A sticky situation all around I think. Im glad to hear that the political side is going fairly well, and that you will have some time without the owner hovering over you and criticizing your work. As to tacking up, 17 months I would think would be safe to tack up, ie placing a saddle and bridle on, providing they don't have wolf teeth. More than this I would just be speculating; I hope Paul and Vicci see this...

Yes, I'm worried about the wolf teeth too. Wish we could tag people lol.
Apparently one needs to break horses in before they "get too big and strong". Goodness me...

Too hard Megan! I think this has the potential to break your heart plus the risks are too high. I wouldn't take it on if I was you.

Well, 17 months is way too young to start any horse, but if the "senile one" is going to put them in the hands of some "nut job" if you don't do it...?? You can't save the world all by yourself.

I've started a lot of horses, and the best advice is Maggie's...the risks for you are way too high. But if you are going to take this on, let us know, and we can take it from there.

Oh! :( Lol, I hate it when rational advice is contrary to what my heart makes me do. Paul, you know every time someone tells me I can't save all the horses in the world it's like a personal challenge? Hahaha...

In all seriousness, I'm going to do it. Yes, if it's not me it's the old fashioned way for them. I will drag it out as long as I dare and pull out when I must. I met them yesterday afternoon & didn't they just melt my heart! So inquisitive, unassuming, and so cute! (Interestingly, the grandsire of 2 of them is Redoubt's Choice. For those of you who care about racing (not me), he sired the Australian record-breaking $5m colt, half brother of Black Cavier.)
They are in a 5 acre paddock with mum. I'm going to see if I can do a paddock join-up with the first one this afternoon, and do as much research on early training, racing and associated dangers as quickly as possible. Thank you in advance, everyone, for all your help. I need this uni more than ever before right now.

*Redoute, sorry

Best of luck then, and hopefully nobody gets hurt.

Sould, I am flattered that you think I may have thoughts on this, thankyou (she says blushing!). I do have thoughts, however I am going to copy the original post and email it to Kelly Marks with her thoughts. I'm sure you all know about Kelly and her background in racing (her father was Dougals Marks, famous racehorse trainer, and Kelly herself was European Ladies Champion in 1995 when she retired from racing - falt and jumps). I would be very interested to hear Kellys views and expertise on this.

I know where you are at Megan and I guess I would do the same - probably done so too many times in my life in the past and paid the price. However now you have seen them I know you can't walk away so I wish you all the very best of luck and do stay safe. Always keep in mind that they are not your horses and that at anytime the owner may ask you to walk away and then you will have to. Keep us posted and know we are here for you when you need us.

Vicci - what a great suggestion. It would be great to have Kelly's response posted here!

OMG, Vicci, could you REALLY get Kelly's answer to this one??? OMG, I can't think of what else to say other than "OMG", lol!!!

Thanks very much for the advice in that other thread, Paul. Vicci, do you think Kelly will answer?
I have not really got into the 3 colts yet, other than leading them around and patting them, as I am moving house this week. I told the owner that I would be moving and he said... well... I think I'll just write it out:
I told him I'd be moving this week and he told me that in that case, I'd better break them after I'd finished moving, incase I give them a rest for a few days and "their mouths heal up".
I said (honestly confused)"What would their mouths be healing from?" and he said
"The bit! You know, you don't wanna get their mouths nice and hard and then come back and have it soft again. Then you'll have to take a razor blade to the corners of their mouth and ride em again 'till it heals."
Oh. My. God.
"Well," I said, "I can honestly say I've never had that problem. I find the softer the mouth the better. I can't, but I aim to be able to ride with a 2-pound fishing wire tied onto the bit (thank you Monty for making me sound like I know something about fishing & imperial units!)"
"Oh really! No, no, that's no good!"
"Right..."
"Just make sure you don't hurt them. Don't jab 'em in the guts with your boot, you know, they don't like that."
"Of course. I don't use violence."

