Just a couple of things I would suggest, firstly use a longer line, I don't think 20ft is long enough for a horse that bolts away from the trailer. As Monty says, the one who controls the feet controls the relationship, so he is reaffirming this every time he bolts away, a longer line should prevent this.
Secondly, personally I would ask for more backing off the ramp before asking for any more steps forward. I have had horse become fed up of all the backing up and just walk straight in for a change of routine! if he was my horse I would do a session where I had no intention of getting the horse in the trailer, just backing up again and again, just keeping relaxed and breathing - and chances are you will get the horse in the trailer!
Sophie

Thank you Sophie, I'm sorry to say that as I am not Popeye or the Hulk I am not ABLE to hold on to a bolting horse regardless of how long the line is, and sorry to write this, but it is dangerous and ridiculous to suggest to try to hold on to a bolting horse, the longer the line the weaker the 'anchor' - that's just plain common sense.
Same as a dog that won't walk properly on the lead, the longer the lead the ' stronger' the dog.
It's just good old fashioned physics. Weight/ length ratio.

The horse has a greater opportunity to bolt on a long line, and the momentum stronger the further away he is .
Sometimes instead of just watching a Monty video and giving 'that' answer , that solution, you have to use your head.
This is a 'fright/flight' scenario I feel.

PS - it's not my feet that are moving, it's Shilo that's bolting, I am just standing in the trailer, or on the ramp.

Hi Dionne
:
Sometimes when we read something we immediately think makes no sense we fire off a response without taking the time to consider it. I feel you have done this with Sophie's answer. Sophie's suggestion is not "ridiculous"; she has been gracious in offering advice but I feel it perhaps needs elaborating for clarity.
:
First of all, a longer rope IS essential; a longer rope gives you more time to think before you run out of line and he will run out of steam. A shorter line gets snatched away from you. A longer line means you can use "physics" om your favour. It is very difficult to explain the manoeuver that helps with this - I suggest you watch Kelly Marks videos on trailer loading as she talks at length about the strength versus technique issue. You need a lot of practice handling a 30 foot line (it took me ages!) and it is easy to get tangled up so you have to be very confident in handling it. Also work with Shilo to get him to come to you on a longer line. e.g. someone holds him, you reel out the 30 foot line, other person lets go, you quietly pull on the Dually and get him to come forward right up to you) - do this until you are both fluent on a flat surface, then on your pallet etc.
:
Horses don't "just bolt" - there will be a little sequence that they go through that you need to spot as it can happen very quickly and be very subtle, for example his ear will move to the back (if he is bolting straight back) , he may tip his head to the side a little, his eye may move to look behind him etc. etc. He will have his own little quirks that you need to spot very quickly and intercept them the INSTANT you spot it by backing him up so that he learns that preparing to bolt means work (at the moment it means escape and release as you suggest)
:
It's great that you are using a Dually and this is where the long line will help too as he can "run into it" before you run out of line but in order to do this you need to re-arrange your set up.
:
Sophie is right, going backwards off other trailer many times can result in the horse going forwards willingly to stop you from making him go backwards (reverse psychology!)
:
I disagree with you re: fight/fright - I think this has become a self reinforcing behaviour (I think I mentioned this before; bolting is one of these behaviours) and you have both developed this "dance" as it has become habitual. I feel you are doing a great job with Shilo Dionne and you are nearly there but repeating the same thing time and again will lead to Shilo doing exactly that - repeating his thing over and over again - so you need to change the picture.
:
First of all, (if you can) make sure the trailer is facing "home" - Monty says this makes a difference! Second, yes, have something behind him but something like a wall (not a car I agree!) - if you make it about 29 feet away from the trailer he can't snatch the 30 foot line out of your hands and can only run 29 feet backwards (if you can't intercept him in time! Third, putting trailer against the wall and blocking the other side is very good - I can't see the configuration of your environment so will leave you to figure out if you can get a wall to the side and behind). Fourth - I agree about not using treats and I never do HOWEVER there is a place for food when trailer loading. You need a second person on hand if you can. When you DO get him into the trailer give him some really nice food. He then quickly understands that standing on the ramp = work (backwards and forwards) Going in the trailer = no work and tasty food. You must NOT use the food to "bribe" him into the trailer (though of curse there are occasions in an emergency when we have to bribe haha) - the food is the reward for BEING in the trailer not going into it.
:
Good luck :-) Let us know how you get on

Shilo has discovered that I am not able to hold on to him if he runs.
I am not able to hold on to him as I have had spinal surgery.
As I have had this surgery I won't even try to hold him.

