Researchers from the Norwegian Veterinary Institute and Norwegian Institute of Bioeconomy - and I quote from the intro of the article they published in Applied Animal Behaviour Science Nov-16 - "...wanted to explore whether the ability of horses to discriminate simple visual symbols could be extended with associations between specific symbols and corresponding outcomes, and furthermore the consequences for own comfort as perceived by the individual horse of these outcomes. If so, symbols could guide appropriate decision-making behaviour and be utilised as a communication tool in preference testing of horses. A very common but still disputed management routine in the Nordic countries is to equip horses with blankets (rugs). Our aim was thus to develop a tool to “ask” horses whether or not they prefer to wear a blanket under different weather conditions. In this paper, we describe the method by which horses are taught to touch visual symbols on a display board to communicate their preference to humans."
Most of all, I want you to look at the vid! It only shows the result of one trained horse at one particular time, but it is quite interesting.
Link to article + vid:
http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/article/S0168-1591(16)30219-2/fulltext
Most of all, I want you to look at the vid! It only shows the result of one trained horse at one particular time, but it is quite interesting.
Link to article + vid:
http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/article/S0168-1591(16)30219-2/fulltext
Of course horses don't think winter fur growth, but the ones that find themselves with the option of a rug and has learned the consequences of having one on, can't they have a preference about rug or no rug?
My best example is my own horse who - when he was a small colt - more or less crawled into the rug (his mom's fleece lined quarter rug actually) when he was wet and cold in the winter. You could see him relax once it was on.
Or the horses that comes running in summer to get the fly rug on.
Likewise, I know horses (again, my own as well!) who will try to rip the rug from my hands and walk away when he doesn't want it on - for whatever reason he might have.
Once they have learned the cause and effect of any thing, don't you agree they tend to use it to their advantage?
Not sure it is calculated reasoning the researchers are after, either. As I understand it, it was more for ways to create an interspecies communication but with symbols rather than body language or sounds.
Then we are on the same page. :)
I do agree about the reservations against symbols as practical! Like you say, we have our bodies with us wherever we go. ;)
Horses sure are capable of a great deal, aren't they? I am often less amazed over what a horse can do than I am over the people who are amazed by it. (If that sentence made sense...) :D
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Jo, your stance on how you interact with your horses makes me smile, because for years I`ve fought with myself about allowing our horses to be up-close and personal [in your personal space]. My overiding thought was that these horses were going to be in some else`s hands and that I SHOULD train them in the spacial concept to humans. We, sometimes, let them get away with being in our laps. Somehow, I don`t feel so bad now.
Thanks
Bud
Bud I wouldn't worry about your horses being close up and personal with you, it's a showing they accept you in their herd.
I teach the human that they can't go into their space unless the horse says ok. If one of the horses decides to brush past a new visitor, a test of working out what the human will do, then I'll correct the horse and 'tell' them they must not do that. Only when I feel a mutual respect between the visitor and horses will I allow the visitor to be on their own with them. Takes time for some, some don't get it and the few that get it make lovely changes for their own horses.
Question is are they being close up with affection, or are they testing you out to see where you stand?
I believe horses can understand our every word and can change the understanding no matter the language spoken to it. A recent video clip for Valegro at Olympia showed his biting his rider when she said she's not got to find a new horse to work with, jealousy, hurt that he was not going to be used any more. His reaction to her words suggested he knew exactly what she was saying.
Jealousy a supposed human trait, but also seen in the animal world and I've seen close up with horses and people, Pye sadly having hurt people in the past on purpose, being reactive, I had a stern chat with him after he double barrelled a horse whilst a person was standing next to the horse, he was jealous and had good reason to be as they had a bag in front of the horse that could have had carrots in and it wasn't being shared. I sternly told him he must not do that near humans as we break easy and sent him away in Equus until I had the head dropping response. About a week later he decided to double barrel out at Seaton who was having a drink near Darrell and Darrell nearly got squashed in the process, jealousy again possibly, so the stern words became more clear this time. 'If you hurt another human I will have to put you down' eyes on eyes and a pointing finger this time, his eyes totally locked on mine you saw immediately he understood, his head lowered to the ground with no sending off, his neck stretched down and forward towards me and his eyes said 'I'm sorry'
I like Jo's comment of what would happen if horses showed their intelligence. Being that they are passive creatures and generally comply with what is being asked of them, could you imagine what would be expected of them if they let on how much they really understand? Especially when in the horse world if the horse says no, then they're forced or coerced to do comply.
Like yourselves we speak to our horses, not just random babblings of what we had at lunch, but things we are trying to do with them, ask of them etc and the horses respond. Asking them to respond to specific questions also works ie when it comes to rugging. After I saw the article on the experiment as to what the horse wants, I thought I'd make a bigger point of asking the horses do they want their rugs on or off. So for 3 days when taking their rugs off and putting them on, I would say 'rug' pointing at the rug and as the rug comes off I say 'off' at the end I'd say 'rug off' and visa versa for rug on, I'd hold the rug on my arm and look at it and say 'rug' then point to the horses back and say 'on', as I put the rug on I say 'rug on'.