I am still processing this conversation that I had! Here we have a man who doesn't want any harm to come to his horses, yet will slit their lips with a razor blade!!! How much would that hurt! (I'm not sure why I'm sharing this either lol- it is nothing but an anecdote.) It was a shocking example of the sorts of people I've heard Monty refer to- those who want to do the right thing but are light years away from being able to approximate it. I was in shock from that realisation at first, but then I was also shocked by the thought that I have to make a hard-mouthed horse to make a happy owner lol. No prizes for guessing who I'm going to make happy out of the 2...

Hi

I have emailed Kelly - waiting for a response. In the meantime, a couple of thoughts. I know others ahve suggested that you don't do this but you are clearly hell bent on doing it and that's fine, but I wonder why? I can understand your desire to give them a better start, but lets be frank here, if he wants them to have a hard mouth, the moment you are gone he will get riders in to give them a hard mouth unless you can really pull off a miracle and win him over - I sincerely hope you can and I will be the first to applaud you. Howeve,r I'm worried for you. what is your absolute "No" point? what are you prepared to put up with and not put up with? What safeguards do you have in place to protect yourself from being lost in there. For 2 reference points to this syndrome consider the Stanford prison experiment and the Stanley Milgram experiment. Philip Zimbardo admits in his book "The Lucifer Effect" (well worth reading) that he got so caught up in the fascination of the experiment that he lost sight of the damage that was taking place all around him, and it was a colleague who woke him up. Milgram proved beyond doubt that people will adminster cruelty and do far more than they ever think they will faced with a dominating authority. There is also a philosophy called "boiled frog syndrome" (bear with me lol!) If you throw a frog into boiling water, it will leap out; if you put it into cool water then gradullay increase the heat it will become calm and relaxed and then lose sight of the heat until it is too late and it boils to death. Gruesome imagery I know, but I really think you need to have someone to pull you out if necessary. This is a guy who already admits to slitting their mouths with razors' a cruelty beyond belief and yet there is no thought to report this? (You have cruelty laws in Australia I think?). I'm not trying to be harsh, I admire anyones passion to change the world, I do it myself, but you MUST safeguard your own conscience and ethics.

My final question: What prompted him to ask you and, if you don't mind me asking, is he paying you?

I hope I haven't overstepped the mark here, it is a genuine concern for you, not a desire to be negative. I will be first in the queue to eat my hat if you pull it off (lets face it, there noone more passionate than a convert so if you manage it he will be a brilliant advocate for future racehorse training), and first to support you if it goes wrong. Take care, I will let you know as soon as I hear anything from Kelly Marks (she may just reply directly on to here)

Goodness me, yes I have heard of the prison experiment! I must apologise- I must have made this whole business sound much more dramatic than it actualy is!
My reasons for doing this are threefold. In no particular order- 1: I can give these horses a stress free start to their career. They will encounter unpleasant things later in their lives (as much as I continue to hope that they won't), but at least they will have a good start. 2: I will gain much-welcomed experience; and 3: There is hope that their owner will see that there are better training options out there.
You can rest assured that there is no analogy to the prison experiment because I am not in a prison! I have no financial, social or other obligation to comply with explicit orders of cruelty. I fully intend not to, and I have made that clear to the owner. I am not in isolation in this endeavour- I have you guys, my stable friends (other horse owners at my stable- we call each other "stable" friends, as opposed to non-horsey friends, who are "unstable" friends lol), and my family. In my previous post I quoted myself as saying "alright" to the mouth thing. I never meant for that to come across as agreeing with the notion! By God! Perhaps that didn't go without saying at all! There is no way in hell I wuld ever be a bystander to that, I just wasn't going to argue about it at that time & place! No this man has some crazy and horrible ideas (to me), but he does love his horses. He doesn't like them to suffer what he determines to be pain. Normally I wouldn't bother with old blokes but this particular guy is different. I don't hold out much hope, but he knows that I'm a "natural nut" and he asked me to "break" them in, so I think he might just be searching for different answers to the violent ones he uses. I could be totally wrong, and I probably am, but I'm at least going to find out!

