Hi Kendra, my horse was doing the same thing, he would just take control and start trotting or rushing when he was suppose to be walking, I tried several things until one day I thought I would try a piece of tack called a market Harborough or German martingale, it applies pressure Ina different way it runs through your bit and uses more poll pressure than anything and releases automatically when the horses give, anyway this helped alot by getting him to listen more to a lighter touch of my hand when asking for a halt, but he still would be prone to tanking of when ne felt like it, until one day I had had enough and whenever he decided he was going to dictate the pace I asked him to whoa if he didn't whoa I applied enough pressure on the rein to stop him and made him back up, it took a few goes but eventually he got it and I could here him thinking oh is that all I have to do, he is a ex trotting race horse and had been pulled around by the mouth so much all he new was to fight the bit, but using a bit of different tack which was much kinder and used a different form of pressure has got him listening to me, the secret is that the market harbouragh gives immediately the horse responds, sometime us humans aren't quick enough to feel when the horse is trying , anita australia

Hi Kendrb. Frustration is probably the key word here. Yours is understandable but also Joes too. Let me try & see if I can strip this down so we have a start point & work from there. You bought an 11 year old horse to do simple fun stuff on two years ago. Presumably, when you tried him before buying he did not do this or you thought you could cure it. I have known people to buy one type only to find, two or three days later, they have bought something completely different - when the drugs wear off! Perfectly sound & biddable but now lame and/or angry, mad & too hot to handle. Two years on you have a boy you love & have invested a lot in - but it's not working out. Something needs to change. There are so many possibilities I will need more info. Joe is great when you are on the ground, yes? Was that always the case or did that take time to happen? You have used lots of different tack (equipment) - but you do not have any rosettes on the Uni - do you use a dually? Do you not study Montys methods? I can offer the benefit of my experience but I need to know more first. However, you may find my Max interesting. He was the incredible bucking pony. That was a simple fix. No buck stopper required here. A lead rein pony, who had never been fully trained for a rider, was ridden by a tall adult ( riders feet at ponys knee level ). Walk & trot was lovely. Then rider wanted canter, Max had never been given instructions by a rider for canter & when he failed to understand a whip was used. At that point he bucked off the adult! This sequence was repeated at least twice. We are talking manic bucking. Nothing to do with pain from saddle just simply a very angry welsh pony who was not about to put up with unfair treatment. I offered to see if I could help & over 4 or 5 weekly sessions built up a bond with Max from the ground. When I first rode him he was great. My signals were tactful & his responses were generous but I did not try for canter! The second time I rode him, he bucked. My response was to stand up over his withers. No contact on the bit, no pressure from my legs. He bucked again but my weight was so high and forward he was too low. His reaction? He immediately stopped bucking & looked back at me over each shoulder in turn. I sat down ( very gently ).
We stood, each waiting to see what would happen next. I rubbed his neck to reassure. We then went for a ride and 5 years on he has never bucked with me again. Some horses are naturally forward going & others rush off because they are not in control & fear pain from some source. Joe may have had something happen to cause this behaviour & we need to address that. Please try & give more info & I will give you help. Cheers, Jo

Hi kendrb, This can be very frustrating for the rider, but when you get frustrated, your adrenalin goes sky high then in turn the horses adrenalin goes sky high & then nothing goes well!
You've acknowledged that in your question.
Are you riding him out / hacking/ trail riding him like this?
Have you got an enclosed space you can ride him?
Are you riding him out on his own or with another horse?
What's he like when you ride out with another horse?
lots of questions!

I would start by using the Dually to go over the groundwork again to rebuild trust, then I would ride him in the school with the Dually as well as a mild bit with 2 sets of reins & try to ride him off the Dually.
You say he came with a very severe bit, so he's bound to be very frightened of his mouth & this is why he's running away from it!
You really do need to start again with his mouth & you may well find that once he trusts you NOT to yank him in the mouth, he'll come nice & light for you; you must ride him from your seat, not your hands, meaning sit your bum down in the saddle when you want to stop & try not to use the rein at all, concentrate on doing a few minutes of this every day.
When you start him off in the school, ask him to trot & allow him to go forwards without pulling at him, if you need to, put a neck strap on so you've got that to grab hold of rather than his mouth.