Now I stand when they have their rugs on, point to their rug and question 'rug off'? I take a step towards undoing the rug, if they want it off they will stand still. If they don't they will walk away. Nice and simple. The same works the other way.
Pye taught me that he didn't always want his rug on a couple of winters ago and it was his teaching me that led me to look at offering the horse a choice of rugging. The only time I insist they have a rug on is when heavy cold rain is coming; benefit of the weather channel :D, but I don't just insist they have the rug on, I tell them wet cold weather is coming and they will need it later.
A question, why is it that human beings expect the animal to learn our language. If I go to another country I try and learn some of the language of the country I'm going to, I don't expect the people that speak a different language to learn mine for my visit. Why then do humans insist that animals learn our ways, the animals have a language it's up to us to learn it.
Interestingly I've found goats, cows and sheep all communicate with what we call the Equus language, and we know from Monty that deer also communicate with it, so I'm going to be calling it the 'The Sign Language of the Animals' :D
Mel
x
This is a very interesting conversation indeed. I believe that we can all agree on one thing which is that when we listen to our horses and leave them a choice, they will answer. Sure, if we could ask them whether they'd want to work or rather stay in the field, there'd always be only one answer :) But if we suggest exercices that are within their capacities, they will gladly respond. And sometimes, their first answer is surprisingly positive suggesting that we may have underestimated them a little bit.
And what Jo says above about a horse having "career preferences", I also believe that to be perfectly true. If I may refer to my own horses, after trying out several things with Jesse, I can now safely say that he's not lightfooted nor very reactive so ground- or saddlework is not really his thing. At least, we don't have the same kind of fun that we do with long rein work, for instance, so that's what we concentrate on. And he keeps surprising me – don't you just love that? :)
As for jealousy, I can also attest to the fact that horses do exhibit some form of possessive and/or jealous behaviour with humans. We have three Freibergers, horses that are naturally close to humans and love to be taken care of. My boyfriend takes care of Gaïa, the mare, and I take care of Linus and Jesse, the two boys. When I go there on my own, Gaïa will be just as lovely as the other two but if my boyfriend is there, she'll mostly ignore me and even show dominant behaviour if I stand too close to "her human" (I have had to correct her a little severely this summer when she started turning her butt towards me and/or pushing me away – now, we're good). If I go to be with Linus first, Jesse doesn't like it at all. He'll come up and push Linus away despite Linus being the dominant horse. And if I have Linus' smell on my hands, Jesse will lower his ears when I reach out to him (then I put my hand gently on his muzzle and he'll lower his head and take a few steps backwards – he did this of his own accord the very first time this happened so I just repeat my own gestures. He has never displayed any form of agressiveness towards me). We have talked about this with their previous owner (the breeding farm owner) and he confirmed that his own horses display the same kind of behaviour around him. Is this mostly down to that race of horses? I don't know for certain but I don't think so.
I think that it's interesting to know about animal intelligence and what they can learn to respond to or ask for but when you're around them every day, you no longer really notice what would seem surprising to a non animal person. We also have an Australian sheep dog and since he was a baby, he has been used to having his paws cleaned with a towel when coming inside if it was raining. It didn't take long for him to go directly over to the towel and "nose" it every time he came inside. And little by little, he has learned to make a difference between "wet" or "dry" paws so now he only noses his towel when they're wet. As for the cats, well... "What? Oh but dear human, you are only there to obey my every command so clean the floor if you like but leave my royal paws alone..." :)
1.Yes, horse can express a preference (rug on rug off) but animals learn by association i.e. touching the boards led to something which caused reward. However, the research has put far too much of a human "wish" interpretation on it. It's possible that the horses were able to make a conscious choice between rug on rug off depending on weather but this is an inference that we make because it's what we want to think happened. It could also be that because the horse knew that he only had to touch a board that was different to his current state e.g. he has a rug ON so he needs to touch a 'neutral' or 'rug off' board to get the reward rather than a decision based on comfort levels. I am not saying I am right but it is the process of critical thinking that makes for real scientific enquiry/breakthrough
2. Mel's statement abut Valegro " ... biting his rider when she said she's not got to find a new horse to work with, jealousy, hurt that he was not going to be used any more. His reaction to her words suggested he knew exactly what she was saying..." This (sorry Mel but I have to say it!) is an example of confirmation bias i.e. you believe that horses understand human language and therefore interpret his behaviour accordingly. There are many many possible explanations for Valegro's behaviour . You continue this belief by your description of "stern words" - I full accep that he understood your mood, your intention, your leadership but I do not accept that they understand language other than a few words here and there. There are very sophisticated tests to establish whether animals understand human words and even the most highly sophisticated dog (a border collie whose name I have forgotten) who has broken every record and has astounded scientist by demonstrating for the first time that a dog can infer a command only has a range of 100 or so words. So to say that a horse understand a whole string of sentences AND the consequences communicated does no credit to our desire to have evidence based horsemanship and is a disservice to your own talents Mel.