Maybe I overdid it a bit :-) As I said, I wish you every success. In the meantime, I have had the following response from Kelly Marks:

Hi Vicci
I've had some email problems and I've got them stacked sky high now. Really sorry but just can't handle every question on various forums and so on - I want some time to do my horses!
All the best
Kelly

Ah well, it was worth a try....maybe one of Montys other instructors and/or Debbie (Montys daughter) would like to share their views?

Hi again eternal_student. I know you are hell bent on doing this but you are confirming my earlier concerns. The writing is on the wall in big red blood letters " WARNING - DON'T GO THERE - YOU WILL GET HURT!". I gather this is a voluntary project as all of mine have been too. Some successful but some very damaging. I know how you feel and your heart is in the right place but you must think of yourself too. Let's re-think your reasons for doing this. Taking the first one - a valuable sentiment to have but is a stress free start for these horses really going to help them later on? How cruel is it if they learn to trust you and hence other humans and then get mistreated and abused later in life? How will you feel when you are asked to pass them over to someone who will then abuse them? Secondly there are other ways of gaining your much needed experience with horses belonging to like minded horse owners - the hurt factor may still be there but nothing like this. Thirdly if this guy wonts hard mouths and has mentioned cutting a horses mouth with a razor blade then you are kidding yourself if you think he is different and looking for kinder methods. He is more likely just going to test you out so he can then point out where you are wrong and make your life hell. I know you are going to go ahead with this project so please keep us informed of all the steps and we will try not to say " told you so" but be there to support you. I have been in a similar place volunteering re other people's horses many times in my past but never with someone who from the very outset differed so much from my views as this man does from yours. Even so I have been badly hurt on numerous occasions as at the end of the day you do have to walk away as the horse does not belong to you. My most recent experience with the ex-race horse Cash still makes me feel hurt, frustrated and sad. You may have read my previous post re - Cash. Like these babies you are about to start with Cash must have been loved and cared for effectively by someone - probably a lady strapper - somewhere in his past but then he was also abused so badly that he became terrified of people - his back has been badly injured, his nose was been broken, the side of his face was dented in and he was ear twitched. At five he was retired from racing and left in a paddock for five years to fend pretty much by himself. Then new people moved in next door and the Mum who had a horse in the past as a kid decided to befriend him and asked for my help to re-train him. After eight months of working with Cash and bringing him back from a terrified horse to a friendly horse that responded fantastically to all Monty's methods I was asked to walk away just as I had commenced his dressage training. I was so proud of him as he was responding so beautifully and would have made a fantastic dressage horse. However unfortunately Cash was responding too much to me and not enough to the lady who had decided to befriend him so she became jealous and antagonistic. She failed to join Monty's uni for me and started listening to rougher handlers in the racing fraternity. She decided that she wanted to toughen Cash up more and do it her way. Frustrating as she doesn't even own him either but she had instigated my help so I had to walk away. Now he is again left in the paddock - not neglected as the other lady still loves him, feeds him and grooms him - but his re-training is at a standstill. I was hurt and damaged by this but I am over sensitive and love animals too much - you may be tougher - I do hope you are for your sake as this situation you are facing is not a good one. Perhaps it you ask for payment you may feel better as then at least you will have some dollars to walk away with!! I just feel I wasted my very busy valuable time and left Cash unfinished which is something I hated to do. He was doing so well and had come so far. I still him give him a hug and pat through the fence but it is not the same as handling him weekly and I notice that he is becoming more wary again. As before all the very best but tread carefully and stay safe!!