A little later on this evening I went for a little walk with Shilo , dually on and my 20 ft line.
We practiced a little sweet spot which always goes very well.
However, as soon as I give Shilo more than approx 1 meter of line - he's gone, doesn't matter which excersise we are trying.

Seems like the 3 times he bolted with me on his back has stayed with him, that's where the problems started.

I wasn't being rude to anybody, a little blunt maybe.

Dionne

I appreciate you have to take extra care after spinal surgery and you are right to not risk hurting yourself. I wonder if Henrik might extend his training plan to include coming to collect Shilo in view of the particular situation you are in.

Hello Dionne, Vicci, Sophie. Sorry to hear about the trailer loading problems with Shilo. After reading the commentary, I must agree with Sophie and Vicci. Sophie points out some great technique when trying to show the horse the easy way, while making the alternate way more difficult. Vicci points out the body language that a horse goes through prior to bolting away from a perceived unsafe environment [trailer]..
.
.My thoughts are that Shilo is demonstrating that he is aware that he cannot be held if he should want his FREEDOM at any given time. I would suggest asking the question--WHY IS HE DOING THIS? and --WHAT CAN I DO TO SUGGEST ANOTHER ACTION?
.
.Dionne, I believe you are wise to get some professional help for Shilo. Your body has been compromised with the surgery, but that does not mean that your dream of riding Shilo should be dashed. You have come great strides in your knowledge and accomplishment as a horsewoman. Your determination is awe inspiring for all of ,us. but we all need a little boost now and then.
.
.Vicci`s idea about asking Henrik to come down and trailer Shilo is certainly another option.
.
.Please be careful.... Bud

Hi. I agree & I speak as someone who has had arthritis in my neck & small of my back, as well as a surgical implant in my left thigh, for over 30 years. Last year my 2 year old bolted. Thankfully, he stayed safe. I ended up on my backside in the road. I plodded after Kirk & when I caught up to him - he'd only run back to his little sister about 400 yards, he hadn't snapped the 12ft line which I moved from the back ring to the side ring on his Dually. Live & learn - used the wrong ring! He started to walk with me but then barged past me, knocking me to my knees in the weeds. I gripped the line, he ran into the halter & was swung round by his own momentum. Kirk was astounded! I got up, rubbed him & started to lead him to the gate - our original destination. Having been on a visit to see the vet this was our return journey. Kirk was still pumped up but I calmly schooled him each time he got his nose in front of my shoulder & we got back to the field without further incident. Kirk wanted to be with his sister & was only stretching his adolescent muscles. This spring I started using electric fencing for the first time in my youngsters experience. They are very respectful of it & the first time Kirk encountered the electric gate he really didn't want to come through it. However, I could hold him with the Dually & just kept asking him to come forwards. It worked. He didn't get to blast off as he'd intended, we both were safe & he knows I'll keep him safe. He's been a gent about leading ever since. You need to stop & change your approach - repetition is only cementing the behaviour. Kirk was 360 kilos to my 75. The Dually stops them from blasting off, when used as Monty describes. Get someone else to be in the trailer, you stay with Shilo & have them stand their ground, on a 30ft line. If you're calm - not easy if you know he's likely to blast away, he might just stay calm too & not blast. Many visits to the ramp & back away again, each time helping you both to gain confidence. If possible, on consecutive days, up the challenge. Rome was not built in a day. Small victories win wars. Good luck. Jo.

