Hello Lizzie
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Good on you for taking on a Rescue Horse or two :-) My husband and I took one on last October. They can be challenging, but you can always work through those challenges if you have the right attitude and patience.
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Firstly, have you attempted Join-Up with your boy who is striking? If not, that will be a good first step.
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If he were my horse, I would do Join-Up with him a few times and start working with the Dually Halter. There are some Lessons on the Dually and how to use it and also there is a new series of lessons being added on leading your horse. Those along with the Join-Up lessons will be good for you.
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Once your horse has Joined-Up with you and understands the Dually Halter, I would school him with the Dually Halter when he strikes out or stamps on the ground when you are trying to work with him.
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However, in saying that, striking, stomping and rearing are very dangerous, so it may be a good idea for you to spend the money on that professional you were thinking about. Especially if you are a novice horse owner as you say. The other benefit would be that if this person is a Monty Roberts person, you will get some one-on-one personalised practical training in the use of these fantastic methods
;-) That would be pretty good :-)
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The other reason why I say this is that here on the Uni, we can only offer advice based on what you write and our own experiences. The value of having someone actually SEE what you and your horse are doing is priceless; especially since these behaviours can be so dangerous and this person is a Monty Roberts person.
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My rescue horse was very disrespectful when we first got him. He was fine when everything was going his way, like he would follow me around and be all sweet; but when it wasn't he could be a bit of a challenge. His favourite thing to do was to point his bum to us if we put what he considerred to be too much pressure on him and threaten to kick. He also used to paw at the ground when I asked him to stand while I was grooming him or if I was just standing having a chat to someone. He injured the top of my husbands foot once by pawing. It seemed like he was being impatient to me... No matter what he was feeling, its not good for them to do this kind of thing.
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My husband and I schooled him with the Dually Halter every time he did these things. At first, he acted out at us and reared (which was a bit daunting), but we continued to school until he worked out that playing up was hard work and his acting out was not going to change our intentions or what we were asking him to do!
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The other thing to keep in mind here, is that you are not being unreasonable in asking your horse to behave in a safe manner. But you DO have to show him what is and is not acceptable behaviour.
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Renacer also did not like being hosed or wet, which we found out the hard way. So, what I did was complete my basic ground work first. For example, desensitising work with plastic bags on a stick the way Monty Roberts does and we walked him over the tarp and all kinds of things before we tried the hose again.
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After the desensitising work, we tried the hose again, and it was so much easier for him to accept. He had more trust in us and was less afraid of the whole process. And he understood the Dually Halter even better by that time and that really helped too.
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I introduced the hose first to his front feet and gradually worked up his front legs until I could hose him on the withers, and then the rest of his body. Also, keeping the hose on while he moved and taking it away when he stood still. He was also wearing the Dually Halter so we could school if we needed to.
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Not sure if any of this will help, but you will get some great advice and support from all the people here on the Uni. I really think you should get a professional to drop in just to make sure you are on the right track though.
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Good luck, and I too am sorry for writing a novel in response to your post :-) Hope it all works out for you. Please keep us all posted on your progress.
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Kind regards,
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Gen

Hi Gen, thanks so much for your reply.

I haven't done join-up as I read somewhere (I am fairly sure it was Monty who said this) "do not attempt join-up with a remedial/rescue horse if you are inexperienced - leave it to a professional".

I am worried about doing it wrong so want to make sure that the boys get the right training. Also, they are in a field so I think join-up would be tricky for a novice to do.

I'm increasingly thinking that it is dangerous for us to do too much with him until he's had join-up and we've seen a professional school with the Dually.

My concern is that if we attempt things with him before he's had join-up/Dually training and he kicks off, he is resorting to a behaviour pattern to lash out with to get his own way. Because we are novices we back down when it gets scary which leads to his behaviour becoming more ingrained and consequently doubly hard to undo in the future.

The only reason I haven't yet brought in the trainer is cost. I'm hoping to be able to afford it in the next month or so. In the meantime how would you advise we deal with him if he goes to strike - is there any blocking/distraction method (such as the shin for when they try to bite) which might make him stop and think or can you only deal with this with a Dually?

Your account of Renacer sounds identical to my boy - sweet as can be when everything is going his way but a real challenge when things aren't! I definately want to sort this out asap as I want to have a horse with good manners and for us to be safe in his company. I've been telling my hubby we need to do join-up and dually work before we can progress and you've confirmed that for me.

We did rig up a stick with glove so we could try using that to do some desensitising work - I've just been a bit put off for fear of getting hurt as I find it terrifying when he kicks off. Also, I am aware that my adrenaline levels must be sky-high. I'm really trying to do the exercises Monty talks about in his book. It is still a work in progress though!

Anyway, will sign off for now and thanks again for your reply. I am so glad I signed up to the Equus Uni!

Lizzie

Lizzie
I want you to take my advise seriously and keep in mind that your safety is the most important thing, it is not about getting your horse to behave. A horse that bucks is trying to get rid of you, not to hurt you. A horse that strikes is trying to hurt you and he means business. For whatever reason your horse has decided that he is in charge and you are to follow him or else. In a herd situation the lead horse, usually a mare, will tolerate behavior that is testing her or him up to a point. At that point the horse will charge the other horse bitting and striking. This action puts the horse back into the herd with good manners!

Don't try to second guess why your horse is striking out, you will probably be wrong in your guess. You need to protect yourself and to get the horse away from you. To really correct this problem you need to have quick reflexes and an aggressive manner. If a horse starts at you to strike and you run away, he knows that he can intimidate you anytime, but is you move to his side and push him sideways, preferable with a giddy up rope or lead line, waving your hands and yelling at him. You have to do this immediately otherwise if you wait any more than two or three seconds the horse my not get the connection that he cannot strike. Horses are very smart and if you can scare him to move away from you you will be ok. That is only the first part. If you decide you can do this safely, once the horse moves away from you stop and let him compose himself. He will be upset and fearful, so you need to be calm and quiet. If you still have a lead line on him wait a few second for the horse to gather himself then slowly pull the horse towards you. Don't look at him straight on but rather look at his chest and be aware of how he is walking towards you.
All this would be easier if you have him in a round pen or small coral rather than the open field, but it works in both situations.
If you are unsure of your ability to be aggressive with your horse don't try it. He will know if you mean business or if you are afraid of him. The only reason I am even suggesting this as a course of action is that you don't have the money for a professional trainer to correct the problem, and you cannot keep letting your horse strike out. He will be successful one of these days. Remember your horse is not bad, he just does not know his place or how to behave around people. He is treating you as a horse that is low on the totem pole.

Cheers

Hi Lizzi,
I'm going to tell you something that may seem silly, OK.
You say you are a novice, right and that you are frightened at times of the horse so I'm going to suggest you go to the videos on the UNI for children.
The reason I am suggesting this is you will learn so much from these 9 videos that can help you build confidence in yourself, one step at a time.
There is also something in there that will catch your attention that will keep you safe.
I was first introduced to horses almost 55 years ago and recently I received a brain injury from a car accident and have short term memory loss and cannot remember too much from before,either.
I do a lot of research and read everything I can to help me.
When I watch these videos I have to watch them many times to remember what Monty is asking of me. Don't be afraid to do the same thing.
Our safety and that of the horse is the most important thing to Monty.
I want you to be safe and happy with your new adventure.
I hope my suggestion has not been offensive in any way.
A fellow horse lover,
Ronda

Hi there Ronda and Dennis - want to thank you both for your replies.

Ronda - thanks for the suggestion about the UNI for children - it's a great idea and one I don't think I would of thought to go to. I will definately watch the videos over and over!There is so much subtle detail in those videos that I've benefited already from the few I've seen a couple of times over. I want to learn and do the best by my horses so never be afraid to give me advice - I don't have a big ego or anything like that, so please don't worry on that score. On a personal note, I am so sorry that you had a brain injury - I can't imagine what you've been through and I wish you all the best with your recovery. Keep passing on your knowledge it is wonderful to be part of a forum like this and invaluable education as well as meeting like-minded Equus people!

Dennis, I really appreciate your suggestions on managing my boy until I get the horse whisperer in. I'd been looking everywhere for some kind of guidance on how to handle the immediate management of his behavour and your advice has been invaluable. I had thought it would be an important thing to 'send him away' when he behaved inappropriately but wasn't sure how to go about it. My husband and I are going to sit down and plan how we put your suggestions into practice for when we are 'in the moment'. We don't want to have a discussion about it when it's happening if there is a short window of opportunity for him to understand the connection that he must not strike.

I found your sage words were just so on the money. Whatever the reason for the striking it is imperative that I stay safe but also understand the dynamics of his behaviour. Your explanation of how horses behave in the wild helped to put it all in context.

Thsnk you both so much and if anyone reads my original post and has any other ideas I'd appreciate those too. As I said above, I am totally open minded to everyone's advice and suggestions.

Best regards,

Lizzie

Hi Lizzie! Where are you located?

