Hi there i have had my first horse for 6 months and have had a fair amount of trouble catching him, some days he comes straight over when i call him, other days he looks up & completely ignores me. I do approach & retreat i try to walk as slow as possible with my eyes to the floor but when i approach he turns his bum to me?!
I know this sounds silly but the weather has been bad recently and i have been wearing a long blue trench coat _ i leave the hood down could that be putting him off? i had tried all sorts from ignorning him, leading & petting other horses I have even lay down on the floor or sitting and reading a book - some days it works other times he jst doesnt want to know me.... ps i dont ride him every day when he comes in he gets rubbed down nice massages and lots of hay & food. I do believe in letting him catch me but what do you do when he doesnt want to catch you? also i have noticed that if someone else comes over he is absoloutely fine and comes over.......what am i doing wrong?
thanks michelle x
Dear Michelle, I have no solution for your problem. But I am thinking a lot about what happens in those horses minds. My idea is that they see you as a picture (that may vary with clothes, hat and so on), then they associate that picture to something else that another time happened immediatly after they have been caught. My first idea is "separation from the herd". Today I caught a young difficult horse from a big pasture, no doubt that this was the problem. Probably they can also add with time "go to the barn" - "go to work", or positivly "go to eat". I am actually trying to reduce the separation anxiety by turning back several times, with a growing distance.
Michelle, I understand what you're dealing with. I have had the same problem and am still trying to figure out what to do. I'll look forward to what other people can offer to help.
Hi Michelle - it could be the trench coat as it may remind him of some bad experience he has had in the past with someone in a trench coat. It sounds as if you are doing all the right things but maybe he needs more encouragement. Have you done join up with him already? That may help as once you have done that you should be able to send him away in the field and then turn and invite him to come to you. Bit difficult with other horses with him. In this situation I would use food rewards but I am hesitant to suggest this on this forum. You would not have to use them every time just often enough to get him to come to you willingly. Plus when he does come to you willingly don't catch him every time - sometimes just give him a reward and a good rub down on his head and neck and then leave him.
Hi Michelle
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I have found that join-up really helps with this kind of thing. One of my mares would take off like a rocket when she saw me when we first got her. I did join-up and some ground work exercises with her on consecutive days for about 5 days and have very few problems with her now.
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I also found that after join-up, this mare didn't turn her bum on me very often. She is now more likely to face me when I approach (which makes me feel safer).
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I also agree with Michelle in that sometimes when you catch him, just give him a rub or whatever and then just leave. Don't always catch him for work. Monty Roberts may have mentioned that in the Catching Your Horse in the Pasture video too...
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A predator never makes contact and leaves :-)
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Rudi makes an interesting point about seeing us as a picture. I have seen horses and dogs for that matter who will not go near people wearing certain things like hats etc.
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Good luck Michelle, I hope it works out for you.
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Kind regards,
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Gen
Sorry, I meant to say that I agree with Maggie regarding her comment about not always catching him for work. Sorry Maggie and Michelle, I got mixed up with your names :-)
I am new to horses and horse training. I have three horses and one more to arrive this month! When we first got them (about 8 months ago now) they would make a game of 'run away' when we went out to get them. I must say, in a big field that is not fun :S. Long story short.... I used treats (small bucket with grain) and now they come running to me from the lower fields when I call for them.
I no longer take treats to the gate with me, though I do take them up to the barn and give them some grain.
I have recently joined this site and have only completed about 60 lessons of Equus University. Please forgive my lack of knowledge if this is bad advise........ Shelly
shellymarie - my view here is if it works for you then why abandon it? You have had great success with your horses and they have learnt to trust you and come to you so well done!. There is considerable controversy as to whether or not treats(bits of carrot, licorice, bread etc.) should be given. However in your case you are using a bucket and grain and not giving treats from your hand as I do so I believe this should be acceptable to both sides of the controversy.
Hi,
I have the same problem as you with one of my ponies and i just take a plastic bag and put one or two stones in and shake it as i call her name - she usually then comes trotting over with no hesitation,
i hope this helps
Ellie
Hello Michelle.
First off, I think you basically have the right approach.
Something that could have an effect is the following.