It sounds like he has a big stride & someone has got scared of him going forward & has only made things worse by being too strong with him. If he's got a lovely big stride, he needs to be allowed to use it or his muscles will suffer.
Beryl

Hi Kendra

I feel for you and Joe - it sounds like you are both fed up with each other at the moment :-) Beryl and Jo have asked some good questions so that we can all get a fuller picture of what is happening. Can I ask a couple more questions please? Sorry to bombard you (1)When you say he goes faster do you mean he walks faster or does he break into a trot or a canter; at what point does his pace change i.e after how many steps at walk roughly? (2) have you longlined/lunged him at all, if so does his pace change then or can you keep him in a walk? Thanks.
:
I would say though, that the most important thing you can do now is take a deep breath and imagine you bought Joe today and you are starting again. Your focus is very much on the physical aspects at the moment (what he won't do, equipment etc.) Let's go back to the relationship and how we can support you to engage with his mind. Once his mind is with you, his body will follow.
:
Stay calm Kendra, it can be work, honestly ;-)

Thankyou so much Anita, Jo and Beryl,I will put some more info on “Joe”. I will also look into the tack you suggested Anita since it worked on your trotter.

Beryl when Joe has started taking off I try talking to myself and let out all my breath, push back into my seat-my man only goes faster. When I first took him out at the barn I got him from he took off in a field and the trainer kept yelling”sitback”!! Which I did but there was no stopping him-I finally had to one rein him to stop him-AHA you say that should have been my first clue.
When I bought him I was repeatedly told how smart he was-but… never could get definitive answers on exactly what-not from the barn I bought him from or the owner that was selling him.I wrote to his previous owner but he never responded.
I used to have him at a barn that he shared a corral with a Percheron cross- Joe was the alpha but they got along fine-when I would go out with the other horses I tried to keep Joe behind the Percheron because if he got going fast sometimes he would bump into the Percherons behind and it slowed Joe down for a bit and the Percheron could have cared less. If I was lead, one of my riding companions would yell at me or just turn around and go on her own because Joe was too fast for her horse to keep up.
Joe has always been great from the ground-vet,farrier,walking etc-he even loaded very well when I moved to my present location(1.5 ago).
I told myself that “he is always in a hurry to go somewhere”- I thought maybe that was the way he was trained- I found when I lift my reins he starts quickly walking to very fast walk- I worked with him in the paddock on this-he still reacts when I lift my reins to even just adjust myself.
He is also very sensitive with leg/foot touching-which I believe he was voice taught (though is using selective hearing lately  . I have been working on that as well.
Beryl I have ridden Joe on the trail, in the paddock, in the indoor- as mentioned before is in a hurry to go somewhere!! I would try to circle him to the point of me getting dizzy-yesterday I was walking him through the trails and when we would turn to go around the corner he’d start running-AGHHH- we did this many times-then I brought him to the outside grass field and tried walking around there and though I would stop him and start again he was trying to do his running walk (which is very fast) all the while trying to breath low,push my butt in-I even stuck my feet way out in front to really get my behind in-didn’t help- I proceeded to stop and walk-which he does at a slow rate then get back on only to have him rushing again.
I truly hope I haven’t overwhelmed you ladies-but I thankyou so much for even responding! I’ll stop here, please let me know what else I can supply!!!
Many Many thanks,
Kendra
Massachusetts

Hi, sorry not been around for a couple of weeks, all mad here at the moment.
kendrb Have you had Joe checked for kissing spine? When you lean back in the saddle he speeds up, it may be that he is trying to get away from pain it maybe causing him. Only an x-ray will be able to confirm this.
John a 17 hander I worked on earlier this year had similar reactions to his owner and finally ended up throwing her off badly then rearing and throwing himself over. After lots of massage, not only from myself but several specialists they finally agreed to an x-ray, which showed the kissing spine. He's now getting the exercise and therapy he needs and after several months is accepting his rider again without the pain and seems like a different horse.
With you saying "push back into my seat-my man only goes faster." makes me think he's in pain and when you lean back he's going faster to escape it.
Have you had the vet check him over?
Mel
x

