Uh oh...this is not good...bolting is a big issues; I hope you are feeling physically better but I'm sure you are shaken up mentally and emotionally. Can you do me a favour; remind me what your earlier thread was called or put the link on so we can review the past discussion please. Also, if you ahve not already told us on the previous thread can you tell me about Shilo's life before you got him and how you came to own him (if's it's already on the other thread don't worry). Thanks

Good Morning Dionne, I am so-oo sorry that you and Shilo had to experience that bit of emotional recklessness and you had to taste the feeling of being helplessly tossed through the air.
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.Whenever you make a change in a horses` environment, they mentally slipped into another mind set[THEY SET THEIR FREQUENCIES ON HIGH ALERT- - they are on edge. The trainer`s car driving up and her honking the horn didn`t help Shilo`s emotional condition. Remember, she has been ridden in the round pen only at a walk and he is very, very young. Horses are all about being safe, # one priority in their DNA. If a horse wants to bolt, there is no human or tack that will stop the action. WE SIMPLY ARE NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO RESIST THEIR WILL.
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. You made a decision because to change where he had been ridden because of the round pen condition. That was probably good, but the trainer driving up and honking the horn was not.
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.Once a horse bolts the second time is easier for them to slip into that same flight mode and third time is even easier. You must go back with incremental steps and reassure Shilo that all can be good with you on his back. He needs to feel really safe and secure with that connection. YOU MUST REBUILD, AND PUT HIM BACK TOGETHER. Another venue may be a stretch, or it also might work just fine. It is very hard to say at this point, but pause and give yourself some time to think this completely through. I believe that the connection between you and Shilo must come to the forefront as it did when you two encountered the low tree branch on one of your walks YOU STEP ACROSS THE THRESHOLD OF UNCERTAINTY as a team. THIS IS EXACTLY WHERE YOU BECOME HIS PERSON and hopefully that will feeling will merge into you riding him. He has been flooded with emotion and his cup of worry is full. This has happened to me and probably everyone on this forum, but the good news is that CAN BE FIXED.
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.Please stay safe and remember how very young Shilo is. Your connection with him is paramount.
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All the best to you both, Bud

Hi Bud and Vicci.
Well, I got my first gravel massage, bruises and bumps and a stiff back..nothing broken , only my pride!!
Yes, now looking back and standing back looking in I made a massive mistake taking him out into the court yard and asking him to 'stand alone' with me on his back.
If anybody knows how sensitive Shilo is, it's me,. What was I thinking??.
Stupid stupid me.
I feel bad because it's my fault that Shilo got frightened and had a bad (twice) experience.
Vicci. - Shilo was breed by a professional welsh cob stutteri her in Denmark called BYMOSEGAARD.
You can find them on the net. he was sold to a young girl who would try and train him but it turned out too much for her.
Shilo was then swopped for another horse which stood at a horse internat. Which is like a horse home.
I fell in love him him there and bought him just before he turned 3 years old.
He has an impressive family tree including some champions.
His father is German champion for breed.
The only training he has had has come from me.
My previous posts are:-
My first horse- help
Ha ha lunging with 2 lines I have a lot to learn.
Sweet spot day one
Sweet spot day two
Signal from horse, what did it mean.

I know that the whole thing is my fault, I have apologized to Shilo 400 times since the incident and I have used the past 2 days just hanging out with him, we did some trailer training today and it went very very well.
Bud, though I agree with you that a change of environment is something that needs to be thought through, I think that Shilo needs to go to different places, encounter different people, etc to be able to mature him a little, and make him less nervous.
Tomorrow when we go to my trainers arena I just expect to walk around in there with Shilo, let him sniff to everything and just be there, then we drive home again.
I then want to keep driving him there, making him used to trailer and driving and the new arena.
I don't expect Shilo to ' train' in there for quite a while.
I think that I have made a mistake that I have isolated him at my farm, with his three friends and just my children and husband and dogs that go around, I should have introduced him to lots of other things earlier, or is that wrong thinking of me ?
My goal is to ride Shilo out on the ' trail' well here in Denmark that only consists of country roads and forests. But you know what I mean.
I am so upset that I did that to him, and I cried yesterday over it, because I thought that all of the trust we have built up is gone, I had come so very far with him and then messed up right when I should have been at my most focused ( the riding aspect)
I really hope also that I have done the right thing by employing the trainer to help me, but I'm not an experienced horse woman and I could only come so far alone, so when it came to riding him I needed the extra input and knowledge and experience.
This trainer has trained many horses and I know her Arabian horse and he is just fantastic. She is a very nice person who , like me, believes in no pain training.
She said to me that we need to go back to where Shilo is comfortable, and that's what you wrote Bud, so I know I have the right trainer- that's one good thing at least.
I'm just so very sad about the whole thing and feel like a total idiot and a failure in Shilos eyes.