Hej all.
Thank you for all of the comments and advice, and Thank you Jo for sharing that with us.
Shilo is 500 kg to my 48 kg- just so you get the picture.
I always train him with the dually on.
This problem has only recently popped up, but thinking about it, I haven't had loading problems with him BEFORE the dreadful experience with an ex-trainer, all of these problems with Shilo have come after that point...
I have tried walking to the ramp, backing, forwards and backwards but again just doing this and Shilo runs. Like I mentioned before, if I give him more than a meter rope between us, then he is just gone.
I'm sad and frustrated as my bond with Shilo has been so very strong, but now it feels like the respect from his side is gone.
It took a year to get such a close bond with him, funny to think that I have ridden him many times at a walk- and then made that stupid mistake with the trainer and now it's all gone.
As for loading on Monday , my husband is going to lead him and I and my 18 year old step son will cross longe lines at the back of him and get him in- not the solution I wish, but one I know works.
I'm now just watching the clock waiting for Monday so we can just get it over and done with.
It's a 2 hour drive to Henriks ranch, and I know I'll have stomach ache all the way there because I know my poor boy will be stressed alone in the trailer.
Might sound like I'm too soft , maybe I am.
Bud, you wrote that Shilo knows he can get his freedom when he wants it, I am in full agreement with you, but yes, WHY IS HE DOING THIS???
when he does get free, he runs around for about 1 minute and then comes back to me, I just don't understand.
This might sound a bit far out but the only other thing that has happened in the last week is that my daughter and I are incommunicado , quite a serious problem has arisen here at home.
Do you think that Shilo is reacting to the sadness I have inside of me because of this?
It wouldn't surprise me one little bit if he senses a change in me because of that, he is a VERY sensitive boy....
Well, I will just have to wait to hear Henriks opinion .

Dionne.

Hello to everyone, Dionne, i should have talked about the fact that Shilo seems to always come back to you after his WALK-ABOUT with freedom. With everything that has been happening, my hope is that when Shilo does return to you after the bolt, that you can smile and discharge your frustration with him. This is really a GOOD THING with him coming back to you.
.
. Horses are always on the LOOK-OUT for a change in leadership that favors them. Once Shilo runs into a taught line and he gets turned around after the bolt, he will recognize the leadership on the other end of the line. His behavior should change immediately. Jo speaks of her experience and the ultimate change. I had an encounter with one of my coming 4 yr. old studmuffins. This is spring time here and all the mares are calling to the stallions. Khol, my black charger, is about ready to jump out of his skin on hormone overload. He has taken up striking along with his prancing around to the estrogen aroma. When this happens, I always do my best to simmer him down to a controlled roar. This can be very difficult as their inclinations are strong. He was in the round pen on Sunday when I heard the whole pen start shaking. He had struck at the mares that were 50 meters away and hung up hs left foot through the rails. By the time I got him free he had broken through the rail that was holding him hostage and managed to cut himself on the heel just below the cornet band. Since that time, he has been an absolute sweetheart to handle, as my wife and I are treating his wounds. My point to this story is that horses can change quickly, if the leadership is true. I have no doubt in the world that Shilo can also
.
.Now to the last part of what you wrote, Dionne. I think you might be on to something regarding your daughter. Horses go way beyond what we are aware of with their understanding of emotional sensitivities. I would suggest that you and Shilo have a heart to heart about how you are feeling. He might surprise you with the answers that you receive. There is always a pathway for us. We just have to take a moment of pause and believe.
.
.All ny best Bud

Hi Dionne and all,
adding to all great advice above, I would like to share with you, what we learned at the Advanced Course. It's called "ski-ing"..., that means you prepare yourself to hold onto a horse that takes off like Shilo does. Just imagine a bodystance like waterskiing, your weight a little behind the vertical, knees a little bended. Now you have the coils of your longline in your right hand, place that hand slightly behind your right hipbone. The left hand holds the line, like you would put your whole weight into the pressure on the line.
It prevents you from falling over when there's pressure on the line. This gives you time to surprise the horse when it takes off, now you can slowly let go coil after coil, should it be necessary and still hold on to the horse. The momentum is your gain, the skiing could be your holding on and let yourself being dragged on a little, still you're as much as possible in control of the horse. It may seem dangerous, but it's less so than being surprised by a horse that takes you wherever he thinks he needs to go.
You can ask someone to play the scene with you, be your horse, so you can get the feeling of it...
I know it's hard to trust your own body and strength after surgery, I've been through that too, still it gives you more security to know you have this technique at hand than to be blown off, whenever the horse decides to take off.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't find out why he shows the behavior....
Stay safe,
Miriam

Great stuff Miriam :-)