When we work with horses and want to do it really well -which is the preffered attitude ^_^- we can sometimes get insecure. Make up whole stories that are far away from a horses thinking/experience pattern. We can get insecure not only in how to deal with a problem but also in execution of our found solution. Especially if you're new to working with horses -it's a bit more complex then, let's say, a motorcycle. This brings a tension along. Horses sence this. Also if you're starting to doubt, they will pick that up immediately. And remember it.
So just keep up the good work and you will see, the more experienced you become and more sure of your actions, the more consistent you will reach your goals.
Horses, like humans, have good and bad days, but putting that asside... practice, practice, practice.
And so we keep on learning! ^_^
I solved a long term catching problem one issue at a time. I offer this as food for thought.
My mare had been - I'm guessing - abused by teenagers (before she came to me) who had found her hard to catch - you know, beat the hell out of her when they catch her for being so tricky to catch. Plus she was sensitive to touch. Plus she has trigeminal neuralgia. Plus she can be mareish in season.
I worked to desensitise her to touch. She is on regumate through the summer. I leave a head collar on her - field safe - so minimal head contact when she is caught. I use a light black cord to hitch on to her, never go with a headcollar or a heavy leadrope. She gets a really tasty feed with NO nasty tasting additives. Including treats when she is caught. Brown seeded bread realy motivates her. For ages I used a nose net in the field as well as ridden. I make sure MY mood is good when I go to her - never angry or stressed. I never trail after her or do anything she could interpret as me wanting her to go away. She can read my mind - no good planning - in frustration - a trip to the dog meat factory if she takes forever to catch - she'll take forever!!
My breakthrough came when I accepted she was doing what I was asking her to do - and it was me had to change if I wanted her to change what she did. She is an angel under saddle, no way did she turn into an uncooperative monster once she was free.
Those of us who accept that can catch her now - easily. But there are still those who think 'she will get used to ' them - no no no. She was responding to my body language and it was me had to change.
Someone tried the Parelli catching game on her - I can't get near her with a head collar now, but once she is caught I can put it on her.
She is still very ticklish and would probably rather shiver than have a rug put on - but she is a joy to catch now - for those of us who can!!
Just some learnt pointers from years of a journey that ended in success.
Well done amurraysmith and good advice. I am pleased to note that someone else uses treats to catch nervous horses as they do work amazingly.
Greetings
A friend of mine that stabled his horse with me many years ago fell on hard times and had to move his horse to pasture. Our farrier had a 600 acre ranch that went from flat to up a large hill. We took his mare there and off she went. Came back a few weeks later to check on her and she was no were to be seen. In my mind I though great now we get to climb the hill and look for the girl. My friend whistled and slapped the side of his leg. His mare came running off the top of the hill straight to him. I was amazed and while all my horse have been easy catchers I have never been able to duplicate what he did. Thinking about the years we stabled to gather he always slapped the side of his leg while approaching his horse and the horse would meet him half way. He was consistent in how he caught his horse as well as being a very quite horseman.
Michelle if you can catch your horse the same way every time eventually he will be an easy catcher, Gens suggestion of Join up with Follow Up is a good place to start. Remember that you are not your horses buddy, but rather his leader and he needs to respect you and your commands. Paying too much attention to a horse (fussing with them) can undo all the work that you try to active through Join Up. Horses do like to play, but with other horses not its leader.
One other thing. You mentioned a blue coat and your horses reaction. My horse hates blue stuff. You can put a blue chalk line on the ground and he will stop and not cross it. Maybe that is why they use a blue tarp to desensitize horses and get them to walk on it. Just a thought.
Cheers
Just an add on,amurraysmith. I was somewhat glib with my response to you above. You have used treats with success to catch your nervous mare so well done but please be mindful of doing so and how you do it and note that Monty does not recommend the use of treats. If you do use treats it is very important for your horse to understand that you are in charge of them and that they are only given for good behaviour. Your horse must not look for the treats on you or be at all bossy with you when you have them - if this happens stop using them as they are not serving their correct purpose. As forum readers know I do use treats and have had huge success with them particularly with nervous, frightened horses but I am very mindful of the possible problems they may cause if not correctly used. I give treats when moving around in the paddock but only when my horses are behaving submissively and appropriately. If they show any bossy tendencies I immediately send them away and no treats! Dennis's advice above, as always, is great and if you can train your horse to do this then you are made. I am wondering if the whistling and slapping of his friends side was initially associated with a food reward or not?