Dionne.

Hi Dionne and thanks for the quick reply. Whenever anything of this nature happens to us and our horses it shakes us to our core. My wife and I read through your reply together and her remark was that you are probably being too hard on yourself. HINDSITE, OH MY!
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.It sounds like you have thought this through and your well on your way to be directed with your decisions. That is HUGE...
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.Remember, Dionne, this only one aspect of Shilo`s behavior and it certainly can be fixed; and you have a plan. Another person`s eyes and ideas can really help especially if they are further down the trail with experience, but no one will replace the connection you have built with Shilo.
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.All the best Bud

I know that it is probably the wrong thing to write, but when Shilo bolted and galloped at full speed, it was fantastic.....just that 30 seconds of power I felt was like nothing I ever have experienced, pity I wasn't in control, "just along for the ride" !!
Thanks for your kind words Bud, I don't think I'm being too hard on myself, I think I deserve what I got and should have known better.
I'm lucky that I wasn't injured any more than I was, and it certainly has given food for thought.
I'm looking forward to tomorrow, seeing Shilo in a new environment and helping him , as you so eloquently put it Bud, with his cup of worry.
I'm looking forward to supporting him in his actions , and so what if I don't ride him for the next year, I am going to get it right next time.
I won't ever put Shilo in that position again, this experience has really imprinted itself in me.

Dionne.

Hi Dionne - great words from Bud as always and lovely to see your honesty re: galloping :-)
:
So, you want to beat yourself up about it? Ok, you've done that, time to move on :-) Please don't think I'm being hard here, but if you keep berating yourself and 'apologising' to Shilo that in itslef will damage your relationship because he will sense you are behaving differently both physically and emotionally. You've clearly learnt from the experience and please take heart in the fact that horses are very forgiving and it can all be put right; this is why I say 'move on'.
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While I applaud your trainer being 'pain free' please tell her to stop honking the horn!! A bit of common sense will not go amiss here haha
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A small warning.....be very careful to watch for signs of bolting again; I am not entirely convinced this is the first time he has done this; it may be the first time with you but not the first time he has learned it as an escape route but we will never know so we work with what we have in front of us.
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Go back, start again, and enjoy. We are with you all the way Dionne!

Hi Dionne and all,
Reading this thread I'm in awe of your courage, Dionne!
Learn more about the language Equus, we've all had this kind of moments of truth, only to convince us that we really need to dive in deeper and learn to read the horse even better.
As Vicci wrote, watch for the signs of bolting, you'll find his breathing a very good help. Get a feeling for how and how frequent he breathes in a normal situation.
Find out if he holds his breath when tense, this might provoke an explosion like you've lived through a coulpe of times. Remember that holding his breath may look "quiet", only to be followed by this reaction when you no longer expect it. This I've learned the hard way myself.... trusting the horse was feeling better following another horse, after a fright situation. Well he did follow, until he saw the escape route and was gone, like Shilo!
And learn how to breathe and exhale in a manner that tells the horse "all is good"! You can see and hear Monty doing just that in situations where the horse gets tense. Watch all those great video's that are available here for you!
Shilo will get older and wiser, you're going to lead the way!
You love this horse, be his leader.
Keep us posted,
Miriam

Hi Dionne & all, a good lesson for us all to remember when we're teaching our horses, thank you Dionne it's a painful but good lesson ;).
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Have you taught Shilo a one reign stop? It's something I have always used for situations where bolting occurs or where there has been panic & mayhem in group rides (when I used to go to riding schools lol)
It needs to be taught from the ground first. Missy Wren teaches this in her free videos and it might be something for you to have a watch on. Basically you teach the horse to bend his head on one side so when in the saddle if control is lost in bolting you can gently encourage them into this safe bend on the reign, helping bringing the adrenaline levels back down quickly and safely.
Mel
x