Just a little information. In Monty's book I found that thoroughbreads are usually started (first saddle and bit, without rider) at 18 to 24 months, arabs and warmbloods at 24 to 36 months.
Rudi

Hey eternal, Maggie is right. And if you haven't worked with thoroughbreds, and I assume that you have not, you are in for a few (bad)surprises. As a general rule, thoroughbreds are not the sharpest knives in the drawer. Not all of them, but certainly the vast majority, and mind you a few do turn out to be surprisingly intelligent and easy to work with, all the same.
I don't think that you will be dissuaded, but, as Maggie said, "a word to the wise" and I fully agree that you are going to experience a lot of heartache and disappointment. Are you training these to race or just teaching them to take a rider?
I just feel so compelled to opine here, after reading your dialogue about the bit damage....this guy who owns these horses is an idiot, plain and simple. To have someone actually believe such uneducated, blatantly pathetic stupidity about horses mouths should be legally forbidden to own or even be near any horse, even the picture of a horse for that matter. It is IMPOSSIBLE to condition any horses mouth to trauma. The scientific and qualified studies are in the hundreds and are incontrovertible.
To have someone even think of doing what this guy actually does is....well....I can't criticize this guy the way he should be without adding one hell of a lot of profanity for emphasis, so I will just leave it at that.
Eternal....just get the hell away from this very poor excuse for a horse owner/trainer.
If you had any inkling at all about exactly what thoroughbreds are put through in North America (at least) you would not (I assume) want to be involved.
Anyway, sorry I got a little carried away here, but if you only knew and have seen what I have, you would agree completely.
Cheers,
Paul

Believe me Paul, the thoroughbred industry in this country, in general is no better. Unless a horse is a champion (as you know an extremely small percentage of horses bred for the track) their often short lives are horrendous - they are a throw away item and this is an absolute disgrace. We have had issues here with knackery's using extreme cruelty on the poor things that don't make it to the track before they are slaughtered and despite the endless protests we horse lovers make the gambling based industry continues to flourish and the horrors of the industry are kept hidden as much as possible. There are way too many people out there just trying to make a quick buck with no care or concern for the animals welfare at all. We have some of the highest prize money in the world on 2 year old races here and that in itself is just wrong - no horse is physically developed enough to be running around a track at that age but this will never change when the monetary stakes are so high. While I will not tell you what to do Eternal as this is your decision I do agree with the others that you are on a highway to a hiding getting involved but whatever you choose to do - take care of yourself. Cheers Jan

Yes Jan, its so sad eh? Over 120,000 thoroughbreds are treated ruthlessly and viciously and then just killed out of hand here. Almost every single one are under 4 years of age. I have watched them on the killing floor and it just makes you cry to see the literal terror in their eyes.
And these are magnificent specimens, honestly.
Any horse, and I do mean any horse should not be ridden before fully 3 years of age. And every single good equine vet that I have spoken with or whose work I have read agrees completely. Those whom have disagreed have not bothered to analyze the data from the thermal imaging or haven't conducted "complete" checks of these horses. Frankly its really quite scary when one realizes how little most vets do know about horses. I don't claim to know a hell of a lot, but if you can believe this, I actually have two equine vets asking my opinion on how to set up certain horses with a "given" foot problem, because they aren't really sure.....this is very sad and disheartening let me tell you. Its not a compliment, its scary....: (

A great majority of vets whom have been involved in the studies actually advise very strongly against putting a rider on any horse under 4. I personally start at 3 but with a very light rider, 110 lbs to be exact, my wife...lol.

I do agree with starting horses at a later age and have turned work away with people wanting me to start 2 year olds - I just won't do it as it is totally against my ethos and I have always explained my reasoning and allowed the owner to make the final decision. My work with horses these days is more of the rehabilitation of damaged horses - I love nothing better than seeing trust rebuilt after bad experiences.
Re the racehorses and slaughter there has been practices of putting several in a large crush and shooting them from a distance one by one - how horrific is that for the poor animals !!!!! I have heard these people try and defend this practice stating it is humane and I just can't keep quiet when I see these things.
Regarding the vets asking your advice, while it is sad that they are lacking this sort of knowledge at least they have the good sense to seek advice from a professional like yourself - there would be plenty around who would not admit to not having the knowledge required and blunder through regardless of the outcome for the horses.
Cheers Jan

Hi everyone, by the sounds of it, most of you would be pleased to know that I didn't end up starting these bloke's horses lol.
Not long after I last posted, I moved house, then I had to move again, and then I got pregnant, so there's been no time and there will be no time to be starting anyone's horse! Fateful, really... (I wouldn't go mucking around with colts when I'm pregnant anyway, even if I did have the time.)
Paul, I read how he shouldn't be let near a picture of a horse... that cracks me up! At the same time it's not at all funny because it's true, and because there are so many other people for whom it is also true! And Paul, I also read that you might not be renewing your membership? Can I just take a selfish liberty here and ask you: NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lol, please?