Maggie
There were not food treats but just great attention to his mare. They definitely connected with one another. At that time I had a quarter horse mare that was the boss of the pasture. Except with my friends mare. His mare would just ignore my mares dominance but they always got along.
Good rubs and attention can be just as effective as food rewards, but take longer to gain the full effect of the affection
Cheers
Hi Michelle,
When I read your post you said the horse turns his back to you. That is a sign of deep disrespect.
As was suggested do join-up, even in the big field, rather that trying to apporach him, send him away.
When Monty says send them away, he means send them far away, now.
You can do this by slapping your lead rope on your leg or waving your arms in the air, don't forget the mother-in-law snapping look in your eyes to drive him, eyes on eyes.
They can see almost 2 miles away, remember this, OK.
If he wants to play games, let him, but you are in charge.
There are the videos on join-up and Monty says I want him to go away, I want him to go far away.
This is the opposite to what they expect, therefore it works.
When you have accomplished true join-up and have trust and a bond between you and your horse, it will come to you even if you are a mile away, no matter what you are wearing or the weather.
They know your smell and your DNA registers with them forever. They recieve this DNA through smell or taste.
When I approach a pen that Star is in, she comes running, it's amazing to watch. Sometime I just cluck or say, Star, her head comes up and here she comes, full speed ahead. I have never used food with her, just affection as a reward.
And at my daughters, her horses are amonst the forest and cannot always see her, so when she lets out a whistle they come running, the ground shakes as they approach.
I beleive it's trust between horse and a true horseman, they know when they can trust, look at Monty and how quickly horses respond to him.
Watch your videos, one at a time, maybe several times and follow what Monty instructs and you will have success, I promise.
When the horse approaches you rub his face then his neck...etc. He'll register your smell and kindness with his approaching you.
Rememberber horses build on previous experiences.
You have a great day and build your confidence by watching the videos, OK.
Ronda
Thanks Dennis and I agree with your comments as horses just love been given attention, I just can't resist the bit of carrot as well! Just one other query - when your friend was taining his mare did the mare have other horses as companions or just your friend? Just wondering as when I first bought my QH, Uggs, he initially only had cattle for companions on my parent's property during my fortnights in Melbourne. Each time I returned he was totally obsessed with me - always came galloping up, hung around outside the garden fence, whinnied to me when I went inside the house, if he got lose while I was out fencing he would come and find me and stay close etc. However when I found him a young companion horse for company all this changed. He would still come to me but was not nearly as obsessed with me and would happily go off with his friend and leave me. These days he still comes to the fence when I call him but he prefers Tricka's company to mine!
Ronda, help, wait!!!!
What do you mean that a horse register your DNA?
I thought a horse reconize you through your movements and your smell.
And an other question how far (distance) can horses smell, becauce, if they can't see you and you cluck, wissle or call her name, is it possible that a horse still reconize you by smell and DNA or because of the sound/voice?
Can you explain this to me pleace?
Thanks,
Cheers, May
May very interesting questions.
First about the DNA. When you blow into a horse's nostrils you are offering your DNA and they register this in their memory banks.
Another and better way is to insert your finger or fingers into their mouths and again your DNA is registered, of course you have to use your bare hand.
A horse can be completely blind and still know it's owner by the persons smell or your DNA, your smell is part of your DNA.
They can be deaf and still know the person, again by their smell.
About them reconizing humans by movements, no. Our movements tell the horse if we know what we are doing or if we can be trusted.
A smile means nothing to them, but it does to us because when we smile out adrenelin goes down and we are more relaxed, therefore not a threat to them.
They also do not understand speech, whatever the language, and our tone means nothing to them but again it does to us. If our tone is calm this too indicates that our adrenelin is low and therefore our heartrate is low and the horse feels safe.
Horses only understand equas, that is all!! Movements.