Lizzie
I am so glad that I could help. You are correct that sending the horse away is a discipline measure. Usually I will back the horse when he needs to have his manners tuned up. I do if fairly rapidly and with some energy behind it. I did not think that this would be a safe method with your horse. Once he understands that striking is not permitted or if he needs a little schooling for other problems, I would use the backing method. If you notice Monty, he will back a horse a few steps (3 or 4) then turns and walks swiftly forward which tugs on the horses lead line and signals him to walk forward and catch up to Monty.
One thing that I forgot to mention is don't push on the side of your horse to move him away from you. Horse will move into pressure rather than away from it. You can try lightly pressing on your horses flank when he is tie up and you will see that he will lean into you rather that away from you

Good luck and I think you are doing a wonderful thing, taking on a rescue horse. Don't get discouraged, you will be able to handle him correctly if you can keep calm and quiet, and be clear in what you are asking your horse to do. I hope you will let everyone know how it is going

cheers

Hi Lizzie, how is everything going?
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Dennis has given you some pretty good advice. I agree with you that you should not attempt Join-Up if you are not confident.
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Also, you probably shouldn't do much with him until you can get a Trainer to come by and have a look at the situation.
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Dennis is right in advising you to make the horse go away if he acts badly, we have had to do this to Renacer too when he has been pushy with us when he has not been on a lead of any kind.
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When schooling Renacer back with the Dually Halter, we did it like Dennis describes, rapidly with with some energy to show him that his behaviour was not acceptable.
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Your action to send him away or to school him with a Dually, must be within 2 or 3 seconds to be effective as Dennis says. Make sure you look him in the eye too when sending him away.
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Its also important that you and your husband come to an agreement on how you are going to deal with this horse so that your actions are consistent. Consistency is very important.
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I also used to have a lot of trouble controlling my heart rate when things got scary :-) I still struggle with a pounding heart every now and then. You will learn to control your adrenaline as you gain confidence (that has been my experience any way).
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When things get scary for me, I try to act normal, with a calm heart and a smile on my face :-) (making sure I am safe as well of course). Sometimes that is easier said than done...
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Also, I would not do any desensitising work until you have been able to achieve Join-Up. And don't try the Join-Up until you can get some guidance from that Trainer you were talking about.
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Stick to what Dennis recommends until you can get the Trainer out there. Everything he says, is what we did with Renacer and it has all turned out well for us, and it will for you too.
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We didn't get a Trainer to help with Renacer because I was confident enough in myself to give it a go (but please don't think that I am an experienced professional, because I am not, and I made heaps of mistakes). I have had horses all my life and unfortunately, most of the horses I have had up until recent years have had problems, so it takes a bit to put me off. But when something does get to me, I seek help pretty quick :-)
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Good luck Lizzie, and keep us posted.
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Kind regards,
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Gen

Oh Dennis,
HELP!!!!!
Star has been acting so strange lately. For the past week she has tried to run me over, when I try to put the halter on her she rears, when I attempt to groom her she jumps around and so on.
I'm not sure what is wrong with her but it's probably me, I guess.
As you know I have been working with her for 2 years now and it seems I get one step forward and ten bwck.
My daughter says I'm too easy on her and not an aggressive person. My husband agrees with her.
Does that really make that much of a difference. She is remedial and I don't want to make her worse.
I'm just so discouraged and confused.
If I could afford it I would go to Flag-Up Farms today.
I'd really appreciate your advice.
Ronda

Hi Lizzie,

You got a lot of good advices and also I learn from this.
On the 28 of september I asked a question on the forum about "question and video". Maybe you want to read that.
I was thinking maybe it is a good idea for you too, to video it (if possible) and put it on you tube. So we can see what is happening and maybe you can explain yourself to us what you think you are doing.
It is just a suggestion.
Cheers May.

Oh Ronda,

I am sorry to read that....
Sometimes people say to me also that I am to kind and to easy with Renske, but if I don't have to be "straight" to her why should I do so. They say that I have to be more firm. Yes I agree on that in some cases you have to do this because of the safety of yourself and the horse.
But you know My Star very well and if you are always acting like this to My Star and she reacts alright, why is she doing this now? Oké, you know that you do one step forward and 10 bwck, but I have got the feeling that this is different.

My question is, is there anything changed in this past week.
Or did you change something yourself? Or did something happen without your knowledge (difficult ofcourse).
Maybe it sound very silly, but could it be a new scent around you?
For me it is something she want's to tell you. Try to make connection/contact with her, like sitting down and let flow your energy to her and vice versa. Maybe you will get contact with her and she can tell you in pictures or words what is wrong. (hopefully you don't think I am crasy).
Good luck Ronda and be carefull. Be yourself in this and follow your hart.
Have a nice weekend, May.

Ronda
Sound like MyStar has a change in attitude. It occurred to me that she may not be getting enough work and she is getting bored again. She is a pretty young horse and if they don't get their energy out they get frustrated and can act out. I don't remember if you have a round pen or not. If you do take her in and turn her loose. and send her away at a canter if you can. You will want to go through the motions of doing a Join up but instead of having her change directions after 5 circles keep he going for 8 or nine then have he change direction and repeat keeping her going at a good fast clip. MyStar may give you all the signs of wanting to do a Join up but I would not let her dictate when. You will want her to get a pretty good sweat going before you let her slow down. Once she has started to sweat, I would ask her to change directions randomly. Sometime have her go 3 circles then 5 back down to two etc. Keep her going in the round pen until she gets down to a walk. Have her walk on and let her slow down at her own pace. She will eventually just stop and turn towards you. At that point I would just stand still and not give her any direction, but rather avoid paying any attention to her. When her breathing gets back to normal, if she has not walked up to you casually walk towards her and give her a good rub on her face and massage her withers if she is still calm.
One other thing is when you put a halter on her walk her in a couple of circles with the lead line before you do anything else with her. It seems that walking a horse in a circle will calm them and afterwards lets them focus on you.
Who is her and the bunny doing? If she is still paying attention to the rabbit you might want to change the location of the rabbit in her stall. something different for her. If you can get a tetherball hang it in her stall just above the hight of her ears. She will start to play with that when she gets bored.
Let me know how it goes. Keep safe and enjoy the challenges that MyStar if giving you.

Cheers

Thanks to all (again!) for your comments. I think I only feel confident enough to send him away if he's not in a halter but not confident when he's on a halter and lead rope. Also, our lead rope is not megga long like the ones you guys are probably using with the Dually halter etc so another reason not to send him away as we'll go with him!

I suppose sending him away is easier and safer when he's not wearing a halter but the problems occur when he's in a halter and being asked to do something so he really needs training in that situation. I don't have a Dually etc so I think I'm not going to get this sorted until the Monty trainer can come and do Join-up and Dually training. That way I can watch close-up how he does things. It is frustrating as I really want to get things moving!

Ange.talor - you asked about location. South Wales/English border.

Ronda, really sorry you're having problems with star - I hope things improve.

Speak to you all soon. Have a great weekend with your horses! Lizzie

Ronda
I forgot to mention one thing. After you work your horse and they have developed a sweat, cool them down by walking them or keep her walking in the round pen until she cools down. I would then take her to the wash rack and run water on her legs. If you put a nozzle on the hose and set it for a stream this will help message her joints and cool the muscles. If she has developed a good sweat and the weather is mild I would hose her whole body and particularly her chest and neck. If the weather is cold then just do the legs. Since my horse is a gaited horse we pay particular attention to their legs and joints and always hose them off after they have worked.

Cheers

Thanks so much May and Dennis.
When I got up this morning I noticed Star did not drink hardly anything at all, maybe 3-4 inches of water.
She had also passed dark water.
I called her vet and she started her on salt with her feed twice a day to increase her thirst and has put her on BUTE for pain for 3 days.
She will call me back on Monday to see how she is.
I was just out in one of her fields with her, she was jsut loose in her pasture, and of course I was crying, as usual, and she came right to me.
As I was walking she followed and when I stopped she did as well and I rubbed her.
Poor little thing, I'm so worried she might be ill.
This behaviour is not her normal youthful excitement.
Yes Dennis I have a round pen and that is the way I work her, at random, and to build muscle for her.
We just went for a walk this morning spending time together.
Thank you,
Ronda
PS: She still watches Buggsy

Ronda
What a lucky horse to have you as its leader. I hope all is well with MyStar and she gets back to being her old self. It is amazing that horses and for that matter a lot of animals have a way of know when you are hurt, sad, happy. MyStar is as observant as you are.

Cheers

Hi everyone,
Just wanted to let you know how STAR is doing.
When I gave her her first dose of Bute for the pain I mixed it with molasses. I offered her the spoon to let her smell it and she started to lick it right away !!!
She had no problem licking that mixture out of her bucket.
Plus when I offered it to her the molasses was on a metal tablespoon so maybe she won't have too much of a problem accepting her bit, yea.
Also, the salt worked too, she drank almost 5 gallons of water last night and ate all of her hay and feed too.
I was able to groom her also.
I'm very happy with the results today.
Thank you for your support,
Ronda

Hi Ronda,

I am so happy for you and Star.
I can imagine how nervous it makes you and upset you, when you don't know what is wrong with Star.
She knows that you want to help her and trusts you even with the metal spoon!!
Good luck, Ronda. Star has a super "nurse" who takes care, gives all her love and attention.
Cheers, May

That's so funny, May,
When my husband received a skull fracture last November, the surgeon allowed him to come home to me because they called me super nurse.
I found that funny, not the injury, but the title they gave me, I felt and feel anything but that.
Yes it is true, a lot of worry. The poor horses cannot tell us, I am ill, I need your help. We have to watch and know them and do our best, right?
Ronda

Hi all - great posts here. I have enjoyed reading the excellent advice you have received re your rescue horse, Lizzie. So sad to hear that My Star had a set back, Ronda, but it does sound as if she may have had some stomach problem - your quick reaction has probably saved her from getting cholic. So pleased that she has started to feel better - well done. Gen and Dennis have given you such excellent advice, Lizzie that there is little to add. If you don't have a dually then it does seem safer for you not to attempt to catch your boy until after a professional can help you with join-up and the dually. However there are still many things you can do while he is in the paddock to gain both his trust and respect. Allow him to follow you around and give him a rub on his forehead if he comes up to you submissively. If he shows any aggressive tendencies at all then chase him away - forcefully if necessary - you may need to carry a wand or something with you and wave this at him to ensure he backs off immediately when you ask him to. Once you have chased him away see if you can then approach him or stand still and see if he will come to you submissively but be ready to chase him away again if he doesn't. Spend as much time in the paddock with him as you can. If you feel it is safe you may even try to feed him in a trough in the paddock but make sure he keeps away from you while you take his food in, put the food in his trough then step away while he eats. This will help build his trust. Many horses with sensitive skin hate being washed and the drips of water running down their bodies does make them very agitated and they will tend to kick and strike to get rid of the drops. Only try this again once you are confident with his dually training and his ground manners. One question re his lying down in the paddock in front of you. How often does he do this? It is unusual for horses to lie down much unless they have some injury so that maybe something to think about too. I really admire you for taking on rescue horses as they are a huge challenge even when you have a lot of experience. Good luck with it and keep us posted re your progress.