Hi Vicci,
Don't worry ask any question, I appreciate any help-
I will mount him, get myself ready and off we go at a quick running walk( because he wants to not me)- I want to meander at a comfortable walk and he is already doing a quick running walk and will go into a quicker gait/trot if I don't stop him.
I have lunged him and what is funny is he does a great gait which is what he is supposed to do, but when I ride him he paces making for an uncomfortable ride-though he will gait at times which is the best.
Thanks for what I call a little pep talk- when I saw him before work this AM I felt so bad-He is a sweet heart-I just think I'm not communicating well- I'm going to take it slow and start again-thankyou :)

Mel,
I have not had his back checked though he did injure his front leg and was on stall rest for a good year-which has resolved-thankfully. I do get him massaged every month and she has said his back is great though he is weak on one of his hind legs.
I need to schedule his Fall shots- maybe I should have him look at his back at the same time!
Thankyou,
Kendra

Posted a long comment for you but lost it as I lost internet connection. Don't have time to repost now but will do so later to day. Gut feeling that it is his training as a Tennessee Walking horse that is the issue so it will be hard to overcome or eliminate completely but you maybe able to modify it. Add my thoughts of how to do this later.

Hi Maggie, we suffer that in Scotland too so don't feel bad. Joe could have been really compromised by a previous owner. Sounds like you have an uphill journey ahead. Don't give up, it's doable. Go back to ground work. Two long lines, dually halter, lots of repeats & be careful. This guy cab be dangerous but he's a honey so there is hope. He needs to get happy with being ridden & just now he is telling you he's not. Get him in the zone where he is happy before moving on. This fella has issues & you need to make him trust before you can go further. If he's happy with you on the ground then you have a window in. More than that, you need to relax & be really laid back - which it sounds like there is a problem. Keep in touch - we want to help you! Give us blow by blow - we have lives too but we are here to support you ( and Jo ).

Hope this works as I just lost another one! Windy day mat explain it! I gather that your problem with Joe is that he has no brakes and tends to walk to fast then breaks into trot which worries you and annoys friends riding with you as he is walking too fast for their horses to keep up. Not too sure about Tennessee Walking horses but I am assuming that this fellow has developed this habit from his past training. Forced to walk as fast as possible with quite a bit of seat and then a harsh bit to restrain him and keep him at a fast walk. Plus maybe ridden by a male with strong hands. A problem especially if you wish to have a nice easy horse for trial riding as Joe seems to be now responding to past training. Not been naughty but just doing what he has been trained to do but being too strong for you and hence unpleasant to ride out with. All the advice above is great. It may be difficult to eliminate this behaviour completely as it is so ingrained with past training and experiences but you should be able to modify it. Agree with Jo - lots of ground work with the dually and long lines with the aim of having him respond to your voice commands as well as light pressure on the long lines. If he is already good on the ground you are half way there. Now you need to make him responsive to your voice commands -"Whoo up"slow", "faster", "stop" in a safe enclosed area. The aim is to have him listen to your voice commands with the help of the dually and long lines as the reins' bit and your seat do not seem to be helping him much. He is unresponsive to them and seems to be getting confused and mixed messages. Once you have done some re-training with your voice commands with the dually and the long lines then saddle him up and if you are feeling confident enough try riding him in the enclosed area with the dually as your bridle and use your commands now from the saddle. Once you have achieved this then put his bridle and saddle on and take him out by himself with just you letting him know what you may expect from him via your commands with the other aides only lightly applied. If necessary you may need to still circle him or make him back up but try to keep it low key and your own adrenalin down. If he walks to fast then just allow him to stride out keeping a light touch on the bit only correct him if it seems he will break into a trot. Keep on riding him by yourself as then he will not feel that he has to compete with another horse and go faster and faster. Hope this helps. Do keep us in touch with your progress.

Posted quickly before I lost it again - apologies for the typing errors!

I agree with getting his spine checked as matter of urgency, as well as his leg.
If he goes faster when you sit down on him, have you tried lightening your seat & asking him to whoa? Often it works well to do the exact opposite to your usual approach rather than get stronger, but yes, you have definitely inherited very bad training from the previous owner.
Something isn't right, but training or pain needs to be investigated.
It does sound like it's possibly pain related.