Hello all.
Thanks you for the support after my disastrous decision.
This morning I drove Shilo out to my trainers luxury arena!, I don't mind admitting that I was very nervous.
Shilo loaded after 2 attempts, he is so brave and I am thankful for his trust in this matter- goes with what you say Vicci, he has forgiven me and let me lead him in the trailer.
The journey is only 20 minutes at a slow careful drive.
I was so happy when I got into the trailer when I arrived and saw that Shilo stood quite calmly.
He was very much on high alert outside the arena and when we got in I lead him around just going where he wanted to go and he sniffed and looked at everything.
I was 30 minutes early because I wanted the chance to ease him into the situation.
He snorted a lot and his breathing very high.
I help him by standing with him and saying that I was there for him, I was not going away and together we can do this.
There is a large mirror in the arena which took him some time to get used to.
Well, so comes in my trainer and we spent (Shilo and me) about 15 more minutes just standing around, walking around and I asked him do walk as always in sweet spot which he did.
I could feel him ' wanting me close' does that sound strange? , but I could feel it and I just was there for him, and I think he realize it.
Everything was very calm, the radio playing softly in the back ground and I was able to put a loung rope on Shilo and we longe the rest of the time there in walk and trot.
He did what I ask him to, and very very well.
I'm so proud of him.
That was the end of the lesson for today and by the way, when we had small breaks in lounging I let Shilo go completely free around the arena and noticed that for each time he would go further away from me and discover things on his own, he accepted me walking to him again to loung again.
I was nervous that he would not load in trailer again afterwards , but there was no need, he walked on after I just stood inside the trailer and waited for him, about 3 and half minutes.
Then I gave a peace of apple and quickly but calmly shut the ramp and drove home again smiling all the way.
There was a delay in off loading when I got home because of some work at my farm going on but I took this delay of around 5 minutes to stand with him in the trAiler, the ramp was still up but I opened the side door so he could see and smell that he was home.
I think I will do this delay every time because it was very calming instead of immediately off loading him. So we stood and talked about the fun we had and then I off loaded him and we went straight to his 3 friends and he just stood and eat his hay.
People who have been following my threads, especially Vicci, Bud and Mel, this is a question for you.
You know my aim is to train to ride without a bit, but today my trainer was very honest about this and though she understands my wishes she advise me to get a bit for Shilo.
She explained to me that because shilo is so young, and now has shown this bolting that she would much prefer I use a bit, even though she know that a bit won't stop a bolting horse, she says that the signals by the bit are much more black and white for Shilo.and by using a bit from the start of riding training I will be more safe, she also said the magic sentence to me that a bit is only as hard as the hands that apply it.
She says she will happily help me train Shilo to ride bitl less after he has learned to ride with a bit. My feelings about bits are very strong, but my safety and Shilos is paramount.
Do you agree with my trainer?
I feel that I am going directly against my principals, but on the other hand I need to listen to one who is experienced in this field, this is not a young girl we are talking about, my trainer is around 60 years and has horses more many many years, she has a successful riding school and from what I have read from others that have used her, she does know her stuff.
She is educated in horses anatomy and uses this knowledge in her training methods a lot, always explaining about the effects particular training methods have on Shilo's anatomy.
She also said when I asked her if a rubber bit could be a compromise that this bit would not give the exact signals and that I would end up using it more ( more strain on Shilo) than if I used a normal 2 link or 3 link bit.
Sorry for the long story, I'm not too good explaining what I mean because I cannot find the English describing words needed.
Your thoughts on this would be very much appreciated as this subject on bits is one that is close to my heart.
Thank you everyone.

Dionne.

Thanks Dionne for sharing about your experience which we can all learn from and I admire how much 'introspection' you are showing. Honestly, I probably would have done the same mistake as you, we cannot be perfect all the time!

When you bring Shilo to a new place, it is great to give him time to have a look and get used to the new surroundings, and also lunge to see how he is feeling (basically what you have done in the new arena, thumbs up), and why not try a join up in the new place? Then, maybe have your trainer ride him so as to not put yourself in such danger again, or use a mannequin if you can.