NB Always remember your eyes and note from Monty how to use them appropriately for both sending your horse away -eyes on his eyes and for asking him to accept you - eyes down.

Hi Maggie

I don't think my boy is ill but will keep an eye out. His companion does the same and I thought it was because they feel so comfortable around us. They often sit down for a bit and watch us clearing the field, then get up and come over to nose the wheel barrow and make a general nuisance of themselves! Whenever he or his companion come up to me to say hello they always get a rub on their forheads and lots of cuddles. They actually seem to ask for cuddles!
They love having their faces stroked and a general fuss so I think we've got some good bonding going on with them there.

I have some news I'm brimming to share with everyone. I have been in touch with the horse whisperer! We will probably be eating beans on toast for a few weeks but I'm so excited to be getting him in. I had wanted him to come this weekend but he isn't free and I'm so frustrated that he can do some days but we're not free - grrrrr! Hopefully all the diaries will match and we can get him to come to us in the next few weeks or sooner if he agrees to come out on a Sunday.

You can bet I'll be telling you guys all about it after he's been down. Just wanted to share that news with you all.

Lizzie xx

Ronda, so glad that Star has improved. I'm sure she understood you were trying to help her. Well done 'super nurse'! Lizzie xx

Great news Lizzie re your contact with a Monty trainer. Very exciting for you and thanks for sharing it. Good luck with it and I hope he meets your expectations.

Hi there everyone. Just wondered if you had any thoughts on horses lying down? Maggie flagged it up as a possible injury problem but I thought my boy and his companion did it in front of us as they feel relaxed and trust us?

I couldn't find anything on the Uni site about it so I have done a general Google search - copied and pasted below. Would be really interested on your thoughts.

"Horses rarely lay down on their own, and usually they do it when there is a horse near by. This is in relation to the fight or flight reaction. When they feel safe, they will relax and lay down, though one horse is always standing alert in case of danger. This too happens in paddock conditions. Some horses feel so safe they lay down when no horse is around, however this is due to captivity and breeding".

Best wishes to all. Lizzie
PS Horse Whisperer coming in 2 weeks!

Lizzie,
My daughter has six horses and they all lie down. So much so that you can lie on them and have your picture taken.
They do this even at night, it is so cute.
They have always done this and are perfectly healthy.
They are kept in their pastures all year round and even do it in the winter.
My Star lies down as well, in her pasture, especially on a warm summer day, I have pictures of her and they are some of my favourites.
Also, when I go in her barn in the morning there are times she is lying down and gets up when she is aware of my presence.
I always thought it is because they feel safe. That's what I read in my research.
I'm very envious of your help coming, good for you.
Take care,
Ronda

Thanks for the reassurance Ronda - my boys are so cute and lie down frequently in front of us. My naughty boy even lies down on his own and sighs heavily and really looks relaxed. We are so proud of them that they trust us enough to do it. Like you, we have several pictures of them doing it as they are so cute.

I will share all the info I get when my horse whisperer comes. I am now crossing off the days! Lizzie xx

Thanks Lizzie for checking this out. I was just surprised that they lay down so much. Mine lie down occasionally too and allow me to lie on them when they are doing so but mostly they are standing. Any time in the past when I have had a horse lie down a lot it was injured with sore hooves or sore back hence my query. I like what you found out from google so thanks for sharing it with us.

No problem Maggie - I'm loving finding out new things about the horses. Tell me, how do you lie on them? I wouldn't try it myself as my babies are obviously unbroken etc but I'm intrigued as to how you would do it. Does anyone have pictures of them laying on the horses? Also, probably a stupid question, but doesn't it hurt them? Also, my days of being slim and trim are in the past so I wouldn't want to squash my horses!!

Oh Lizzie,
You are so funny, you made me have a good laugh, thank you.
Squashing horses, that's sweet!!!!
Remember they can weigh 1000 pounds I don't think you have to worry about that.
With my daughters horses when they are relaxed and lying down we just approach them, rub their bellies and put our back on them or our arm around them and they just look at the camera.
They are real hams.
My little girl, when she is lying down and I approach her she gets up right away as if to say to me, hey there it's about time you came to see me.
When her basic training is over I will teach her to lie down and raise with me in the saddle.
It's an amazaing felling and they just know.
You have a real nice day,
Ronda

Like Ronda this has given me some amusement, Lizzie, so thanks for that. My quietest horse is Ouyen a large warm blood - my tape measure with appoximate kilos on it measured her at 780kilos this week so she is a big fat girl and not squashable by me!. When she lies down she is very placid and I can lie against her as Ronda does and also over her - getting on the side away from her hooves. I think I could climb all over her without disturbing her. I can't lie on my QH Uggs as he jumps up pretty quickly and so does Tricka but when Pie and Nicky lie down they both let me go up and give them a good rub and cuddle and I can lie/sit against them too. Same with my pet cows and bull. Wouldn't recommend doing it with your young fellows as they could try to jump up quickly. The first horse I rode when I was about 5 was too tall (about 14 hands) and fat for me to get on bareback and he was cunning enough to resist being led to a mounting stump by me so I used to give him a bit of food and sit on his head backwards so when he finally lifted his head I had a slippery slide down his neck onto his back. He was extremely quite and when friends and cousins came visiting we would all pile on him - up to 5 at a time unless someone wished to slip of his tail! Good luck with your horse whisperer and keep us posted!!

See, I told you it was a stupid question!! Glad I gave you girls a laugh - I'm always up for a giggle! I think my boys would have something to say if I tried it at this stage ... definately something for the future. Maggie when you mentioned that you can't lie on your QH Uggs, first of all I thought you meant in your sheepskin boot Uggs - I think I have a long way to go with my horsy learning don't I?!

Keep posting, I'm loving reading your comments and advice.

Best to all, Lizzie xx

Would help if I spellt horsey right, too!!

Oh guys this brings back such happy memories for me, thank you all.
Maggie, I saw a video, can't remember which guy but he trained his horses to do that.
He stands in front of them with his back to them, opens his legs and the horse puts it's head down and lifts him up and he slides down their neck and onto their back, so cool!
Everyone piling on, good memories, eh.
Lizzie, your are going to be amazed at how much you will learn and how quickly, too.
And don't worry about spelling, some of us, english is not our first language, so we make a lot of mistakes and sometimes our posts have to be desivered, like a secret code.
And as someone wrote to me, there are no stupid questions.
You enjoy yourself, OK.
Ronda

Hi Lizzie,
Just a thought to add. If you don't mind me saying, it would be good if you can get yourself a dually halter now and watch the lessons about using it, because although you will get this trainer to help you, you still need to learn it well for yourself. The sooner you start absorbing the dually halter lessons the better you will be. You will be wanting to use the dually in the weeks to come so it's an important investment. Purchasing it and learning about it might be a helpful step forward and take away some of the frustration of waiting. All the best!

HI K D - sorry for delay in replying to your message - I've had a ghastly virus and couldn't look at the computer screen for a week ...

I did think of getting a dually but decided against it until the horse whisperer comes as I'm not even sure of the size I need! You are absolutely right about watching the lessons though - I will be spending a lot of this week studying hard - the trainer is comming this weekend. I am soooooooo excited!

Will report back to anyone who is interested on how we get on.

Until then, best wishes to everyone and have a great week!

Best wishes, Lizzie

Hi Lizzie
.
It will be great if you can let us all know how you go :-) Good luck!!
.
Kind regards,
.
Gen

Thanks Gen - you can be sure I will! Lizzie x

Hi Guys

Just had to update you ... the horse whisperer came to visit!

Where to begin? Well, the first BIG surprise was that he didn't do join up. When I asked him he said he didn't need to as the horses were so engaged and wanted to be with us.

He saw our filly first - we'd been having problems with her not respecting our space and barging into us. Also, picking out her feet was hit and miss. Sometimes she would co-operate, other times not and more often than not she'd get sweaty and agitated and push into us. Anyway, he was really impressed with what we've achieved so far (which was a big surprise). She was really intersted in hanging out with us while we explained to him what we thought the problems were etc

Then, he started the training (or learning as Monty would say). Each time she didn't want to co-operate he schooled with the Dually - backing her up and bringing her back and within a very short space of time she understood what was being asked of her. We ended up with me picking up her feet and picking out her hooves over and over again. Each time she got more and more relaxed about the whole process and so did I. I picked out her back hooves for the first time ever and he showed me how to slightly lean against her back end so she would then co-operate in shifting her weight. Also, he got my husband to hold her and move her backwards or forwards to shift her weight distribution so that picking up her feet would be easier. She ended up helping us by accommodating her weight balance. Now, I'm not saying that when we come to do this on our own it's going to be plain sailing but boy what a difference that tuition made!

