's methods I have ditched the whip altogether and have decided that if I can't ride without one then I shouldn't be riding at all. I think also that whips are often used by inexperienced people who haven't correctly asked for the right cue. I think we should learn to whisper before we shout!

Thanks emlaw, I too have used the dressage whip, but not for a long time.

Well said Emlaw. I totally agree with what you have said and do get upset when I see people whipping a horse with a dressage whip either on the ground or when riding. Although like you I have used dressage whips in the past I don't these days. However I must admit I did use a dressage whip lightly from the ground fairly recently when handling a very stubborn horse that would not respond to the dually halter or the twirling rope. I wasn't impressed with my self for resorting to the whip but that is what he expected and responded to. Quite sad really.

Once years ago during a riding lesson, the instructor made me carry two dressage whips, one on each side, and use them at the same time. At the time I was riding a big gelderlander warmblood gelding and I was a novice rider. I am quite a lightweight person and in hindsight I think I was probably totally overhorsed and way to small for the big gelding and I should have been riding something smaller and more suitable for a beginner rather than using whips to make up for my lack of experience. The poor horse! The first time I ever fell off a horse was on my second or third lesson ever, I had never cantered and the instructor told me to ask the horse to canter. Of course, I got the cue wrong and the horse just went forward into a faster trot. So what did the instructor do? Ran up behind her and whacked her on the backside with a schooling whip - she shot off like a bullet and I flew off and landed in a heap. A lesson in how NOT to use a whip!

I should hasten to add that I stopped having lessons at that particular establishment and started attending another place where the instructors were a bit more enlightened!

An amuzing lesson emlaw!!

If only I had discovered Monty twenty years ago when I was learning to ride, I didn't know much about his methods until 1996 when I saw him on tour with his horse Dually, what an eye opener!

Emlaw, I've had an instructor do that too and it made me nervous!

Hi all
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I agree with emlaw - you cross the line with a whip when you cause pain or use it for discipline. A whip (if you choose to use one) should only ever be an extension of your arm that is used to que your horse. A whip should never be used for pain or punishment. My horses don't know that whips can cause pain because I only use one to que. it upsets me so much when I see people hurting horses with whips.
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Kind regards,
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Gen

Good point Gen.

I agree no need for whips to ever touch the horse physicaly with aggression .But to quote Monty its the hands that hold them

absolutely unicorn!

I believe the same thing goes with spurs too.

Unicorn - that is so true, and it really applies to anything that could potentially hurt the horse, like bits, spurs (as Horse Addict says), halters, even the Dually. Any piece of equipment is only as good as the hands that hold them. Even a mild bit in the wrong hands can be an instrument of torture. Just to add to the stories I mentioned above about my early riding lessons, I actually had one instructor shouting to another rider in a group lesson 'yank the reins harder, sock him in the mouth!'. Upsets me to think about it now.

Yeah, I agree emlaw.

thats why its so nice to see montys journey and from his life of beatings and abuse comes this beautful gift of gentleness a way for us to be with animals in our lifes to honour them and understand them what interesting is i work with little children and you can use a form of his techniques with the kids. Maybe one day the people who harm animals to train will to have a relization we can only hope

One thing that really irritates me is when a person is on a horse and someone else comes along and whacks the horse on the butt to get it to go. In my experience, the only thing that does is scare the horse and make it dangerous for the person who is trying to ride it. Especially when its a wild horse which is being trained, but really, any horse, trained or not. It is a really stupid and dangerous thing to do, and I have seen it done so many times. And also seen the rider get thrown and or run away with. No fault of the horse, just the dumb person who hit the horse. And that person almost always blames either the horse or the rider, never himself.

I once had this school horse that I was working with and he was kind of a big horse for me and I couldn't control him too well when I was in the barn trying to put him on the cross-ties. An instructor took a crop and whacked him a little on the side of the neck to get him to back up since the horse wasn't listening to me. That's the kind of discipline I saw being used if a horse misbehaved. That was a bit disturbing.

I think that would be very disturbing.
I can use a whip unbelieveabley and precisely. Star is used to whips around her.
I use them to desensitize her, like a rope. They have never been used harshly with her for any reason.
An extention of my arm.
The stable I go to ride, the owner and trainer, wants us to use a whip to encourage the horses to move. I explained to her, I would prefer not to please and she was OK with that, it's my dollar she said.
Just by my body language I encourge old poky Smoky to move a bit.
I can't watch the eventing I see on TV because of the whips.
The thing that gets me is if a person was to use a whip on a dog, in public, everyone would have a fit. For some strange reason you can use it on a horse and that's acceptable.
That is why we as horsepeople have to get Monty's message out there as much as possible, Violence is not the answer.
I had someone on my youtube account say that our way of training was stupid and that we are making dangerous animals. Said they had a horse for over a decade and a half and of course had to whip it into shape.
Wonder what happened to that horse???