Hi. What you're proposing for Monday will serve to further damage your relationship with Shilo as you will not be giving him any choice. Put him on a 30ft line, put your son & husband on the other end in the trailer - once they've watched Monty stopping a runaway. Lead Shilo to the trailer. Let him teach himself by running into the Dually. Your guys should brace themselves - feet a part with one slightly forward & probably wear gloves. Trust the Dually- it's a brilliant tool. Once Shilo loads, repeatedly take him on & off until he is really happy. Do this & Monday will be the first steps toward repairing your trust. My Humphrey has had lameness for 12 weeks which vet has pinpointed to his pastern with nerve blocks. He's on pain relief & is getting better but no cause obvious. However, we have a consequence; now he evades being haltered & wouldn't let me touch his legs let alone pick up his feet. Nerve blocks involved multiple injections into his foot. Solution: when he was 2 he came to me but no one had touched his feet so we worked whilst he eat breakfast. In 3 days he was anticipating & putting his feet into my hand. Yesterday we revisited his training from 6 years ago & in 2 sessions I can handle his feet. We are rebuilding the trust. Good luck & stay safe. Jo.

Miriam, your STAR has never shown brighter. Great information my friend.
.
Jo, your right-on with trailer loading scenario and for the boys helping Dionne.
.
.GREAT STUFF bUD

Hello one and all.

Thanks for all of your advice, however, i am going to disagree with you all .( sorry )
AND I don't want to offend anybody.....
This is Monday, at 0700 hrs this morning I was no closer to be able to load Shilo into the trailer.
I tried everything that you all have suggested, however , hanging on to the longe line was not ever going to happen, .
My husband and I after 1 hour trying to load walked Shilo back to the paddock.
Then I sat down with my tea and a smoke! and I thought about something a lady who had breed welsh cobs for many years once said to me and that was " you can't discuss with a welsh cob".
which at the time I thought was a silly thing to say until this morning.
After drinking my tea, I took hold of our mare and our Shetland pony and put them in the stable where Shilo could not see them.
The trailer and car were parked in the paddock.
I then took Shilo's best friend Mammuth in a head collar and lead into the trailer where my husband was waiting with treats.
I let Shilo just walk around outside the trailer as he wished but concentrated on Mammuth.
Shilo came to the ramp and of course wanted a treat too and I told my husband not to give one single treat until Shilo was completely inside the trailer.
I told my husband that this must be Shilo's free will to come in the trailer, and if he does, he gets a treat, if he wants to back out then let him and we will just concentrate on Mammuth.
Sure enough about 5 minutes elapsed and Shilo stood inside the trailer, butt and all !!
He backed out and then came back, this continued for about 10 minutes, gaining confidence each time, which was obvious to see in him.
Then when Shilo was once again all inside the trailer, I took my grooming brush and brushed him , starting at his neck and worked my way down to where I stood at the back of him and brushed him.
He was very calm, so I put the butt bar down, fastened him to the trailer tie, closed the ramp- without Mammuth inside and took a few minutes just talking to him and telling him how good is is. we drove up to the Mustang trainer which took 2 hours and Shilo was about 95% calm when I unloaded him.

He is now running around a massive paddock with about 7 new friends ....... And so his training starts.
I did speak to the mustang trainer Henrik about ' holding on' to a bolting horse...... I won't repeat his comments, as I may get barred from the forum - but just add that in so many words he said that he wouldn't try to and would never advise others to either, which does not mean that the horse gets his wish, just that there are other ways of doing things.
He congratulated me on thinking outside the box with the loading problem.
His first impressions of Shilo are that he is a very robust, compact, healthy ,happy and balanced pony who somewhere along the line has lost interest in people.

Mission accomplished, a happy horse in the trailer without use of force, and a happy owner looking forward to the next 6 weeks of training.
And no..... I couldn't discuss with a welsh cob.
Dionne.

.

Hi Dionne,
First of all congratulations on your very good work this morning,once again you made the diffference for your horse! You and only you know him, have a relationship with him and can judge what he needs at any given moment. As Monty says: " You are responsible for your horse and for your actions!"
I'm sure none of us here on the forum has any resentment about you finding the best solution for your own horse, maybe that's one of the most important roles this forum can play in all of our lives.
Now I feel I have to come back to -holding on to a bolting horse-, does Henrik use a Dually halter? Of course you can never win a struggle with a horse, but you can anticipate and stop the bolting before it happens. You may never want to use it, but there might come a moment, when it's good to remember you have this "tool" in your kit...
Let the good feelings settle in and Shilo too!
Please keep us posted on his progress,
Miriam