I also led her around and did the whole pressure and release thing - so much easier with the dually compared to our usual halter. She was such a good girl!

Then we moved on to the boys. Well Smokey had a bit of attitude when it came to having his feet picked up. He even tried to kick out with his back leg during the process. Not in a nasty way, more of a warning. He got schooled straight away - very quickly and clearly got backed right up and brought forward. After lots of attempts he finally allowed us to lift his feet. He then let us do this on several occasions. I also led him round in circles and up and down the field. His mate also managed to get some basic dually training before the session ran out of time and it was getting dark.

What a wonderful experience it was. The day flew by and we were mentally exhausted by the end of it. I now have a good starting knowledge of the dually and even though I've watched lots of the online Uni videos, actually using the dually is incomparable.

This is only the beginning - the trainer is coming back in a few weeks as there is a lot of work on my boy to do and lots of work on filly - she needs to learn to go away from pressure on various parts of her body. In this first lesson she learnt about small amounts of pressure being applied to her shoulder area to move away to make lifting her front feet easier and she did so well. We were so proud.

Not sure if I've explained everything clearly enough, but suffice to say it was an experience well worth having and we don't care that we'll be eating beans on toast for a while as we're broke!

I am going to buy a dually this weekend. I am a bit nervous about fitting it correctly but I will mug up on the online uni instructions. To anyone out there who is 'stuck' or struggling I would definitely recommend getting in professional help. We feel we can now move forward with our horses and having a dually and longer line than we were preciously using will make all the difference.

The trainer may do join-up next time, we're not sure. He told me: "join-up should only be used for the horses benefit, not the humans". Since he trained with Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks I guess he is qualified to make that call and I'm happy to follow his lead.

I hope you all haven't fallen asleep reading this!

Would love to hear your comments. until then, best wishes. Lizzie xx

Hi Lizzie,
Congratulations on this wonderful experience and thank you for sharing it with us!
About the Dually fitting: Start with the neckband, fit it approx. right, then check if the cheekbones are directly over the fixed noseband. If so the length is OK. Now ajust both nose and chinband, so that the metal jointpiece is more or less in the middle of the muzzle.
It should be snug, but not tight, you can check by holding both cheekpieces and wiggle them in up/down and left/right movements. At this point the twisting should be minimum.
Always make sure, that you can pass your 4 fingers under the throatband, so your horse can swallow and breathe freely, and that the trainingband is never on cartilage, always on the bone part of the nose. New Duallies do stratch, you might have to ajust after a while.
Have fun and keep us posted!
Miriam

Hi Lizzie
.
WOW! Congratulations! What a fantastic outcome :-) You are quite right in that you only learn so much from the videos, and the hands on training really does make a huge difference. You are so fortunate to have a "Monty" person close to where you are.
.
Good luck with your work between now and the next time the fellow comes over :-) you are doing a great job.
.
Please do keep us posted :-)
.
Kind regards,
.
Gen

Well done Lizzie, thanks for up dating us. Sounds like it was a great session!

Hi Miriam - thanks so much for the helpful instructions - I really appreciate it.

Thanks Gen for your message - I will definately keep you all posted on progress. You are right, we are so lucky to have a Monty trained person not too far away - I'm not sure how we would have resolved things without that chance to see someone.

Feeling a bit nervous that we'll be doing this on our own tomorrow but I expect each time will get a little easier.

Best wishes, Lizzie

Thanks for telling us all about the visit, Lizzie! No chance of falling asleep!!! :D Lucky you having a Monty-trained trainer nearby!
Good luck tomorrow! Stay calm and I'm sure you will all do OK.

Hi Lizzie,
I've really enjoyed reading this thread and applaud you for what you are doing with your horses, wish there were more people like you (and everyone else on this forum too).

I just wanted to add one little piece of encouragement for you regarding your confidence. I know that when horses act out it can be heart stoppingly scary and your mind literally just blanks, but as you progress and achieve a positive result each time, your confidence will grow and grow, it really truly will!!

When I first started working with younger horses a few years ago, having only really experienced older horses, the scariest thought for me was the thought of one rearing when leading and getting loose. For me that was just the scariest thing I could imagine and it wasn't until one actually did it and I was able to deal with the situation (using all my strength to hold on and get the horse off the pressure) even though I was absolutely terrified, that my confidence in myself across all horsey situations grew.

So, (sorry, long story short) I just wanted to reassure you, that the feelings of absolute fear that arise in those tricky situations will be replaced by your calm confidence as gain more experience. And learning to deal with all the things a remedial horse can throw at you will make you a super horse woman in no time!! All the very, very best and I look forward to reading your progress!

Cheers,
Ailsa

Well done Lizzie,
Enjoy your beans!! It was worth it though wasn't it?
I envy you, there are no instructors near me so I have to rely on the videos and comments.
Monty's ways are comparably new to me, so much more is needed to be successful in his ways.
Thanks,
Ronda

Hi guys - want to thank you all for taking the trouble to reply to my many messages!

Just to let you know that we've done some training sessions on our own since the trainer came and so far all has gone pretty well.

Well, our filly is such a bright little girl. Do you know, that since the trainer came she has just 'got it' almost 100%. I am able to put the dually on her and do some training - just walking forward and round etc and she co-operates. But the truely brilliant bit is that she lets me pick up her feet and doesn't muck about and test me like she did before the trainer came and worked with her. I'll admit I do still have trepidation at picking up her back feet but she is so good. She understands what I'm doing and that I won't hurt her and so is willing to work with me. I am able to apply slight pressure to her shoulder to get her to shift her weight so I can pick up her front hooves. I forgot to lean against her back quarters when lifting her hind legs but it didn't matter in the end as she willingly lifted her back legs. Wow, what a result!

My shy boy is also doing absolutely brilliantly. Even though he gets a bit scared about lifting his front legs (the trainer explained that is the most difficult thing for them as their balance is mostly centred on those front legs so lifting them makes them feel vulnerable) he is really trying to work with us. It melts my heart to see him really trying to go along with what he's being asked to do. I think he is trusting us more and more and kind of understands that we'd never do anything to hurt him so he is going that extra mile with trusting us. It is so humbling.

Well, Smokey is another mattter ...! Yikes, he was the one I orignally started the 'striking out' post about and he is a fiesty fella. I guess it is all about his confidence and him finding the strenghth to trust us but boy is he a challenge. Well, I haven't even got to lifting his leg yet - we are still on real remedial stuff like getting him to walk with me without kicking off. The first week after the trainer came he was OK and we did manage to get him to walk on. Last week however was more of a challenge.

He wants to fight the dually so I have to really pull him to come to me. I think I've cracked it and 5 mins later we are back to square one, only this time he tries to rear up. Boy oh boy, as hard as I tried to keep the adrenalin down my heart was absolutely pounding. When he tried to pull away I held onto him until we'd got to the end of the lead rein and then it was a question of me having to let go if he carried on. The trainer said to me that if he managed to pull away and up and I got to the end of the rein I had to let go as otherwise there'd be a danger of him pulling into the pressure and going over onto his back which'd be really dangerous.

Thankfully, it didn't get quite as scary as that but it did get a bit close! He tried to pull away, I hung on and he stopped. I backed him up (mind you, I forgot to do the 'eye on eye'bit), then (at Dennis's suggestion in a previous message) I gave him three seconds to compute what'd happened and that he'd been schooled, then I draw him back to me and released the dually pressure and gave him a forehead rub to let him know we were still friends.

At the end of the session he was quite warm so I am now wondering if I should have kept the training session to just 5-10 minutes - not sure. Anyhow, after the session I took off the dually and gave him a big rub and fuss. Unlike the other two who really enjoyed and responded to the fussing and praise at how well they'd done, Smokey wasn't interested and just walked off. Yikes, now I'm humanising it and thinking - has he lost trust/affection for us?

I guess he needs to get his head around the fact that he thought he was the leader of the pack and now we're effectively telling him WE ARE!

So, that's what been happening at this end.

Once again, thank you all for your comments and advice - I love reading what you have to say and it's such a comfort to know that our challenges are not unique. A special thanks to Ailsa too for your lovely words of encouragement - it has helped so much to know you understand what it's like to feel so scared but still end up making progress.

We've been eating beans and jacket potatoes Ronda, but you're right - it has been so worth it. The trainer will come again sometime in December which we're really looking forward to.

I think this has been my longest entry yet. Hope you haven't all gone to sleep!

Speak to you all again soon.

Best to all, Lizzie, x
)

Lizzie
Great. i am glad things are starting to go forward. Smokey is acting just like an independent horse and is testing you to see if you really mean what you are asking of him. One suggestion regarding removing the halter. Never let your horse just walk away without you releasing him. When they do that they are in charge and have little regard for you. When I remove the halter on my horse he will stand next to me until I tell him he is free. This did not happen overnight. Every time I removed his halter I would buckle it around his neck and hold him still. I would then unbuckle the halter at the neck but hold on to both ends for a few seconds then slowly drop the halter from his neck and bring it to my chest. At that point I have released him and he can move away if he wants. I give him a good rub on the face and I talk to him in a quite voice about how good he is. He will usually stand there quietly until I walk away. Try doing this with Smokey but don't be harsh and make your movements slowly and quietly. Taking to him in a low tone, I have a deep voice so it is easy for me, and work in baby steps. He will start to want to be with you but it could take a bit of time.