Horses have a sence of smell second only to tracking dogs and can do this at great distances.
Have you ever seen a horse lift it's head while in a pasture and make that funny face with their mouths, that tells you they have smelt something, either good or bad.
Sometimes they will start running because the smell is warning them of danger.
Also, if you are hidden from their sight, perhaps they are in their stalls and have not heard you or seen you, they will lift their heads in anticipation. And if they are hidden by a forest or over a hill and you are out of sight you do not have to be loud to let them know you are there, they use their sences to the fullest, all of them.
This has been their survival skills since they have been created along time ago and has allowed them to survive.
I hope this has helped you and I tried to explain this as clearly as possible, OK.
Ronda
Hi Ronda,
Thank you so much for explaining this to me. It is very clear and I understand more about the horses way of reconizing you.
I just looked on Wickepedia and found out that it is a hormone who gives the smell from the DNA (I realy never thought of that). Just what you say the smell is part of the DNA. It says also, when two persons have a very simular DNA they don't "like" each other. Women smell less than man with the DNA.
Then an other question comes up. Is it possible that a horse can react on your DNA what is simular to someone else who abused the horse and will react on this? Or is the horse so clever that he/she can smell the difference?
Sorry for asking, but that´s how it works with me. When it starts with something, I like to know more.
Thanks again and that you took the time for me.
Cheers, May
Notice the term you used May, similar, not identical. So there lies your answer.
If you personally treat the horse with care and your DNA is registered, that is what and how they will remember you.
Now keep in mind that a horse that has been abused does not trust humans easily and we have to earn that trust.
You know how to do this, right?
On the other hand horses are very sensitive and can read body language, if a person has an aggerssive personality, the horse knows this and will react accordingly. It will be nervous around that person and a nervous horse is a fearful horse and spooks easily.
Monty often says he has been told, my horse is afraid of men/women and his answer to that is nonsence. I'm a man and the horse is not afraid of me. It is the personality and the ignorance of some people that cause the fear for the horse.
Never apoligize to me for asking questions, that is how we gain knowledge and knowledge keeps us from danger.
The more we know the better our teaching will be for our students, the horse!
Ronda
Hi Ronda,
My picture is complete now!!! Thank you.
This is very interesting and my puzzle of understanding more about horses is completing more and more.
Also with the adrenaline going up I understand now more.
For human it is; "Adrenaline is coming in big amounts when there is fear, angre, stress, cold, heat, pain and fysical work. Adrenaline gives also a fight and flight reaction. In danger it is better to fight or flight then waiting and see if you can survive.
The bloodpresure is going up, hartbeat is going up and blood is circulating faster through the body. Your breathing is going faster and your pupil is getting bigger and your hands are going to sweat".
When something happens and the system is going to work, and that happens in a split of a second, the horse can feel and smell that (DNA and adrenaline)from us. And his system says immediatly flight and then in a distance stand still and watch and chew on it.
And it could be the other way around, the horse is acting and we have to react on this. Hum... very interesting.
How incredible is the system of the horse, don't you think?
Am I on the right track, Ronda?
I heard Monty saying serveral times keep your adrenaline down and think about your breathing, now it makes even more sence to me. It is a combination of DNA, smell, adrenaline.
Thank's again.... and uh... I will never say sorry again to you, when I am asking a question, oké.
I am glad you took the time again for me to explain this and I hope there are more of us who can learn from your very clear explanations on this subject.
Have a nice day,
May.
Hi Michelle - I just read your post from a while ago and I was wondering how everything is going with catching your horse?
I'm a real novice so it has been really useful reading your post and other people's advice.
I know with my boys when the weather was warm I got my husband to join me in their field where we just got a couple of chairs out and sat there with them. Eventually they'd come over and hang out with us - they even sometimes sat down right in front of us and sunbathed as we looked on. It was magical - the most amazing bond of trust with both of them sitting down and sometimes laying down.
Since we started doing some training with them I have noticed they aren't quite so keen to hang about. They do come over to see us when we arrive but walk off and do their own thing. They can be reluctant to have their halters put on - they don't run off but equally clearly don't fancy having to go to work.