Dear kendbr
What happens when your trainer is riding the horse? He might be able to give you some advice. Unfotunately trainers often don't ride the horses of their students, what I think is wrong.
Rudi

You ALL are great,
thanks so much, I'm going to step back, breath and start again-SLOWLY-:)
I need to schedule my fall shots so I will have the vet check his back- though my massage person did not seem to find a problem at that point, but I'll have him check

Rudi I asked my trainer to check out Joe and she was not comfortable at the fast pace he did-now she is probably my age(56 :0) and doesn't want to get hurt-which I totally understand- problem is I cannot bring in any trainer as it's like a closed shop-there are trainers within the barn-which I understand as well- Let me be a little clearer-Joe is not mean in any way-he just is in fast mode when I'm aloft :)
I have racked my brain trying to figure if I could afford to send him to training as well as myself but with a son in college and this being my second career( I was a lineman for our local Telco company making very good wages but was forced to retire after 27 years-now I love my present job as a veterinary assistant but my pay is no where in comparison) I am trying to do it on my own.
I'm sure I don't have to tell any of you it's an expensive hobby but I love him dearly as you all do your own !

As I have been thinking- maybe mentioned before- but when I went back to see( in a video at the barn where I bought him) how Joe was when I first bought him-he was pacing-which is not anywhere as comfortable as gaiting which he should be doing-AND he was very forward when the sellers took me out on a trail ride on him-It's funny until somebody mentions these things you don't think about it.
This is where I miss my grandfather-he was a sulky driver and had thoroughbred's-knew how to pick a horse- oh well always learning-

Sorry for the added info-too many words-just want everyone to know who answered I SO appreciate it and will bring you all along for my "ride".
Kendra

Hi. I used to have a 'cold backed, part bred' Arab. If I put my thumb & second finger either side of his spine and pushed down, sliding my hand towards his bum he would radically dip as the pressure past over the problem areas. He had two fused vertibra & other problems too. We were together for 24 years. We show jumped. We hacked everywhere. We team chased. We had great fun. This fella learnt to jump after I got him & believe you me, he only did what he felt happy doing! I bought him aged 14, as a hack. We won second place in a veterans show jumping class, aged 32 - beaten by a 16 year old thoroughbred. He died, aged 38, in 2005 & I still miss him. I have 5 great characters in my herd & each of them have either given me great joy or will do so in the future ( yearling & foal). Horses & ponies give us so much. Have patience: your boy will repay you tenfold in the long run! Cheers, Jo.

So sweet thanks Jo!
Well yesterday I tried to do another Join Up- which wasn't too bad-though I don't have a round pen, and I did need to coax a little -took it calmly and waited patiently-a few times as he was standing dead still looking at me I could feel him asking "what the heck is she doing":)
Then went into paddock and used one of my older bits and he was not to bad as far as rushing to go fast- walked the whole tie and stopped and restarted to keep at slower pace- wasn't perfect the whole time but was controllable with slight corrections.
My goal is to get in a ride every day to keep the momentum going- I think that would benefit us, I had him in a MikMar bit which was helpful in the beginning but then did not seem effective(w/o curb), I changed to my long shank Imus bit w a curb and worked well, he was responding better- I'm thinking maybe I need to alternate my bits every so often. I also purchased Monty's snaffle to give that a go.
Again thanks to you all and I will post how we do.
Keep Safe,
Kendra and Big Joe

Hi. Do you have a dually head collar? This is a great tool as you can ride in it as well. In Britain we have a bit less bridle called a hackamore. Some are quite severe but you can get milder ones. They act on the poll & tighten round the nose. A dually tightens with a slight twist when pulled from one side. If ithe hackamore has a chain under the chin you need to put on a rubber cover or replace chain with a strap. My thinking is if you change the mode of communication completely & do the training we've already suggested previously in this thread you will effectively be teaching Joe a new way to be ridden & he will be able to react more like you want him too & less as he has been forced to in the past. I'd go slowly & progressively until I could try sitting on his back in a safe, enclosed area. Using the dually with loose reins, I'd gently ask for walk, relaxing in the saddle & avoiding squeezing with my legs - not easy to do I know, I've done it on Max! If Joe speeded up I would change direction. A simple one handed pull & release. The idea being, he will associate speed with turning round & hopefully the penny would drop. The key thing is to be relaxed & calm. Cheers, Jo