Cheers

Dennis this is such an important comment! My dad looked after my TB for me for the winter one year and had a bad habbit of shooing him away when he took the halter off. When i got my boy home he would begin to blast away as soon as i had my hand on the halter to release him. It was sooo dangerous and frightening as i was afraid he could pull me over when he blasted! So i went through the process you suggest and it worked beautifully. I too believe the horse should wait to be let released. It not only is respectful but a lot safer too!

Lizzie i have just read this whole stream and commend you for your efforts and for your perseverence! Well done and keep up the great work!

Janelle

I just read everything as well and this is great advice.
Thank you Dennis for your release comments.
I have been ill and my husband has been caring for STAR for a while and he has just let her go instead of slowly releasing her.
She too has gotten into the habit of just going.
Yesterday I was able to go out with her and I noticed this right away so I did almost what you said, it was better but not perfect, I'll do this again and remind my husband.
Lizzie, great job, I'm very proud of you as I'm sure all of us are.
Keep up the good work,
Ronda

Thanks for your comments Dennis and Janelle.

I wonder Dennis if you could advise what I should do if, when I remove the halter and then buckle around his neck and hold him still, what do I do if he tries to pull away and stomp (his favourite thing)? When the dually is on him I can obviously back him up if he stomps but with the buckle only around his neck I am unsure how to then school/deal with him assertively but safely when he stamps the ground?

Sorry to have to ask for more advice it's just that I am really keen to do it well and as safely as possible. Just thinking about dealing with him again is making me feel stressed!

Thanks very much as always, Lizzie

Sorry Dennis and Janelle, I wanted to also ask: do you think that 10-15 minutes is too long to be training with him? I want him to have a positive feeling at the end of training but the length of time has ended up being that way because I don't want to release him of the training while he is still unco-operative.

What do you reckon? I am in no rush to push him further than is good for either him or me but I don't want him to play up knowing that'll end the session. Thanks again! Lizzie

Ronda - your post just came in. I'm really sorry you haven't been well - I hope you're feeling better now?

Isn't it funny how something can seem like a relatively insignificant thing (releasing our horses) but can actually have such a profound impact on how they view things and us? I'm so glad I mentioned this walking off thing that Smokey did - I wouldn't have had the knowledge to work out just how much of a statement he was making. Lizzie

Hi Lizzie, In regards to your question about time frames.... I don't think 10 to 15 minutes is too long to work with smokey. I always try to end on a good note with my horses, so if you have been going for 5 minutes really well, then you can end there. If you need more time to work on an issue that is fine too, as long as you end with something positive. I know it is hard to know just how far to go but trust yourself enough to gauge when all is well, then finish.
When you are releasing him, i wouldn't buckle it around his neck. Just undo it and hold onto it while you let the noseband come off, give him a rub on the forehead while doing this to take his mind off the halter, and keep rubbing him once the halter is off. This worked with my TB....He was 16hh and had a long very solid neck! He could pick me up off the ground if i held onto his halter! Hope this helps and i hope all goes well for you and your horses :-)
Janelle

Lizzie
When I tack my horse I take the halter and just put it around his neck then put his headstall on. I leave the halter on his neck until he is completely tacked up and I am ready to ride. He is so use to having the halter on his neck he just stands as if he were tied to the hitching rail when I tack him up. I would start with the horse tied to a hitching rail then move the halter to his neck and just let him stand and get use to it. Be sure that you tie a quick release knot the first time in case the horse panics you can release the lead line.
As far as correcting a horse that stomps and want to get away you will need to correct him as soon as he indicates that he is impatient and wants to leave. You may have to put the halter back on then back him, make him come forward to you and let him stand. If he starts to show his impatience again, back him again then tie him to a hitching rail and move away from him and just let him stand for 20 minters or so. We quite often have our horses stand by themselves while we do other things before either riding them or putting them back in their stall. All our horses learn to stand quietly from the time they are three years old and we are starting to work then. Your horse should always be on your time not theirs. At first they will paw the ground and move around as far as the tie rope will let them, but eventually they just start to stand quietly and at that point we will release them.

Cheers

Hi Janelle - thanks for your suggestions on timeframes. You're right, it is difficult to know how far to go but I was sure I needed to end on a positive note. I think I am also influenced by how stressed I'm feeling - if a particualr segment of training has gone well and then I move onto something that takes longer to achieve then we both can get a bit het-up which makes my adrenalin rise! I think just practising him walking willingly is more than enougn to work on at the moment.

Hi Dennis, the trouble is as far as I can see ... if he has the halter off and then starts stamping - by the time you put the halter back on it is surely too late to school him?

Would a raised/firm voice ... saying "Ay" or "steady" have any affect? Do horses take that much notice of one's voice if we use it to discipline them? Mine are used to me using soothing tones so would a contrast in my voice in these situations make him take notice I wonder?

Also, our ponies are in a field so there is no hitching rail.

Best wishes, Lizzie

Good morning Lizzie,
How are things today?
I was rereading the thread and your last post is a good question and I'm sure you will get many opinions on it.
Are you familiar with Mark Peterson and Dusty?
Look up thier website and you will find it very interesting.
They are also on youtube.
Marks's horse is so famous that Breyer has made a statue of him.
Just go to your internet server and type in Mark Peterson and Dusty and some sites about him will come up.
You can choose his personal website from there.
If you go to youtube, again type in Mark Perterson and Dusty.
His horse and his behaviour reminds me of one of my daughter's horses, Ziggy. He does the same things, it's sweet.
Mark posts to me each day on my facebook account.
A very nice man.
Ronda

Lizzie
You have a point about timing, so you could use the trick of putting your foot on his shine and tapping it as a distraction / signal not to stomp. You really should have a place that you can safely tie your horse. Having a horse stand quietly is just as important as teaching them to back, stop or any other command. I have taught my horse to ground tie where if I drop the lead rope he will just stand their as if he is tied to a hitching rail. Also when a horse is standing quietly his adrenaline is also down and is more relaxed.

Hope this has help with your problem
Cheers

Hi Ronda - I have never heard of Mark Peterson so I will be sure to look him up on youtube - thanks for that!

Hi Dennis - to be honest I'm not sure about the heel on the shin trick - I don't really understand what is done. I don't suppose anyone can direct me to video footage anywhere where it is demonstrated? Lizzie

Ronda, I just looked Mark Peterson up - wow - how does he do it? He actually speaks to Dusty and asks him to do things - how on earth does he communicate with him in such a human way? If I could learn how to get Smokey and Co. to do a quarter of the things Mark does I'd feel very clever. So, I guess my question about using my voice is sort of answered now!

If you know of how Mark trains his horse I'd LOVE to know. Anything that helps to communicate and further the relationship with our horses has got to be a good thing?

Thanks for telling me about Mark! Lizzie x

Lizzie
The foot acts as a distraction. You can also just push him sideways from his shoulder. The idea is to make him move his feet the minute he misbehaves. Obviously your more is bigger than you but a quick shove at his shoulder while throw his balance off and he will move his feet to regain his balance and in doing so he cannot stomp. There is no one right way to distract your horse and make him move so whatever you feel confident in should work.
Also when training Smokey don't worry about time but more about how he is responding to what you are asking. Repetition is a great tool in teaching your horse. If you are teaching him something new and he does it correctly that is the time to stop and reward him and walk around with him so he relaxes. I would then go and ask him to do something that he already knows how to do and reward him for that then stop the lesson. Next training session start with a couple of things he does well then ask him to do what you taught him yesterday. That way you keep building on success after success which makes you happier and if much more rewarding for the horse. If you find your self getting frustrated because the horse is not cooperating he may not understand what you are asking or he also could be bored. Don't put the situation but rather just ask him to do one thing that you know he can do and stop the lesson but don't put him away. I would just walk him and every once in awhile make him stop back and stand. At that point if you feel calm and patient resume you lesson but always always end on a positive note that your horse understands that he did good. I know that training can be real frustrating at times particularly when you know your horse understands what is being asked but if you can remain calm then you are the one in control

Cheers

Hi Lizzie,
So good to hear you are progressing well! This has been a most interesting thread and this forum is wonderful, so many knowledgable people :) Everyone has suggested such great things, just keep working at it, even if it's only tiny little baby steps each day. Your confidence is the most important thing because that's what will allow you to school clearly and effectively, and it's the positive sessions that will build it. Just with tying him up, unless you know for certain he ties well I'd be hesitant to tie him at this stage until he's well and truly learnt to come off poll pressure. It could be a disastrous situation if he's not been taught yet.
Cheers,
Ailsa

Oh, and now I'm curious about this Mark Peterson! I'll have to check it out.

Sorry! Posting three times in a row! But I just thought of something I do and didn't even realise till I thought about how I release young horses back in the field. After I lead them back in, I point them towards where we came in (leaving plenty of room of course), ask for a couple of steps back, give them a rub on the forehead and release immediately and walk off as the reward. I've been doing this subconciously without even realizing till I just thought about it now. I think it came from riding Monty's way, where he suggests you end each session with a few steps back then hop off immediately as the reward.
I don't release my older horses this way, they are just released and will stand there with me for a rub till they wander off. I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on this?