Yeah Rhonda I wonder, I think they made a dangerous horse!

Ronda - sadly there are some people who will always think they know best and just don't want to believe there is a better way. All we can do is keep spreading the message - maybe one day Monty's way will become the normal way and the cruel methods will be obliterated.

I dont think there is ever just one way being the right way MY belief is coming around to a more natural way and i love montys ways and ideas i dont agree with all of them though. one of the things im learning is to take what works for me and oscar and make it our way ! today i used a long training whip but my use was with a plastic bag on the end useful in this way for me . But monty talks about draging his boot down the hoof if the horse bites ? oscar niped my arm today my reaction quck tap to the nose not hard intentional and that was the end of that right way wrong way our way?Somtimes there is so much advice out there good bad and otherwise that i started to loose sight of our way! and thats a daily evolving thing spending time with each other geting to know each other and learning from here .I do give thanks for montys journey and all he teachs that way i take bits from a wise old soul who walks his talk .happy horsing

For me, I already have a head shy horse and "tapping" her on the head area at all would cause me to be back at step one.
When I first got Star she would go to nip and I did as Monty suggested, distract her, and it worked beautifully.
She has never bitten but being a mare she will test us.
Now all I have to do is lift my finger and say no, I don't think so.
She hasn't even attempted for some time.
I have tried many different training methods and I find that Monty's way works.
Not to say that others do not but basically I believe his overall message is non-violence.
What ever works as long as it is non-violent.
Example is Florian on the UNI here.
I loved the way Monty was impressed by his method of getting the horse to park.
My Dad use to say there is more than one way to skin a cat,but it's still a cat!!
Have a great day everyone.

Hi Ronda - I agree, whatever non violent way works. For me I like Monty's methods because they are very clear and easy to understand, but some people like Parelli or a mixture of the two, or other similar methods. People and horses are all individuals, but the main thing I think we would all agree on is what Monty has said time and time again 'Violence is never the answer'.

Monty's methods top it off for me, that's why I'm a member here.

Hi everyone.

Whips can be very sweet and good!

I am a dressage rider with no spurs or whips, but in the same mood Monty "invented" the sweetened bit (honey), I've developed a new dressage whip with:
1) thin flexible carbon fiber (official lenght, bought in any fishing rod repair shop)
2) feathers in the low end (starting 10 inches from the end of it and from fly fishing feathers and ties) - so all that ever touches the horse are LOTS of feathers;
3) tennis racket grip in the high end to balance and proper grip

Why I did so if I was already not using whips? 'Cause as horses can feel a fly in its back, I want to make use of it, to lighten even more my non-spured cues and therefore make them more precise and the my horse more responsive to energy input cues.

Besides it's way cheaper than a regular dressage whip.

Have fun (you and your horses)!

That sounds like a great invention, pedrobt2007a2010! Smart thinking.
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My POV? I don't mind spurs or whips as long as they are used in a non-abusive way. Also, some riders do *need* a whip to ride at all. Take riders with a physical challenge, for example!
And in driving it is essential to give directions.
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Echoing what has been said both here and in other threads - but by quoting (my favorite)TV-show "Charmed":
"Powers in themselves are not evil, it's how you use them" ;)

pedrobt2007a2010, what a clever idea!

Aha Pedro!I use a feather duster often,(chicken feathers on narrow long cane)when something of a light arm extension is required.I used it when working with bargy anglo arab who had been abused and wanted to lean into handler, in self defence.Quickly he respecting my space as I walked with the duster held with the feather bouquet between his cheek and my shoulder.A soft option where safe space is needed. The bulk of the duster is quite powerful and you can touch the horse with it to keep him off you if needed with zero possibility of doing harm.I can now also dust him off with it before saddling!Would an average cowboy want to be seen with a feather duster though?noooooo...:)

Sasafras, that made me laugh. I can just see the cowboys at the ranch my husband works on featherdusting their horses! But who knows, they stand around talking about clothes!

I love the idea of using a feather duster, what a great idea to keep space between you and your horse without fear of pain. I might have to try this little trick...

LOL at the cowboys with feather dusters, but I like that idea! :) "Mr. Smartypants" likes to take his chances on who's in charge sometimes when things aren't according to his liking. This sounds like the perfect way to put him out of his ideas. (Anyone knows what happens if he takes a bite? He loves to take things in his mouth.)