I've been increasingly thinking that the way to go with this is not to try and catch them or 'do' stuff with them each time we go. That way, at least they won't think "here we go again, we have to do some training!"
I have tried not to go down the treat route particularly as one of my horses can try and be bossy and 'look' for food and nudge me. They had got used to people coming to feed them over the gate and so got to expect it.
I think previous post writers have said they believe that your coat could be a problem and from my small experience I think they may have a point. I know one of my horses went loopy when I turned up with a gardening apron on - it was the noise I think - she associated it with the rustle of plastic - the sound of the bag with food in it. If noises remind them of food and nice things perhaps clothing/visual stimulus can equally incite less pleasant memories?
It would be really interesting to hear what progress you've made.
Best wishes, Lizzie
Hi Lizzie,
Thank you for posting the above! It's so interesting how horses know what's coming, like being caught for work etc.
What I want to suggest for your horses, is to always "end on a positive", have some qualitytime with them right at the end of a work session, take the saddle off and set them free to do whatever they choose for a while, before taking them out of the "work-field".
A like this reward can be a great motivator!
Miriam
Hi Miriam - I always look forward to your advice - thanks for your suggestions above. I can usually end with a 'positive' with the other 2 horses - they get a big fuss and really respond and act like they know they've been really clever and done a good job but Smokey is another case entirely. I guess my walking away from him after giving him a little rub is likely to be his biggest reward.
The other thing is that they are in a big field so I can't take them away from the 'work field' if you know what I mean? I have given them some food in their bucket (not from my hand) after training which I think you suggested before -just some pony mix and a couple of chopped apples (which they love) in the hope that that counts as a positive too.
Lizzie
Dear Lizzie, I have been discussing the same problem under "separation anxiety". From all the comments in the forum and my own growing experience I don't think any more that it is "working" afterwards that lets them hesitate to be caught. We continously speak about the proximity of the events, even of seconds, to create a leraning effect. So, I beleive that the negative feeling must be much closer: separation from the herd. The safer the horse feels, the more difficult catching becomes: big field, big herd, low hierarchical position.
Rudi
Hi there Rudi - your comments are really interesting and I wonder if you could answer some questions for me?
Firstly, my boys are not in a big herd. There are just 2 of them on approx. 3 acres. They were rescued together and are always together - they graze near each other and neither of them wander off to the other side of the field on their own.
When we catch one of them, the other one is always near by. When we are training the 'caught' horse, the other one always comes along and sticks close. I wouldn't have counted that as 'separation' from the herd, but what do you think?
Is it sufficient for one of them to be in a halter for it to be 'separation anxiety' or is it that the horse being caught is anxious that he'll BE separated from the other and hence isn't keen to accept the halter?
I should just clarify that so far, neither has run off or completely refused to accept the halter, rather that they are not always immediately co-operative and may try and walk off when they see the halter coming their way.
I will look up your discussion re: 'separation anxiety' but if you are able to answer some of my questions that would be terrific.
Thanks again for the info. so far, Lizzie
Dear Lizzie
There is obviously a strong bonding between the horses and somehow they have learned that after putting the halter follows a separation. If that theory is right there are the following consequences: 1) The one you discribe already that the second horse will immediatly follow the first, the alternative would be to stay alone. 2)It should be easier to catch the second one, even easier when the first has already been gone away. 3) I am trying to offer an alternative to the separation anxiety using the clicker training and when I move a horse away from the herd I am turning several times to show them that the separation is not for ever. 4) Going many times to the horses without taking them away reduces the strict correlation between putting the halter and going away.
Probably the most important step is trying to understand why things happen. Personally I am much more relaxed and it's fun to see a progress when you follow your ideas. I think you have done this first step already.
Rudi
Hi Lizzie,
After reading the last few posts I would suggest you watch the videos on "Catching your horse in the field" again. Maybe you can see something about your own movements, or even a halter or rope dangling, that you could improve. As Rudi suggests, it's always good to enter the field for several reasons, touch your horse and go away, put a halter on and take it off again, or just come, give a rub and go away. Conditioning to always the same outcome can lead to problems like you describe. Your horses have a very special bond and need more reassurance than others, but the principals are the same for all flight animals.
Miriam