Hello Dionne and congratulations my friend. You found a way, a new path and I bet that you feel exhilarated. Again, congratulations on your thought process. The beautiful thing about this forum is that we ALL bring different experiences with our horses..That means that we all can grow in our wisdom about the horse expotentially. You have given us pause to consider what could be a problem with trailer loading a horse and a different approach for a successful load. GREAT JOB to both you and your husband.
.
.I find myself going back to Miriam`s second comment about your trainer Henrik. From his point of view I understand his comment, however for the most part of his business, he deals with the MUSTANG in various stages of domestication. An American mustang will probably bring 20% more body strength to the original training process than a horse in domestication for all of his life before the training. I mention this point only because Henrik probably does not even attempt holding onto the wildness that a mustang bring to the table. Holding onto a bolting horse is all about angles and anticipation and leverage from the halter; not everyone can be successful even if they are down the line with their knowledge of horses.
.
.Dionne, I will mention something for you to ponder while Shilo is in someone else`s dominion. During this time, I would suggest using caution when talking to Henrik about Shilo and how you see training horses. Everyone does things somewhat differently and you have decided that Henrik can help Shilo with his cup of worry. LET HIM DO JUST THAT. You have been so emotionally tied to helping Shilo be that special riding horse and it is difficult to LET GO. I know it would be for me.
.
.You have just had a monumental breakthrough with the trailer loading issue. That is huge with any horseman. I would bet that you already have Henrik`s respect. I know that have our`s.
By all means keep us posted, PLEASE.
Bud

oops; next to last sentence should read, "I know that YOU have our`s".

Hi Bud.
I completely understand what you mean when you write of domesticating wild mustangs and the strength ratio, and I agree.
I have told Henrik just about everything I can about Shilo and have promised myself to stay away until he wants me there, this is very important- that I do understand.
It's a good thing that the ranch is quite a long way from my house so that I can't just be tempted to pop over !
I am fully expecting a new set of rules and regs when I eventually get Shilo home again, and I will accept them with gratitude.
After Shilo has been there for about 2 weeks will Henrik begin with his training, when it gets to actually riding Shilo , and after Henriks rider has done his work , I will be allowed ( requested) to take part....so another learning curve starts!!
I know , without sounding pompous, that I have done a good job with Shilo's ground work, but I also know that I reached the end of my competence and that trying to go further alone might of ruined Shilo.
You should have seen him yesterday when he was released into his new flock, WOW WOW AND WOW, there are I think 8 other horses in his massive field, the field is very hilly , lots of ups and downs, and he just completely lost it !!! The whole flock ran with Shilo somewhere in the middle and it was like looking and listening to a freight train coming, the power and majesty if these creatures when allowed to be themselves together is just incredible, brought a tear to my eye I don't mind telling you. There was one great big horse that protected Shilo from the first minute, the others were allowed to sniff Shilo at the big horses bequest , and ONLY then. Fantastic to be a witness to that. So, Shilo stuck to this big boy like glue!!
I have a very good feeling about Henrik and the ranch in general, the other horses all look very healthy and happy, they are all curious and not afraid of humans.
I went to bed last night very happy and not at all worried.
I have a log in to cameras around the ranch and can see Shilo whenever I want.
Also, this camera deal is a thing that makes me happy too, it's so transparent, they have nothing to hide at the ranch , and it gives a good feeling of reassurance.
Well, enough from me.
I'll keep you posted.

Your friend. Dionne.

Sorry Miriam, I totally forgot to answer your question.
No, Henrik doesn't work with a Dually halter.
He has heard of them, and he knows that my intention is to ride Shilo in his dually and then later down the line I would like to use a bitless halter with side pull I bought from Austrailia.
It's a combo of a rope halter and head stall without a bit, it's the most gentle head gear I have ever seen, - well, that's the goal anyway.
The bridle is from a company called ' Lightrider' , they have a website if you want to check it out, there's also something on YouTube about them if you look..
Thank you for writing that 'you can never win a struggle with a horse', I feel that most of the others here on the uni who have commented this thread haven't read properly, or maybe not understood what I was trying to describe.
I did have to laugh when you wrote about skiing!! I have skied after Shilo a couple of times trying to hold on....I'm sure Shilo was laughing at me , just one toss of his head and I'm out of there!!!!
Yes, I am very pleased about the 'victory' of mind over matter in the case of loading Shilo.
I don't want to sound like I'm bashing Monty and his methods, EVERYTHING else I have learned from Montys videos has worked with Shilo , just not the loading.
I have massive respect for Monty Roberts and his ability and knowledge of horses, that's why I am a member of this Uni, however, I'm trying to keep an open mind about Shilo's training and not sticking to just one method, I get input from many other horse trainers, - Missy Wrynn, and Rick Gore for example, Clinton Anderson with some things, but his methods can be too harsh for me and Shilo.
Anyway, enough babble from me.
Sorry I overlooked your question.