I am not trying to be negative I promise, I think we are only scratching the surface of animal intelligence and we are very clumsy in trying to communicate with animals and we stumble around at times like holiday makers in a foreign land with only a phrasebook to guide us :-) We have to be objective and analytical if we are to turn the horseworld around.
I don't think horses can follow strings of sentences and definitely not the chatter that humans have between each other, but they are capable of understanding small direct words aimed at them especially when the words are associated with actions first. With Valegro his trainers words clearly showed she was not going to be working with him, was going to be leaving him for another horse. In horse terms she was leaving the herd, to which he 'could' have understood either by words or an emotion that his trainer gave off.
Teaching and expanding their words can also be achieved. Words my horses have come to understand 'exercise time' and 'time for bed' both have the word time in them, but how do they see the difference that exercise time means run around the field in a circle around me and time for bed means go into their (when we had them) night stalls. The action of my body is point in the direction I want them to go and apply pressure to ask them to move, the night pens were in the field with them, so I could be pointing in that direction when asking for exercise time. 'This way' is another phrase I use with the horses and they'll follow me. I can give the follow me body language sign and they'll just look at me with the expression to say why, then I can ask them with the same body language and say this way we're changing fields and they will follow me. Body language the same but with words included are they understanding words?
There are a range of keywords I've been teaching my horses and they have all shown understanding in the requests. Not conversational things, horses live in the now and have no need for human chit chat.
I struggle with evidence based horsemanship at the moment Vicci, everything I'm learning at Uni based on Equine Rehabilitation at the moment based on 'evidence' has involved injuring horses in the name of science to see how they heal. An example of such a case was 18 horses were taken and had their front legs broken in the same place on each horse, whilst alive, the horses were then boxed, tested, treated with different methods then eventually over the course of 6 months all of them euthanized. All in the name of science and 'evidence' of learning. I've refused to use some of the references they want us to use at Uni because it involves injuring a horse to provide 'evidence' to support the subject.
Science is only just starting to look at the way a horse can communicated with people and with them now documenting that horses can recognise human facial expressions, doesn't mean it wasn't happening before. But why wait for someone with a PhD to decide what an animal can and can't do. Something that was mentioned on the conference call tonight, if someone only follows the method they have found and make that the recognised methods, does that mean the other methods are wrong. At Uni I when I disagree with methods because I see the emotional response it has on the horse, I'm told 'it's an approved method so it's alright' Take example the chiffney bit, we all know it can have severe effect even breaking the horses jaw in some cases, yet it is a traditional method of controlling the horse and because it's traditional even though over 200 years old it's acceptable and yet other tools such as the Dually are considered by those who use traditional restraints, not acceptable because 'the people who created the tradition don't accept it'.
"evidence based horsemanship and is a disservice to your own talents Mel." raises a couple of questions to my mind. Who is supposed to provide the evidence and why? How is something a disservice to ones talent if they are exploring an aspect of communication that science has yet to established?
My talents involve speaking equus down to the nod of a head, movement of the tongue and facial expressions and even the horse noises, can't quite get the high pitch neighing out though lol, but whilst learning to speak/communicate the horses way, they have been showing me they understand more than credit is given to them. For that I do not consider it a disservice to my talent, but an expansion of my understanding of the horses understanding us, be it science has proved it yet or not.
When Monty first started to understand the nature of join up, he hid it away because of how people reacted because it was not 'traditional training'. Although evidence is required, had Monty had the support all those years ago to speak out back then, just think of the changes he would be doing now. Noone should be held back from speaking what they learn about our amazing animal friends, it's the lack of speaking out that slows down needed changes.
If science found horses to be sentient beings, which many horse whisperers believe they are, should science prove this to be the case then that would change the freedom rights of the horse. Is a horse worked because it wants to, or because it has to? If science proves to be a sentient being and have understanding how the horse is worked now would have to change. This being the case why would science study the subject of something that they have pleasure of using for their own benefit.
Good hearing you all on the call tonight :D
Mel
x
It's all about the horse!
Yes, let's speak out about all that we observe, but we must be open to all the different interpretations that are possible too. But I agree, we also have to be brave in talking about things that are new and not well supported.
I, like you Mel, have wanted to study a degree in Horsemanship but I have been very wary as I have not been convinced that they are as up to date/'evidence based' as they think they are and I fear I would spend most of my time in conflict with them. Finding the right course is so difficult! I hope you are enjoying your course overall and not too disappointed with it.
I am deeply disturbed by "......18 horses were taken and had their front legs broken in the same place on each horse, whilst alive, the horses were then boxed, tested, treated with different methods then eventually over the course of 6 months all of them euthanized. All in the name of science and 'evidence' of learning...." and I want to know more about this Mel. How old is this study, where was it done?