I do not have enough knowledge about bits to comment.

Your journey with Shilo is so interesting to follow, Dionne! :) I do admire you and your determination.
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You asked in an earlier post if you should have taken Shilo to all sorts of things instead of isolating him on the farm. I would say the answer is "yes!" but then you must promise me not to go into self-deprecating thoughts and start apologizing to him!!! ;)
That is not good for either of you. Admit to mistakes, learn and move on! There is no blame for making mistakes as long as we learn from them.
Apologizing to our horses, as we humans have a tendency to do, is rather pointless as they probably didn't blame us in the first place anyway and also has put the whole thing behind them ten seconds after it was over.
The one who needs to forgive us is we ourselves, so next time go to the mirror and apologize instead. ;) (Hugs!)
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On to the bits! :)
I for one am all in agreement with your trainer with everything you say she says, esp about the hands that hold the tool.
Safety first! Monty says that too!
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As for what kind of bit, you need to let Shilo guide you!
My old mare loves her rubber-clad three-piece, while the youngster much prefers a smooth metal and clearly felt the friction of the rubber was uncomfortable. (I bought it because I was convinced he would prefer the softer rubber, so there you go!)
You also need to try heavier bits against thinner ones to see what weight and thickness he prefers.
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Don't hold on too hard to principles that conflicts with what is best for any single individual.
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For example, I can have a principle that horses are better off without shoes, but that is absolutely not true for lots of them - entire breeds even - so while the *general* idea might be sound, my good intentions can be really harmful when applied without regards to the nuances.

Good morning Dionne, you honor us all with such a detailed description of your first day at the trainer`s arena. You were very careful to touch all the bases with Shilo and his new surroundings. EXCELLENT THOUGHT PREPERATION. You created a scenario of success on all fronts with your careful planning. This is a good lesson for all of us to think about anytime we are training or just being with our horses.
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.I believe that you are going to find yourself in a "catch 22" with regard to the bit question. Most trainers are of the opinion that bits are a must when starting young horses. They feel that a bit is a much SAFER way of communicating with a horse. With a trainer that has lots of experience, safety is a big issue, especially in their facility. Also, most trainers have limited experience with other headstall devises. A BIT WILL NOT STOP A HORSE FROM BOLTING IF HE IS SO INCLINED. That`s the long and short about the bit. After you read my comments and others on this forum, give this issue some thought and come up with a plan for you and Shilo. You are really good at covering details with him and for him. I know you will find a way.
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.There are many ways to approach the new training. #1 See if your trainer can find another horse to be in the arena with Shilo. If her Arabian and Shilo can co-exist, maybe she could ride her Arabian slowly around will you work with Shilo. Being with another horse sometimes eases the excitement that a new environment brings to a horse. #2 The use of a mannequin has already been mentioned above. I personally have used this approach with great success. I can take you through how to make one if you choose to go that way. Remember the whole idea of Monty`s instruction on those tapes was to let the horse MOVE THROUGH their tunnels of terror in a safe environment. THEY DESENSITIZE THEMSELVES. Then, it is up to us to fill in the spaces that connect us to them.
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.See what the others have say as there are many ways that you could go. YOU AND SHILO WIIL GET THROUGH THIS TOGETHER.
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All the best Bud

HI Dianne, really don't worry if the post is long, sometime when we do that we find out answers along the way.
Re the bit. When I have the feeling 'it's not quite right' on something but I go ahead and do it because someone else says it's better, my not quite right feeling gets stronger until something goes wrong that I new deep down would, then am upset that I didn't listen to myself. If that makes sense.
You are getting to know your horse and it's personality so when someone even an experienced trainer suggests something for your horse, who they do not know, and you get that 'i'm not sure it doesn't feel right, then you are acting along with the knowledge of your horses personality. If it feels wrong, then it will be wrong.
Bud is right bitting a horse doesn't stop the bolting, finding out the cause of the bolting and addressing that will help stop it. Replaying over in your mind when he bolted you'll see the reason why he did.
There is always a reason, help remove the reason or rather allow the horse to see with good communication there is no reason to bolt and you will calm him.
Do learn the emergency one reign stop, it is valuable at times.
Mel x