Dionne.

I'm glad you found a trainer for Shilo, I hope you'll get great results :).
.
I just wanted to comment on the last part of your previous comment "I don't want to sound like I'm bashing Monty and his methods". I don't think the most important is whose process you follow step by step and whose pratical exercices you emulate but rather the concept of working in a violence-free environement, respecting your horse and its needs. I don't know those other trainers you mentionned, but i think regardless of the person, it's the concept that matters.
.
So great job on finding a way to adapt the concept to load Shilo, that's what matters in the end :)

Good morning Dionne and all.
.I applaud your thinking Dionne and the course that you have taken.
.
What you have described about how Henrik`s horses are kept in a large pasture with lots of room to run sounds the same as we keep horses at Skyhaven. You will see a difference in Shilo when his training comes to an end at that facility. GREAT FIND!!!!!!!
.
The horse that you saw that took a shine to Shilo and assumed the role as his guardian, is exactly the horse type that I wrote about to Lucie as she goes about on her quest to find another horse. In my experience, these type horses are in another league with their connection to their owners. They seem to approach life in a much more confident manner.
.
.The Akido, martial artist, Mark Rashid is another trainer that I deeply respect. He can really help a person`s riding skills with hiscore energy concepts

`sorry hit the wrong key. Anyway, you have done a wonderful thing for Shilo. I look forward to the time that you and Shilo head out on the trail together.
.All my best
.
Bud

When Henrik first started to import these Mustangs, he was told that he would need to own half of Jylland if he really wanted to give the horses a home from home, these Mustangs in the wild go for miles and miles looking for food and water, Henrik I feel has done a really good jod in what he has done with the horses , it's a massive place and I think there are 5 fields in all where the horses are split up into different flocks.
Now he's looking for a new place, with even bigger land...
I'm also really looking forward to trail riding with Shilo, it's the dream of my life.

Hi Dionne,
Thank you for coming back to my question about the Dually halter! Important is that things work for you, not whose method it is you follow...as Lucie wrote already.
I'm th first to admit that some things are not the best for some people, I remember that after my back surgery I felt insecure walking backwards when doing Duallywork. No problem, just found another way of asking the same question to the horse.
I'm so pleased to see Shilo is in good hands and you're confident about his and your future together. That's all that matters.
The best of wishes,
Miriam

Love that you are finding new ways of communicating successfully with Shilo! That's true horsemanship to me. :)
Next time you are up on him, remember to smile! ;)

Kikki, next gang I'm up on him I'll probably be in tears !!!!

Hi-hi, but I bet you will be smiling through them!! :D

Yep !!

Hello, all; I'm back...Dionne, I can sooo feel your frustration and your joy at success. I still have issues with Kava but his trailer loading refusals are getting shorter and less violent. He will easily load with me in front of him and stand if I'm beside him, but the minute I back away to swing the partition closed he rapidly backs out. So, I have been using the 30' line threading through the back window and through the trailer to hos dually. Once he feels the tug he will self load and stand with his head out the window. I can then close the gate while on the ground. There is a small tub of feed waiting for him when he is inside. Whew! Now I have a funny question: As the horse is being asked to load where should we be focusing our eyes? On his eyes, telling him to stay where he is? Softer, telling him all is well? Any thoughts? Many thanks, and good journey, Dionne. too bad our "road map" has such fine print! Sharon

Hello Sharon.
I don't look into Shillos eyes because it tells the horse to go away.
I look at the chest area.
When I successfully loaded Shilo I looked everywhere else but into his eyes.
Good for you that you have found a solution to your loading problem.
All the best

Dionne