Hi Lucie, you're not doing anything wrong, what you detailed was right for joining up. But you don't need to you are correct in the last bit of your message and your horse already trusts you. Join up is best for when there is no trust and you are trying to gain trust. Things that would be good for getting her ready over the coming months before you start her is to get her used to you being higher than her head, migrating to the mounting block, standing still, popping things on her back, we use large cuddly toys, then I made a pair of legs out of old trousers and boots. You'll have already done these in the lessons if you're followed through step by step. Keep working her with the dually so she gets to understand the release of pressure. You've got the lessons too on fitting the bit. All little lessons that will gradually bring her into riding.
Well Done!! ;)
Mel
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Hi Lucie. I agree with Mel. I have a herd of 4, 2 home bred & Dad (Humphrey) gelded at the age of 6 plus Max, a Welsh A with Cushings. I've had Humphrey since he was 2. He came in something of a state having been kicked in the face & lost a load of first teeth. Thankfully all his second teeth are fine, apart from 1 but that's not a problem. Because Bella suffered an eventually fatal knee injury she needed Humphreys help to raise Kirk & Holy Moley so he's been busy with his family hence why he wasn't started by the age of 7. I made a huge mistake & sent Humphrey to a recommended professional. I was horrified by what was done to him & brought him home. He was with these people for 8 days. My happy, confident, friendly Irish cob stood in the stable totally disconnected for a day. Slowly he started coming out of his shell, again & our trust began to grow again but not with a formal join up as such. I'm at an age where I try to avoid crashing into the ground so I wanted help. I met Stan by pure chance. Stan is 24, has ADHD & had a fear of horses having fallen off & been kicked as a youngster. Stan didn't know how to ride. Humphrey had been terrified & is dreadfully girthy - he crabs sideways & panics, a lot. That was in August this year. Now Stan & Humphrey can go for rides. Humphrey is looking to go exploring & Stan has changed dramatically. It's very basic stuff, bareback but when I went to get Humphrey the professional said "You'll never break that pony using your soft methods!" Well, I didn't but a young man with no knowledge, a lot of problems & a fear of horses did. Oh yes, Stan slide off lots of times but no one was hurt, including Humphrey, who always just stood still & waited for Stan to get back on. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone - it's very much still a slow work in progress but my point is this: TRUST is earned. Join up is a fantastic tool but if you've raised a youngster in the right way it may not be necessary. Your filly seems to trust you so go ahead, at her speed, progressively. With Humphrey we kept each session really short & stopped as soon as he achieved something new, little baby steps. He always came happily to the mounting block. The first day Stan leaned over his back & rubbed him massively. We walked away & returned to the mounting block. We repeated the same thing about 4 or 5 times & Humphrey remained calm throughout so Stan sat on him. He stayed on board for about 10 seconds & at that point we stopped. The following day we followed the previous day's routine but added walking off with Stan on board. We stopped after a few yards & congratulated Humphrey hugely. If you have trouble long lining use a helper to lead her and plastic on a stick. I can now start to address Humphreys fears of any tack other than a Dually - he's so much more open to new things now. Good luck. Cheers. Jo.

Thank you both for your answers and for sharing your experience.
Jo, the second part of you story feels like you're telling my story with my horse.
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Mel, I haven't been following the uni's lessons in order, because my horse didnt respond to it really well, she would get very frustrated and distracted when I did one things isolted from other stuff. I always need to break down the lessons into components and then integrate them gradually into our routine, then I can ask for the actual full exercice.
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Right now she nows standing still, took a while but it's great now; her breeders had already lunged her a couple of times with full tack on last year so that was easy for us. Same thing with coming off pressure, by now we must have done this a million times, the only times she takes a while to respond is when she gets really scared by a particular breed of cows that she's scared of or when we meet other horses (and even then, for her age she controls herself really well). I also take her on dirtbike trails once or twice a week to get her used to the sounds of the woods and to the uneven ground and I take that opportunity to climb on stuff around her, jumps down in front of her, get "tangled" in low branches. I also stand or walk on benches when we're in the village to get her used to me being up, and she'll even allow me to lean on her back like that with or without the saddle. So the mounting block should be pretty easy (i'm doing that this weekend so we'll see).
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As for first riders, she actually already sort of had hers this summer. August was extremely hot so I started getting into the river with her, she was so confortable we got to where the water went up to the middle of her flanks, then I thought she would accept someone on her back that way so I enrolled a rider friend. We did it the way Monty shows in the videos except we were in the water up to her elbows. We did that 10 minutes a day for two weeks about 3 times each week. It went perfectly, by the end of the second day she was actually walking with the rider sitting up straight, at the 5th session i was able to guide her out of the water onto the banks and back to the water with the rider up there.
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I don't count this as being started tough as i was with her on the ground the whole time and whe did like 2 minutes at a time then a long break , then 2 minutes, a break, etc. Also I am aware that the nature of the ground and the water around her made it very difficult for her to have violent reactions, so she will surely react differently on solid ground with me on her back rather than down next to her as usual.
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I'm sorry I digressed here :) but all that to say that I think on the behavior and ground training I think she's ready to be started but she needs a bit more physical preparation, hence the need to start long lining now. I had thought about using my "plastic on a stick" but i wasn't sure that was the right tool, but i'll try. I'll also try with someone leading her but I do have a question about that.
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When she gets spooked her initial reaction can be pretty violent. How can I make sure the person helping me is safe. I mean let's say she bolts forward, i'm worried my helper could get hurt with my lines coming behind him. He will of course be wearing a helmet but maybe you have tips on saety in this situation. I supposed I would have to give my command, he makes her start and once she associates the two i start adding action on the lines ?