Hi Dionne, How are you and Shilo doing? I wanted to share with you what I do about getting my horses ready for the bit. Mind you, this is started from the ground and my position is laying over the left side of the horse with the reins in both hands. This where I introduce both lateral and vertical flexion to the horse. At this time, I also hang a bit on the horse for him to carry only. There is no reins attached to the bit rings. I use a D ring snaffle. It`s just for him to carry and get use to. I just wanted you to have something to think through if you decide that you are going to use a bit. I do not use the bit for my training, but these horses are probably going to other owners and most of the riding world uses a bit for their horse.
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There will probably be times that you will have to jump through some hoops when your under the guidance of the trainer. But I know that you can find your way around, what could be stumbling blocks for some folks. You know your horse like no-one else. Please use your intuition.
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.Mel speaks of the on rein stops; that is bringing one rein back to your hip when in the saddle. This disengages the rear feet and they cross over with the reined side crossing over the unreined side. This maneuver intercepts the natural cadence of the horse`s movement and could control the bolting action. The most crucial thing is the timing of the one rein stop; before the horse is allowed to duck in and take off. Hopefully, your trainer can help you by observation with the timing. If you have any reluctance to get back on Shilo and your trainer does not want to back him, please think about the mannequin for safety. I can help you with construction if you want.
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.Dionne, know that this forum is behind you and Shilo 1000 %. We have your back. Please be safe.
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Your friend Bud

Hello Bud, Mel, Vicci, Kikki, Miriam,australize and everyone else....

Well, today is Thursday.
My training days with Shilo are Monday, Wednesday and Friday out with my trainer.
On Monday, I had to cancel because I couldn't load Shilo in the trailer...he just wouldn't and the stress level for him was getting too high so I stopped.
Yesterday, Shilo walked into the trailer like he had done it all his life so we drove to my trainer.
We longed and it went very well.
Although when we had longed for about 15 minutes, Shilo tried to bolt.... ( read further before you make any conclusions)
After our session had ended I took Shilo outside and let him grass, we walked and talked and just hanged out together.
Then I went to load him and he wouldn't go in.... So , I had to get him in because we were not at home.!!
Shilo stood on the ramp and he had stood there pondering the situation for a few minutes ( this after about 1 1/2 hours of trying to load) I had him in a long line and gloves and helmet on.
My trainer had just taken her other horses in to her stable and was getting ready to load her own horse as she was going out for a picnics.
Suddenly out of nothing, Shilo bolted, I couldn't hang on to him and fell hard.
My daughter ( 16 years old) flew after Shilo, but he was now in full flight crossing roads etc etc to get to a farm on the other side of the village.
I joined the chase ......what did my trainer do ?
She continued filling her car with a picnic.
It took about 30 minutes to catch Shilo , my daughter caught him, and led him back to the trainers house along a very busy road.. I was at the other end of the village and we spoke via telephone.
When we got back, my trainer was still there and was getting ready to drive away.
" oh, I'm so glad he's back, I nearly was crying about this" she said.
Well I nearly turned into mike Tyson and gave her ass a whooping., but I kept calm, clalled my husband to come and led Shilo quietly into the arena and closed him in there.
Shilo was frightened of course, and I was very upset. ( not with him)
My husband came and it took us another 2 hours to load Shilo, but eventually it worked and I drove slowly home to our farm.
You should know that I have already emailed my trainer for 2 weeks ago stating that I wanted her to take over because I would not risk anymore injury to myself, but this has been ignored.
So when I got home I called ' Denmarks best trainer' spoke with her about Shilo and the problems I was facing, also with my trainer, also about the bit and lots of other things.
Shilo is now having a break from it all and when this lady has a slot , Shilo will be going to Sjælland to her and will live there for 8 weeks. He will be trained in to ride WITHOUT a bit and with a treeless saddel.
She and her team train 5 horses a month ALL without bit., she uses no equipment to start with and everything is done with the horse on his terms. I will post her website and you will be able to see her in action.
All in all there is only one thing to say " you get what you pay for"
And of course, I'm finished with my former trainer.
I have never in my whole life experienced such behavior in a time of crisis.

This was the short version of the story !!!!

Dionne.

Www.mielykkenielsen.dk

This is where Shilo is going to be a guest over the summer.