Well Lizzie,
Mark is a pretty nice good ole boy from the States. He had two beautiful dogs that he took everywhere with him, they died and a friend who knew him well and knew how loving he is with animals, everything, decided to give him a horse, Dusty, a RockyMountain horse.
He had never been around horses, nor did he know how to train them, so he treated him like a dog!!! Same type of training and commands.
Remember that horse is so intelligent and Mark is very loving and low key.
His methods works for lots of people but knowing what I know about the horse thought process I'm not sure if it would work for everyone. He says it's his tone and I agree with that.
There are many trainers out there that use all sorts of methods for all sorts of animals, for me as long as they do not harm the animals, in any way, I'm for them.
Someone else you could look up is Dr. Lynn Rogers, he's interesting as well.
When you look him up you will see why I admire him and Mark. It's pretty scary what this man is capeable of doing with this animal, Lynn Rogers, and Mark accompanies him.
For me, years of experience in successfully training horses speaks for itself and Monty has that!!!
That's just my personal opinion.
Ronda

Dennis, thanks for your comments about distraction and training. I am actually thinking of starting from scratch because Smokey won't even walk properly without me having to yank on the dually so even comtemplating lifting his leg or any of the things I'm doing with the other two is way beyond him at the moment. I just found an old Monty video called "gentling your spooky horse" where he gets a young girl to work with a yearling. It is obviously just a segment of what she does with this horse so it doesn't give the sort of detail I really need but some of things she does with the yearling I may do with Smokey. So, if I go right back and start again with him if he finds it easy then he will gain some confidence.

Ailsa, don't mind about posting 3 times - I love reading all your comments! You're right about tying him - I don't feel that would be safe at present so will hold off until he has learnt to come off pressure. I'm not sure how I'd release Smokey as he resides in a field already - do you think if I point him back to the postion I took him from when putting on the daully it would achieve the same thing as you do with your youngsters?

Ronda, Mark has a remarkable gift but as you say, perhaps having an exceptionally bright horse makes s big difference too. Is Lynn Rogers the 'bear man'? If so, I think I saw a programme in the UK about a camerman who spent 6 months filming him and the bears. if it's the chap I'm thinking of he was pretty interesting in the way he dealt with and handled the bears. Gonna have to go and look him up now!

One other thing I weas going to bring up - I saw some footage on youtube of someone called Rick Gore. Now I don't know what anyone thinks of him as a horseman etc but the video I saw "catching a hard to catch horse" was very interesting and I think that could help me with Smokey too.

He speaks about stopping in front of the horse's 'drive line', then when they look at you you should take a step away. Then if they come to you to stroke them with the hand not holding the halter, then back away ("release"). Apparently that then gives the horse the chance to relax. After that he advises to walk first to the right side then the other and touch them on the neck, back up and give some release ... THEN put halter around the neck and lead the horse with the halter around the neck. Knowing Smokey he'll probably think, 'good, this idiot woman hasn't got hold of me, so I'm off!' but I might try some of this so that he feels more relaxed about me putting the halter on in the first place. I think I have been preoccupied with making sure I get that halter on him and probably he feels under pressure from the very begining and so any training I'm doing is starting from a position of him feeling under pressure.

What does anyone think about that? As always, any thoughts you have will be welcomed! Hope you all have a great weekend and speak again soon. Best wishes, Lizzie x

Hi there Lizzie
Just another thought about removing the dually. I had success with a horse that wanted to blast away as soon as you went to undo the halter buckle... did some work with another halter over the top of the dually (needs to be fitted so it doesn't interfere with the dually). This means you can remove the top halter but still have the line attached to the dually, then you can school if you need to. Then the horse got the idea of staying with me after a halter comes off... much safer for my fingers!
Many, many congratulations to you for your patience, persistence and kind heart! :) :)

Hi Lizzie - great to read all these additions to this thread since I last checked in. Firsly congratulations on your progress so far - amazing progress with your filly and your shy boy. Smokey sounds that he is the real challenge and he also sounds quite dangerous so take care. Dennis's advice was great for a more trained horse but I was pleased to note your response re the halter around Smokey's neck as the same questions were running through my mind. No offence please Dennis but it sounds as if Smokey would not be ready for being released like that and he would undoubtedly take off and undo all the good progress Lizzie has made. He sounds as if he is currently a juvenile delinquent and has a long way to go in his training prior to being released in this manner. If I am correct in my thinking he has not even been trained to tie up yet so you are just at the very beginning of his training Lizzie? Gillian's idea above seems best for Smokey. Place a conventional halter over the dually when you first catch him. Have it fairly loose so that the dually is not interfered with but not too loose to be rattly or distracting. Keep the lead rope on the dually discipline ring and then do your training session. Please do not be too ambitious with your training. Congratulations for holding Smokey when he attemtped to ignore the dually and test you out - this was a great win for you but it could have been a great loss if he had managed to pull away. Remember to retain the pressure but move with him if he rares up to prevent him going over on his back - hopefully your lead rope is long enough to do this without endangering yourself. This is where it is so hard training in a field and not a confined area as if they get away they have such a win. If you have access to a round yard that would be so much better for your training. A post and rail round yard is not that hard to make so there is another job for you and your husband if you own your own land. Once your training session is finished ( ditto to all the others - do try to finish on a good note with you and Smokey relaxed) then slowly remove the top halter while you continue to hold the dually halter - immeditately discipline with the dually if he moves at all. Once the top halter is removed and he is standing quietly then slowly remove the dually talking to him and rubbing his forehead all the time. I agree with the advice of having him face towards his field at this early stage as he is then less likely to turn and kick out as he leaves. However do every thing you can to keep him with you as you remove the dually - this is where I would use some chopped up carrot bits or other treats and have these ready for him as your remove the halter - you may care to have them in a bowl so that he isn't taking them from your hands or just have some feed in a bucket close by which you can give him once the dually is off. I carry carrot treats in a bum bag and feed them from my hands but I have trained my horses not to look for them and I only use them in really tricky situations. Please note that Monty doesn't agree with treats and there is controversy concerning there use. Apologies again to all those no ham uni members but in situations like this I find them so very effective.

I do hope your horse whisper does join up with Smokey next time he comes and shows your how to do it as I believe Smokey really needs to have join up done to improve his relationship with you. I also believe the other two would benefit from this but it seems pretty essential for Smokey and I fear he could be dangerous without it. Join up would improve the releasing problem too and make him more willing to wait with you after having his halter removed. It would be preferable to have a confined area or round pen for this and if you do not have one then and perhaps that is the reason why your horse whisperer trainer did not do it initially.

It is great to read all the other excellent advice you have had and I am merely re-iterating most of it. I really applaud what you have achieved so far with your rescue horses. You have taken on such a huge challenge but you seem to be approaching it in such a thoughtful and sensible way which will hopefully ensure your success. It is so great that you have a Monty trained horse whisperer close at hand as that is certainly the way to go. So tough - enjoy those beans and good luck with it all. There is a great old book by Tom Roberts "Horse Control - The Young Horse" here in Australia - a fore runner of Monty Roberts but no relation which you may enjoy reading. If it is unavailable where you are I could endeavour to find a copy for you. Monty is the best - this is just an addition which has really helped me in the past.

Maggie
Not offense taken. I assumed that her horse knows how to be tied. That is the first thing we teach our horses, even before we worry about leading or backing. I want to be able to tie my horse and have them just stand as a safety measure. If I am handling the horse with not on around and I need to get something or need to work on their body I want to be able to tie them. After they have matured a bit I start to teach them to ground tie, which is even more important in my opinion. If I drop the lead line on the ground in front of my horse he will just stand as if he were tied to a hitching rail. This is important particularly if you are on a trial and need to get off to move something out of the way or you come off your horse by accident. You don't want them to take off for the barn.
Lizzie you have got some great suggestions to help you so good luck and let everyone know how you are progressing
Cheers

Thanks Dennis - I really like your advice. It is usually so sound and sensible and we all benefit so much from it. I figured that you may have miss understood where Smokey was at or perhaps I have myself.

HI there all - thanks for the responses...

Gillian, your idea of putting the halter on top is a really good one and I wouldn't have thought of that. Just to be fair to Smokey's reputation (LOL!!)I thought I'd reiterate that he doesn't blast off - he just doesn't respond to the rubbing and fuss - he just walks off when he can and as far away as possible, so I guess he is expressing that he is miffed about having to do the training.

Maggie, You are correct in your assumption that he has not been trained to tie up. He lives in a field which is rented so there is no access to any round yard and a post and rail isn't possible either. I totally agree with you that Join-up would improve the relationship and I'm going to ask the trainer when he comes about that. Last time he said Join-up should be for the horse's benefit not the owner - to be fair we'd gone to do training with the filly first and she was so responsive and 'got it' so clearly that he was maybe still in that mindset before he came across Smokey. Not sure what to think now.

Thanks for your advice about moving with him if/when he rears and not to be too ambitious with the training. My husband has been trying to get me to do more and I've felt out of my depth with Smokey and I have to agree that it's better to do very small amounts of training safely than attempting more than I am competent to do. Also, when I'm 'in the moment' when he is pulling away, attempting to rear etc half the advice tips out of my head as I am so fearful. I have thankfully at least managed to stay with him and followed Dennis's advice to give him a couple of seconds to compute what happened, before I draw him back to me. The advice about putting on another halter over the dually and then disciplining him if he moves is really helpful so thanks to you and Gillian for that.

I will definately look up the Tom Roberts book - it sounds really interesting.

I guess I have to be honest and say I'm kind of loosing my nerve where Smokey is concerned and have started to dread trying the training with him. Having said that, I am relieved to report that the trainer will be coming back in the next week or so and I'm looking forward to having someone knowledgable by my side when we train Smokey next. Add to that - mindful that we are not very well off, the trainer has put me in touch with another trainer who is currently doing her Monty Roberts certificate and who has agreed to come and work with us in the new year when she is free. This is a MASSIVE stroke of luck - she charges less per hour and lives only about 7 miles away from where the horses are. I can't believe our luck - I have to say it has come at the right time before I completely turn into a jibbering, nervous wreck!! I am so appreciative of this lucky turn of events as I'm not sure if I could carry on without this specialist help.