wow that's one long answer... I need to tune this down !! ^^

Hi Lucie, I have just gone back over all of the commentary about your original problem with this girl. My thoughts are with Mel that you do not have to retrace the original steps of JOIN-UP. This sounds to me like leading from behind problem which is the precursor to long lineing. There are many ways to accomplish this. However, the easiest transition would be to lead her with a long single line beginning at the normal leading position that you have established with her.[next to her shoulder] Then, after all is going well, let-out a little more line as you fall behind the original starting position. Look for calmness here. Then progressively allow her position to go farther away from your shoulder until she is a body length in front of you. Do this incrementally until she is solid with seeing you as a leader out of the eye on the side that you are on. She needs to respond to all of the commands that you would give if you were on her back. Once this exercise is solid, go to the other side and repeat the steps. Another exercise is to ask her to go through an opening by herself. This is the sending exercise and establishes your CHI or energy and your intention of thought. This exercise will stretch the connection that she feels with you and with habituation becomes a second nature to her. Another exercise that you might try is the side pass [leg yield] with the lead-line. This is done while she is facing a solid object with you standing at her side.[normal leading position] Ask her to go forward which she cannot do because of being blocked by the fence or wall, so she has no choice but to step away from you. You are looking for the legs to cross over both front and behind. This should be accomplished in small and incremental steps. Again, this stretches your intention of energy and the ultimate connection between you two. I hope this helps you in your journey with her. With the work that has been established with her, these are very attainable steps. Bud

Thanks bahila. when you talk about asking through an opening you mean, i go through it with her free than i stand on the other side and invite her to join me ?
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I created a work space in her field, closed with a fence, she comes into it on her own when i call her. Is that the kind of exercises you're recommending.
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I didn't see your suggestion before going leaving this morning, so i tried Mel's suggestion. It went pretty well once i found the right movement with my stick & plastic. She was tense at first then started relaxing. Unfortunately my dog barged in as we were finishing and she hurt him so we ended on a pretty bad note. I am going back this afternoon to do this same exercise again, i think i shouldn't leave her on the memory of me releasing her and rushing out right ? (i mean for our future work on this exercise)

Hi Lucie,

I didn't read through all the posts--other than your original--so if I repeat something others might have said, then just consider it reinforcement. :))
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In my experience --using the round pen to start dozens of young TBreds-- I did come across the few that were so TRUSTING (I'll use that word for the sake of brevity)--that they didn't respond well to being sent away as you described. So...what i did instead was move on to the saddle. Saddle and girth are usually 'awe inspiring' to such quiet horses. Some bolted away, walked away, trotted away, bucked away once the saddle/girth was introduced. This was good! The traditional join-up could then be started from that point--re-saddling at intervals until join-up and uninspired saddling was achieved. In other words no fear--establish of trust.
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I also came across a few that had no reaction to the saddle and girth at all. This was kind of scary because I wondered WHEN they were going to explode--when would the light bulb turn on? With those types I did quite a few sessions trying to get a rise out of them. Some rose to the occasion--some stayed totally quiet and trusting--so much so that I moved on and began to introduce them to a rider.
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I guess the moral of the story is: not all horses need the full join-up. Steps can be skipped and re-introduced when applicable.
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Since riding is the goal, I never spent tons of time lunging and driving and doing all sorts of ground work with younger horses. They get bored, confused, resistant and often Pandora's box opens--the result being an over-fussed with youngster who would have come along just fine without all the relentless older-horse type training.
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The moral to this part of the story--and my personal opinion--is that young horses will learn the finer points as you go along, but with a rider on board. Going in company next to a quiet seasoned, well trained horse is gold!---even if they if they are not buddies the young one will have confidence. Kind of a monkey see-monkey do---going on short rides or a few laps around the riding ring, introducing one new thing each time or every other time (like a half halt for example--or turns to the right or left) and of course one must end the ride on a positive note--AS SOON AS YOU GET the thing you were asking for, or at least a reasonable semblance of it.
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I feel this method is very successful in bringing young horses along. Again just my opinion!
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I apologize for not reading the other posts. Perhaps everything I've said is inapplicable to your situation---and/or you've already made great progress with your horse, via the advice from other posters, along with your own intuition, talent and horse sense. Carry on Macduff!