Being pregnant is exciting, but it's also a bummer because I will have to put on hold saving all the horses in the world one horse at a time lol. I have a dream, kind of like Monty's I suppose, where all horses from the race industry are treated with respect and live out their natural lives. That goes for all horses too, I suppose. I'm sure it will be realised :)

Well many congratulations on your pregnancy! Fate is a strange thing isn't it? I was sat here a few days ago thinking, I must ask how she is getting on with the racehorses and then you pop up! :-) If I am honest, I am relieved for your sake that you are not doing this but that doesn't mean I don't respect your passion and desire to change the industry. I have an idea that you could do while being pregnant!! Even though we are all anti violent I think we need a worldwide single issue campaign to ban the use of whips in ALL equestrian sports once and for all. I know it won't fix everything and people have other ways to be cruel but I think it would be a big step in removing one legitimised weapon of torture. what do you think?

Vicci!!!! Is that MONTY in the photo with you?! OMG THAT IS SO COOL!!! Haha, I am totally jealous. He's coming to Sydney in August though, and I'm going to see him. Hopefully I can get a photo with him too! I'll feel like a schoolgirl again lol.
Vicci, I couldn't agree with you more. I do not understand why there is such acceptance of whips. They should absolutely be removed from all sports- I am in feverish accordance with you!
Personally I would like to see no crops/whips allowed at pony clubs. I do not understand how adults think that children have firstly the motor skills and secondly the presence of mind to use whips as only "an extension of their arm". Who in their right mind facilitates a frustrated 5 year old's ability to inflict pain on another animal??? When I have this kid it will certainly not be allowed to use a whip. Nor a bit until it gets older. Kids should ride around bitless and bareback lol. It grieves me so much to see kids pulling on the poor horse's mouths, and whipping them with their crops- the kids don't know that their hands are so rough, the pain that the whip causes nor the fact that it's not the horse's fault.
Vicci, how about you rid racing of whips and I rid pony club of whips lol. I have actually been thinking about it recently. I won't be a very active member of my local club until my children are a bit older, but I do plan to put myself in a position of influence and use it to promote cropless and bitless riding and surely it will catch on- it's only logical!

Oh, and I might add that putting a bit or fingers in a child's mouth and yanking on them does not teach them a thing about being gentle to their horse. My step daughter's Mum did that to her. I was horrified when I found out. It just makes the child resent the parent and perhaps be more violent to their horse when the parent isn't looking. You can't teach anti violence with violence!!!
I'm so glad my Mum never did anything like that to me! If she did, how would that have shown me what to do if I couldn't pull my horse up anyway?! All it shows me is that when my horse plays up and I pull on his mouth, I'm going to get doubly angry with him because it will get me into trouble too! My mind boggles...

Yes, it is Monty :-) I went to Flag is Up for a week as they have an 'open door policy' so I turned up everyday for a week! I couldn't have picked a better time (totally unplanned!) Monty was home, the advanced course was running, the first new batch of Willing Partners had just arrived and were being evaluated, Barry Humphries aka Dame Edna Everedige was visiting so Monty was riding, cutting guinea fowl, demonstrating work with a very abused stallion called jackpot and so much more!!. I followed him round like a sheep all week lol - I was a babbling idiot when he spoke to me, I just kept grinning inanely what a twit eh? During that visit I met his daughter Debbie, and talked to her about the need for a smaller Dually, she was so gracious and listened and asked me to send her sizings, reasons, etc etc. and after two years the green small Dually arrived! That is my one and only claim to fame where Monty is concerned hahaha but it just goes to show that every one of us can make a small difference ;-)

Forgot, I have some lovely photos of him while I was there, if anyone wants to see them let me know :-)