So, all in all there are positive things happening and everything will move in the right direction and hopefully we will stay safe.

Hope you are all enjoying your weekend with your horses! Best, Lizzie x

Oh, sorry everyone, me again ... I forgot to mention Maggie's suggestion of treats. What does everyone think? I have been a diligent Monty student and not fed them to do things. I suppose I'm worried that if I give him a treat after training he will always be expecting it and what happens the day I need to do something with him and don't have treats to hand? Also, do horses actually see them as treats/rewards - aren't they wired to think of food as a necesary thing rather than a reward? Would welcome your thoughts on this topic too! Thanks, Lizzie x

A sensible questions, Lizzie. If you have never used treats then I do believe that it is best not to - you are a Monty student and Monty says "no treats" so that should be sufficient. If I was younger and starting out I probably would not use them either but adhere to Monty's sound advice. It is just that I am a bit stubborn about this which comes with age. As I have used them so successfully all my horsey life it is hard for me not to use them now that I am a Monty student. If you use treats you need to really assess the nature of your horse and to also train them so that they know you are in charge of the treats, to take them gently from your hand, no nudging or looking for them etc. - it does need quite a bit of experience and training so another good reason for not using them. I use them far less now and only do so in emergency or very tricky situations when my horse is frightened or spooky and occasionally still as a reward for good behaviour. As I indicated the use of treats as a reward is very controversial and the majority of Monty's students will tell you NOT to use them. I am pleased that Smokey doesn't take off on you when you release him - this shows that you have already made huge progress so well done in what can only be classified as a difficult training environment - no confined area, no round yard, no post for tying etc. Great news about the Monty student who lives close - lucky you!!

Hi Lizzie,
If you want to feed your horse something good after training, let him find it in his feeder or bucket, when the trainingsession is over. This could be part of "ending on a positive", so making the association with something nice after work. This way it's not associated with your body or your action and still a good feeling. A lot of horses get their cerials according to the amount of work they did, this could be a treat after work, too.
No doubt handfeeding makes bad habits easier to occur, I must say, that a mare I used to ride knew exactly there was no way with me and there was a treat with her owner. Only after being on holidays, I had to remind her once, that I didn't do treats. She came to me anyway and enjoyed whatever plans I had with her, she recognized my whistling and raised her head when I came to her field.
Miriam

Hi Maggie - I see what you mean about using treats only in certain situations. I would say that so far, Smokey has been an absolute diamond on the occasions we've fed him by hand - e.g when we worm him for example, we treat it pretty much as a one off ... we offer him an apple and as he goes to bite into it we shoot the worming syringe into his mouth, squirt, and hey presto worming done. It was my hubby's idea and I have to say it works brilliantly. Other occasions have been when he and his companion have fought over their food and left trails of it - I have sometimes picked up a piece of apple that they missed and (guiltily) given it to him rather then see him walk over it and turn it into compost in his field! On those very rare occasions he has taken the food with real gentleman-like behaviour and been so gentle. I don't want to trash that by starting to feed him regularly by hand and then create a 'bitey' horse. Also, because you are so experienced you know the best way to do the whole treat thing and I'm such a novice I'm bound to create another problem if I get into that habit.
You're right, I am so lucky that this Monty student is near-by - I dread to think how we'd be without this help.

Thanks Miriam for your suggestion about the treat after work. I will give this some thought. I guess I'm still concerned that Smokey and Bandit will see the food after training as 'their right' and that may cause problems? Bandit already has a bad habit of nudging you for food when you first arrive even though he knows we won't give him any food until later. I suspect that some people who walk past their field come and feed them titbits so they kind of expect it. I am thinking of putting a sign up to ask people not to feed them.
Lizzie x

Hi Lizzie, I don't know wh i thought Smokey was blasting away from you but when you corrected that bit i went and re-read the thread....silly me!! Good thing that he doesn't do that, you have enough to deal with without that too! If he is calm and quiet when you take his halter off and then walks off calmly i wouldn't see that as a problem. Sorry for the confusion over the blasting thing! At least you have plenty of fore knowledge if anything like that ever pops up hey!
Have a great day!
Janelle

Hi there Janelle, no worries - there have been so many entries in this thread it is not surprising that it's difficult to remember it all - even for me! It is interesting what you say ... that if he is calm and quiet that you don't see that as a problem. Dennis said in an earlier entry ( I think it was 22 Nov) that he thought Smokey was not showing respect if he did that. I am copying the relevant part he wrote and wonder what other people think? I guess not everyone is going to agree with one another. I suppose I keep asking for clarification so that I can learn what the received wisdom is - I so want to make sure I understand as much about what the behaviour of the horses mean. I want to do the best by them - that's why I keep asking everyone about every detail I'm unsure of. Anyway, this is what Dennis originally said, so any additional thoughts - (agreement or otherwise) that can help me understand Smokey's motivation and thought process expressed in that behaviour would still be appreciated if anyone has anything else to add to this discussion. Just to re-iterate ... Smokey was pretty warm after the training and stood quietly to have the halter removed. I took it off really slowly, didn't clang or bang the halter, just took it off as smoothly as I could then gave him a run on his forhead and rubbed down his neck and in the sweet spot where they groom one another. He seemed to totally ignore the fussing and just walked off. On previous sessions he stood and enjoyed a rub and cuddle and put his head on our shoulders and sniffed us so this occasion was different. Also, all I'd tried to do was to make him walk willingly with me without being dragged. By the end, and after the drama of him pulling away and half rearing up ( I held onto him, backed him up, waited a few seconds for him to compute things, then (looking at his legs/shoulders) I drew him to me and gave him a rub and a fuss and re-adjusted his dually to make it more comfortable). Just to add the final detail ... when I backed him up because I was a bit stressed I forgot to look him in the eye. Could that be the vital missing ingredient? By the end of the training he was just about walking with me. He was still reluctant but didn't rear up or pull away. Anyway, this is what Dennis said:

"Smokey is acting just like an independent horse and is testing you to see if you really mean what you are asking of him. One suggestion regarding removing the halter. Never let your horse just walk away without you releasing him. When they do that they are in charge and have little regard for you."

Lizzie x

Hi Lizzie, I have just watched a couple of the Dually video's...i suggest you do this too as there is no-one better to learn from than the creator! I have to say though that i didn't notice Monty looking the horse directly in the eye as he schooled? Sometimes monty is looking at the shoulder as he is scholing the horse back. Did your Dually come with a dvd to watch? It tells you exactly how to use it and i have to say i have never heard him say to look the horse in the eye as you school...maybe i missed that bit?? I guess the thing to remember is that you are dealing with a remedial horse who can be volatile. It is not uncommon for these types of horses to try and rear up if they are trying to flee...only natural really.Watch the Spooky Kadina series on the uni...she rears often but monty doesn't react...just waits till she comes off the pressure. My TB would rear up if anyone tried to touch his mouth after a bad experience with a dentist. He was huge and was so scary for me coz he could lift me off the ground with him!! The dually was magic in helping him to learn that i was not going to hurt his mouth.
As for the wandering off after a session.... I still don't think it is a big issue :-) If he wants to mosey on down to his friends and you have finished with him...let him :-) My dad always tells me not to over complicate things..good advice! I wouldn't say Smokey is disrespecting you. He's just thinking 'Ahh were done, time for a bite to eat' Well that's my opinion anyway! Everyone is different and has different ideas. You know your horse best, we can't see him so we are just guessing! Trust your own instincts and believe in your own abilities! And most of all...have fun with your horses!
Have a great day!
Janelle :-)

Hi there Janelle - you're right, I have looked at the daully lessons and I can't see Monty looking into the horses eye when he schools. I thought someone on one of the threads said it but on re-reading she said 'eyes on eyes to send the horse away'. I think I've got confused and counted backing up as a form of 'sending away' and made the connection about looking in the eye. Phew, I'm glad I didn't look Smokey in the eyes now!

The other thing I just noticed when watching the dually training DVD is how he holds his hands - despite watching the video at least 4-5 times I missed how he holds them and I KNOW I haven't been holding the lead rein quite like that so maybe that has given Smokey some mixed message.

Now my head is spinning from all the video footage but I recently saw one where Monty looks to the side of the horse then his head to signal for the horse to move forward ... I will try and find it again and watch it again. I'm thinking I could try and use that as Smokey's first cue to walk on with me (after I've put the dually on) to see if that encourages him. Since he won't willingly walk on that is the training we need to work on for now before anything else happens.

Thanks for flagging all this up Janelle, it has helped to clarify what Monty does - I just need to keep watching the viedos over and over...

Have a lovely day and speak soon. Lizzie x

Hi Lizzie,
What you describe about inviting the horse to come with you is more then just a head-gesture. If you watch the video closely again, you'll see that Monty looks down at the ground next to the horse's left shoulder, then passes his own right shoulder across the horse's body-axes and invites the horse with him to come in the same direction he walks. This is a gesture foals learn from their mothers. Hope this helps.
Miriam

Ah, that sounds like it ... I will try it how you describe. Thanks so much Miriam, Lizzie

Like Nelliebell I was confused as to how Smokey was leaving you as I perceived it as a problem. Really sounds as if there is no issue if he just moves off by himself once you have released him. I don't think he should be required to hang around to be rubbed and petted once he is released. I do tend to look my horse in the eye when I ask her to back up and also when I send her off for join up - I think Monty does that too but I may be mistaken - others will help out here.

Thanks Maggie - I feel quite reassured about this now.