Best regards

Dionne & Shilo

WWW.mialykkenielsen.dk

It's Mia with an 'a' and not an 'e'.....sorry. !

PS. Mia has ordered me not to train with Shilo anymore, or at least attempt to ride.
She lives a very long way from me, if you look at a map of Denmark, I live on the mainland, the bit joined to Germany, she lives on an island called Sjælland where the capital Copenhagen is.
It's about a 4 -5 hour drive.
Mia has over night facilities at her training school where owners can stay weekends if they live too long away, so I will be staying weekends with Shilo and getting much needed trading from Mia.
I feel very upset and didn't sleep a wink last night just pouring over the ' what to do' question. But when I went over to my stable this morning and saw his face I just knew that a) a bit will never come in his mouth b) I choose the wrong trainer c) I did much better on my own before hiring the trainer. d) I won't compromise.
So with that I wrote a straight forward email to my trainer, a little stern maybe but all deserved.
Emptied and clean my trailer out from yesterday, put my saddle on the rack and said goodbye to that for a couple of months and then I told Shilo that he was now on holiday.
Now I'm writing this and pouring out everything to you guys and I'm feeling a lot better, the stress I felt Is gone, so I imagine that Shilo too is much happier.
The sun is shining here in Denmark , and I'm now just waiting and mentally preparing for Shilo to move home for a couple of months. This will happen around June or July..
I'm looking forward to a new chapter, grateful that Shilo and I lived through this terrible experience ( or many of them ) stronger now through a bad experience and bad choices, but really happy I am standing my ground with the bit - or no bit- and a treeless saddel, AND a very professional person backing me ( at a big price ) our future is bright.
Thanks all for your support through this mess.
I'll be checking in now and again and of course keeping you updated with Shilo, and my own progress.
Best wishes to you all from your friend Dionne in Denmark.

OH MY DIONNE, your love for Shilo is so strong. I think every fabric of your body is so influenced by your inner strength as a woman. What a testimony you are to all of us and your family. GRIT has always been mentioned with masculine overtones, but not with you girl. your RESILENCE IS AWE INSPIRING.
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.I am most please that neither you Shilo was injured at the trainer`s. The whole episode was beyond belief and I will leave my feelings at that.
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. The longer that I live on this earth the more that I am convinced that the things that we bring into our life happen for a reason and when a love that is strong like you have for Shilo is alive within us, we sometimes have to get slapped in the face in order to put things right direction.
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.I am most happy that you found the trainer that you described. I believe that it is a wise decision not to try to ride Shilo any more. However, with that said, I would suggest that you continue building on that relationship with Shilo in your round pen on sunny days with ground exercises. You have the time now, and hanging out with your horse is time well spent. You will be building yours` and his emotional reserve savings account You could start this with bringing a chair into the round pen and just being with Shilo with the intention of enjoying each others` company.
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Please keep us in the loop how things are going for you two.
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Your friend Bud

By the way, I just checked-out your new trainer, Mia. She`s awesome Dionne; you can`t go wrong there. I know a little about her approach with horses as I started the AT LIBERTY APPROACH about 10 yrs ago. With that approach, a trainer usually finds the truth about what a horse is thinking of and how his request is perceived. She is good, Dionne. Remember, you ride the mind of the horse.
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All the best Bud

Thanks Bud, I also think that Mia is the way ahead.
I'll keep you posted.

Dionne.

I'm glad you have found a way through Dionne, really looking forward to hearing how it goes. I (like Bud) have looked at Mia's website and it looks good :-)

Dionne, well done for understanding changes and doing what you feel is best for Shilo.
Bud your reply was spot on, can't add to it ;) .
What Mia is doing is what we want to achieve, riders are not allowed on the horse without the horses say so and there has to be good ground communication before that. I'll check her out more, thanks Dionne.
Have a good weekend everyone.
Mel
x

Thanks everyone,

Hi Dionne How is everything going for you and Shilo? I wanted to say that I got to see the pictures of Shilo. WHAT A BEAUTY; you must be so proud. You and Shilo have come a long way over the last few months. `Know, that we all are so looking forward to his training sessions with Mia. I have watched several of her videos and would not hesitate to take one of my horses to her. The freedom that she allows the horse is the key for me. Me thinks that you will be smiling. Until next time, your friend Bud