Thanks katselasdan, I must have written that in my second way too long coment. She already knows and accepts full tack, i take her on trail walks with it all to get her used to all that. She really bucked the first couple of times, now she doesn't care anymore.
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I think she's ready to be started right now to be honest, i just wasn't sure it wouldn't be a mistake. So reading you actually confirms what i tought before even posting.
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I'm gonna try to book an actual working space with sand footing because I work in a field eight now, and get someone to assist in case i have a problem and i'll let you know how it went.

Hi Lucie, Re. asking your horse to go an opening, the idea of the exercise is for your horse to take the lead and go through the opening first while under tack and then waiting for you to follow her through the opening. You will need a short {3-4`] long whip to be used as an EXTENTION OF YOUR ARM and to place your energetic request at her rear end. Also, the lead line should be about 12` in length. I have found that tapeing short piece of pipe insulation [soft Styrofoam] on the end of the whip will help as it presents a soft touch to the horse. Lucie, remember horses can really vary in their learning abilities. You have already have completed precursor to all training of horses, YOU HAVE ESTABLISHED A RELATIONSHIP WITH HER. Long lineing sometimes takes many small steps to accomplish a relaxed, go-ahead horse, but these exercises always seem to work for my young horses. Some, of course, take longer than others, but that could very well be the clarity of my presentation that day. Focal energy is of the utmost importance here. This something that Monty has an abundance of and sometimes is overlooked in the training videos because we tend to focus on just the exercise. Try to focus on exactly what you want your horse to do before you enter into her space. Then, when in her space, be open to what she is saying to you before you energize the training thoughts for the exercise. I try to do this every time with each horse to be trained. It presents an algorithm of learning for both the horse and myself. I hope this can help you. Keep on trying with small steps. THIS WILL HAPPEN FOR YOU.............Bud

Hi Lucie
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Before you go any further with the long lining and all the advice, I think the spookiness needs addressing. I hope you're dog is ok? If she has a violent reaction then someone will be put at risk. Have you gone through the videos for spooking? You'll be able to go onto lesson 2 of this section without needing to do join up. http://www.montyrobertsuniversity.com/training/2031188460
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once you've gone though this video section with her, you'll need to add more and more things into her routine, balls, bags of different colors, size and noise, hose pipe pieces, squeaky toys, flappy things and anything that is different, cats and dogs. Remember the whole time keep your energy levels low and use the dually so that she makes the mistake of it going tight.
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if you work on her becoming non spooky first and have that under control you'll find starting her fully will be safer for you and you won't be as worried about it..
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Love the riding in water to start her, would love to do that.
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Remember incremental steps and keep safe!!
Mel
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Thank you both for the new piece of advice i'll definitely try, i enjoy finding the "keys" with her so there's absolutely no hurry :)
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Mel, first, yes the dog is alright, thank you for asking, I got him back from the vet, we got really lucky he got hit right below the bone, so just a few stiches on his lip and three teeth knocked out.
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I really don't think it was a problem of spookiness though, my dog literaly jumped behind her to her gaskin as i was putting down my stick with the plastic behind her and activating my line to ask her to stop. He usually stays quiet but he also does stuff that i try to discourage like going under her belly, he goes between her legs, snifs her feet when i'm cleaning them, licks her face when she's eating, all sort of stuff like that and she never had a violent reaction so I genuinely thing it was surprise and terrible timing that cause the incident today.
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But i'll definitely go back to the desensitizing exercices for a while if anything to make sure she's alright and ready to continue.
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And yeah, the riding in the water looked really fun, wish it'd been me on her back but she needed me on the ground, hopefully by next summer it'll be me :D

Went back to the desensitizing exercises this morning. First just just the stick with a plastic bag, she was totally fine with it. I started easy since she did react i went a bit faster, making bigger moves, more noise, no reaction. (well a little flaring of the nose at first so...)
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I added a second plastic bag of a different color to the stick, again, no reaction on the flanks and anything "jumping" at her from the sides and the ground.
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I did get some reaction with a downward movement (as described in FMHTY, stick above her head coming down to her withers). So i'll keep working on that one until she doesn't mind.
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Just so i'm sure i'm doing this right, let's say she starts walking away when the stick makes contact with her i follow her movement keeping the stick on her and take it away the moment she stops/relaxes, right?
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Thanks again for your advise guys, everyone around me thinks i'm crazy for not hitting my horse so i can't really ask them for help.