There seems to be differing opinion (above) on whether to look in the eye when schcoling. Because Smokey's adrenalin gets high I probably don't need to look him in the eye when I back him up - it could send him into orbit!!

Seriously though, my horse trainer is (fingers crossed) coming over this weekend and I will see what his has to say.

I can't wait for Smokey and me to have some more training. Will report back.

Just thought I'd add - Smokey is pretty similar to 'Spooky Kadina' - gulp! I noticed that even Monty had to keep his wits about him when dealing with her. Well, Smokey is not far off the same as she was. No wonder I need that trainer!

Hi all
.
This is a great conversation. I have learnt heaps be reading it over a few times.
.
You are doing a great job Lizzie :-)
.
Kind regards,
.
Gen

You certainly have your hands full with Smokey and it will be good to read your update after the trainer has come. My horse is very different - very quiet and very cheeky so she needs to be looked in the eye although she often doesn't even react to that anyway.

Thanks so much for your encouragement Gen.

Maggie I see what you mean about your horse being quiet so she needs more body language and eye contact to make a difference.

I am nursing a very sick cat at the moment so I have had to postpone the trainer coming until next week now but I'll be sure to report back how things go.

Best to all, Lizzie

Oh wow these posts are very useful! I have bought a 3 year old irish draught homebred so never been anywhere until now. She was lightly mouthed and lunged in the summer and turned away apparently but I'm starting from scratch. Anyway she arrived yesterday travelled really well in a trailer for the first time ever and I already knew she is a bit head strong...so hurry up Mr Postman with my dually... but made do with a head collar that I threaded the lead rope through the noseband and positioned it like a dually. She was alarmed but curious by marks on the floor, flower pots, etc etc so was very much stop start all the way to stable but very happy once in there. Then today the fun started! My main aim today was to bath her as recommended by my vet (mites) and I am on a very posh yard (amazing facilities with a round pen ) and it wouldn’t go down well. So before we got to that point she had some nice attention in the stable rubbing her neck and has a soft spot between her eyes (yipee) which has been a life saver and she had some breakfast. All was well! So I arranged to turn her out in a grass paddock for 20minutes and wow she was so happy and blew off some steam she even came to me when I called her and clipped her on as those warming up for dressage tests where not too pleased with her excitement but hey she is a baby and hasn’t had this experience before. So I did some stop start leading while things calmed down using my make shift dually and she responding brilliantly and in 5minutes pressure was minimal on the rope. I unclipped her and she had another 10minutes release and was much calmer watching the world go by and thought that would be a nice reward. (She has always been in a herd & never so much space on her own) So on our way to the wash facilities she was much softer and easier to handle-quick learner! I’m happy and gaining confidence for both of us.
Luckily I had help! It was a little scary but first introduced her to a dry sponge rubbing her all over no problems...then a wet sponge...no problems! If I went anywhere near her back legs it was a problem as she threatens to kick with leg in the air and lashes. So my helper rubs her between the eyes to distract her and we get over it. However, I was so careful not to stand in the line of fire/kick and she even responded well to pouring small amounts of soapy water down bottom for tail to be covered. She had already seen & heard the hose which to be far was quite loud but was ok with it on her front legs, chest, mouth, head (controlled warm water), back but she really kicked out on the legs but eventually settled down and occasionally picked her feet up off the ground however my helper used the halter to reinforce the standing still. She loves the drying room and enjoyed it very much that much she tried to pull me back in there once we removed her when she was dry. Sweet!
Anyway I showed her the very light cotton rug (it’s like a travel rug) and she smells it, nuzzles it and I rub it on her neck and shoulders and place it over her withers no problems.  The breeders haven’t rugged her before. So we are starting soft, light and slow! Then as I inch it towards her bottom she threatens to kick & takes a swing so my helper pulls on halter and then she allows me to position is properly (no way was I fixing the fillet string thou) and the next part was to bring the straps underneath her belly and she did it again and repeated with halter pull and release then she finally lets me fascine the final strap from underneath her (they are nice and loose). She got a big pat and a head rub. OM what hard work it was! I’m a little concerned about this kicking but she really thinks I am a horse and I am in her herd and she is a unsettled with being away from her brothers and sisters & new environment-I’m not making excuses for her I know its not acceptable. A few time when I have rubbed her withers she will nuzzle you with her lips and then the teeth come out she just doesn’t understand.
Anyway, I’m thinking join up is a must I need to show her I’m in charge and I want respect. So we are going in the round pen tomorrow.
Is it too soon as this is day 3 for her? I will have a helper/onlooker but only tomorrow then I am on my own.
I have done Join up many times with my previous horse and a few friends horses that have had problems-catching. I have just not had a horse this young and this feral!
Do you think I should get a successful Join up then use a rod/stick to touch her all over including her legs to get her used to being handled?
Then repeat these for the next few weeks & do dually halter work as well?
Its just time frame I’m uncertain of and I don’t want to over stimulate her too soon. I need to feel I have control and she doesn’t yet know how to walk in a straight line as she is so curious about what’s in front behind and around her but she has already improved a little when we worked together in the paddock.
Sorry about the essay! Thanks for reading!
Emma

Emma
It sounds to me that you have the skills and the knowledge, but not the confidence. Go for it and do the very best you can for her. If she doesn't do a join up in a reasonable time catch her up and ask her to do one thing like backing or following you and stopping. This is where you stop the training for the day. Your horse ended on a positive note as you did as well.
One of the training sessions with her should be to work on her legs and loin area. There are plenty of lessons on desensitizing your horse but with the feet you also need to train them to pick up their feet, stand still and only put the foot down when you place the foot on the ground. This my take longer that your join up, but as you said you are starting from scratch. You have a good breed of horse and I hope you have lots of fun working with her

Cheers

Yes yes yes I cant believe it the first go with Abigail in the Round Pen and I got Join UP! She did 5 laps in trot/canter on both reins & she was following me round like a puppy! WOW!

She even backed up & moved sideways when I moved and I rubbered her head and she lowered it to the ground so clipped the lead rope on made a fuss of her & turned her out in the field for hour an hour and walk to me and took her back to the stable. Her concentration span is very limited but I felt I needed to leave it on a high note and I have bought some garden canes today with intention to start touching her all over but thought that was enough. Wasnt expecting it to be that easy my last horse took a couple of days before I got a join up as he was badly treated before I got him. Its a great start! Thanks Dennis my confidence has really grown now! She has had new rugs fitted today as my old ones where to big and a bit heavy for her and even though I moved very slow with intervals of praise & rewards not once did those legs come off the ground. Cheers Emma :)

Hi Dennis
I Join Up with Abigail again tonight, did some Halter work then ran the rod all over her body as Monty does and no problems until I slowly inched it down her legs in gentle strokes then lashed out at the rod which I did manage to keep contact then when she stopped took it away and repeated, after couple of tries she got the idea and foot stayed on the floor. then did it again with opposite side and her hind leg didnt threaten once so got some results. Her hotspot for kicking out seems to be between the fetlock and coronet band at the back not the side or front and only does it with hindlegs. Is this common? Or is she just sensitive?
Thanks
Emma

Emma
Great observation. So if you run your hand or rod down the front or side she is ok wig that but from the back you get a strong kick. A couple of things come to mind. She may have been hit with a whip at the pasture fetlock area or she could have been injured in some way. It really doesn't matter because you now know what area to work on. The more you can desensitize the legs the easier it will be to train her to pickup her feet and let you handle them without fear or struggle

Once you archive picking up her feet and the farrier is able to safely work on her feet all the other training you do will be a piece of cake because you have taught her to trust you.
Keep us informed on how it goes. Don!t expect that you will be able to pickup her feet with one lesson. Stay safe and wear a helmet when training her

Cheers

Great to read your story here Emma and note your great progress. Well done! If you haven't already dones so you may care to check out Monty's video "Access all areas" Part 2 where he deals with a horse that kicks out like yours. Perhaps she has had her legs tied up in the past but this is one of the more sensitive areas.

Hey Lizzie - how are you going with your 3 rescue horses especially Smokey? Do hope you have continued to make progress.

Access all areas was very helpful in the sense that I need to remember to keep my own adrenaline down. And keep working on my dually to get her used to standing without having a tense hold of her, suppose I’m wary of her turning and kicking me. As she did try to get away by running tonight but I had the long line attached so she couldn’t go far so with the rod all over, down her back legs & repeated one last time she stood didn’t lift her feet then ended the session by allowing her to go loose in the school. It’s going to take awhile. I bought her from a vet who’s specialism is breeding. Abigail is home bred with his 17.2 Pure Irish draught Stallion which is very placid and a 15h thoroughbred mare. She has never foaled herself but would have been in foal by Spring if I hadn’t of bought her I suspect. She has never been beaten or miss treated in anyway. She is completely untouched I suppose she is like a Mustang that come in from the wild hehehe yet she didn’t get a choice in that! But that is what I wanted an untouched, undamaged, clean youngster but I do think this way his harder than a horse that has been badly treated. my previous horse had serious trust issues, starved, twitched, ears pined, legs bound. It took two month aprox to gain trust and be able to do normal things but it was little steps but often and Join Up helped build that relationship. However, Abigail just doesn’t know anything which is fine because I will teacher however long it takes. She is going to be a horse for life and not to be sold on.
The story continues!
Thanks

Given Abigail had little handling when she was young she is the untouched horse you wished to have. I think you are right in thinking she will be easier to train than a horse that has been abused beforehand. She will naturally be a bit fearful given she is so green but she should respond to your training and I am sure she will soon learn to trust you. Good luck with her. I look forward to reading the rest of the story!!