Hi Lucie. Yes, you have the same understanding as I do. Be sure to 'listen' to your filly. Remember, mistakes are learning opportunities. If at any time you get a panicky reaction, stop, relax & restart at a point well within her comfort zone. That is to say, revisit an activity your filly is already confident with & rebuild slowly. You'll find taking this extra time will give you great rewards. Good luck. Keep us posted. Cheers. Jo.

That's right Lucie, stay with her till she stands still the give release = reward. And as jo said keep repeating from a comfy area to the bit she's not sure.
What you can do to to make sure you're breathing properly, which will help her, is as you stroke the stick/bag across her withers breath out, imagine blowing gently across her whithers and blowing the stress she has of that area going away. This will help keep your energy levels low or drop lower and hers to drop.
Good practice for you and your breathing so in the future whatever happens what you practice now will help you get out of sticky situations. ;) x

Hey guys, a quick update.
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Biggest change is i've finally found another horse to put with Dayka (my filly) in her field. She'd been alone since octobre with ponies in the next field. So that didn't help.
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She's now with a 21 year old former broodmare, they get along really well. The change was dramatic, 24Hrs after putting them together Dayka was already accepting stimuli that spooked her just days before. I can also now call her from the end of the field just by looking at her side then crossing to present my shoulder (never could do that from a distance before).
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I'll keep working on the spookyness. Over the last three days, since she didn't react anymore, I've started using the stick from the mounting block, but like i said, since she's got her new friend she's completely relaxed. I've also been walking her further from her on my line (sorry i don't remember who suggested it) and there's some progress.
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Quick word about what Mel said about breathing : I watched the mustang video (the one with beauty and the other wilder mustang). I've tried the loud breathing last time I took her out and (unknowingly) walked by three young stallions, and it's impressive, she was ready to bolt, i did it and ears came forward, head dropped, back relaxed... she really responds well to it (and as a bonus it does relax you too to breathe like that) :)

Fantastic Lucie, it's amazing how much a horse needs a companion in the field with them and not next door, that bit of fence can make all the difference.
Well done with the breathing, it will save you from so many difficult situations, it you do it too when you're grooming Dayka and your new one you'll find grooming will become more special too ;)
Well done!!
Mel
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Wonderful news Lucie, just one tiny tip....just watch they don't overbond and then refuse to be seperated...may not happen but just a little tip to watch for any early signs...or...get another horse so you have three!! haha

Wonderful Lucie; the smell of victory is so-oo sweet. All of these suggestions are tremendous relationship builders between you and your mare. I would think that spending as much time as you can on the grooming aspects so that you might be able to practice matching your breathing technique to her breathing would be a huge benefit. This will help you immensely when riding her, as a connection between you two. Another thought is to tie her after you get done grooming her so that might be able to groom her pasture mate in plain site. This should help you down the line to lessen separation anxiety for the two. I hope this helps you. Bud

I was worried with overbonding too, but she doesn't mind being separated from the older mare.
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She's happy to follow me away from the field, she doesn't call for her friend and she's happy also when we're back but there's no stress or anything that i can tell.
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Working on the spookiness, aside from the other topic i just posted, we're doing good. My friends actually make fun of me for being more stressed out about stuff than my filly. Couple of days ago I made her walk over a pile of tarp with rain water, next to farming equipments and she wind howling, I was really nervous and Dayka was knee deep on tarp looking like she was thinking "yeah i'm on a tarp get over it and let's go back to that green grass over there"
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She really is a pleasure to be around.

Excellent Lucie, so the question is, why are you being nervous of new things, when your horse is saying 'we can do this' ?

I get very insecure around those friends because they think (and never hesitate to remind me) that i'm crazy not to use their traditional methods and that a horse that you don't hit will never respect you.
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So that adds some kind of pressure everytime i'm doing something with my girl and they're around, cause if it doesn't work they'll take that chance to lecture me again
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Ridiculous I know, but it does get to me still.