Hi Helene I know I have responded to you before on this problem. It troubles me that it is still happening and my gut feeling is that perhaps you are not using the dually effectively or consistently enough when he goes to nip you. My Tricka, like her mother, is not an easy horse and could be a dangerous horse too if allowed to be in charge. With her the dually has been essential. I usually catch her in a rope halter as that is easier but if she shows any aggression at all it is back to the dually immediately. I take both halters with me to catch her and slip the dually over the rope halter if she needs it. With the dually on I make sure she is in the sweet spot and I am holding the lead rope close to the discipline ring with a straight arm locked at the elbow but without any pressure on the dually discipline nose rope. In that position I ask her to walk with me. If she shows any resistence or even looks like she would like to bite me then she gets a correction on the dually - initially just a tug as a warning - if she doesn't heed the warning then it is immediately escalated to full on discipline - sharp hard tug and forcefull backing up with a quick release once she responds appropriately. It does work and after our initial discipline I can then lead her quietly and well behaved to wherever I am going. Join up has helped her too. If she shows any inclination to take a nip while I am picking out or trimming her hooves or saddling her then again she is immediately corrected with the dually. If she is tied up at the time by the tie up ring then I clip a shorter lead - usually my dog's lead rope - onto the discipline ring to grab quickly when needed so she has that immediate discipline and release. Same thing when rugging her. These days I can rug her in her paddock without the dually but if she is at all naughty then... Generally now she is very well behaved but can put her ears back if someone confronts her with eyes not downcast etc. I am currently helping a couple of young adults learn about horses. Our last session included handlling Tricka. On arrival the mother walked straight up to Tricka with eyes on her while she was tied up with the rope halter. Tricka flattened her ears and was ready to bite so the Mum jumped back. I immediately produced the dually for Tricka. The Mum then watched in amazement as her daughter then went up Monty's way and Tricka was perfect and behaved perfectly for her daughter the whole morning. Point is with these horses we must be consistent and discipline is often needed. If I don't use the dually on Tricka for a few weeks then she can revert so every so often I use the dually again. Like Shadow when it is feed time Tricka likes to be in charge of her food bowl. Even though Monty says leave them alone at feed time I don't do this immediately with Tricka as I hope someday she will be OK for my grand-daughter. I walk up a small hill to my top yards with the food and although my two horses meet me at the bottom gate Tricka then trots ahead of me into the top paddock and stands by her feed bowl until I put the feed in. In the past she used to try to chase me away as soon as she had her food. When she did this I immediately chased her away myself using the food bucket to swing at her until she returned in a docile manner. These days I just stand by the food bowl for awhile as she starts to eat and if she remains passive I then walk away. I think Shadow is like Tricka and these horses need to be constantly reminded that we are in charge not them. Once again good luck - just keep that discipline with the dually up!

Hi Maggie, Thanks again for your input. I know we are re-visiting this problem. I haven't used the dually in a while with him so perhaps did not nip it in the bud (no pun intended;)) Interesting to hear that you have to maintain it. Seems obvious now but since he had gotten so much better I had stopped using the dually. He does sound really similar to Tricka in a lot of ways. As with the eye contact in certain situations he takes it as a challenge. Shadow is always fine once he has his food you can rug him or stand near and he doesn't mind, although as Monty advises I usually leave him to it. I had also dreamed of making my horses safe for when my kids to ride when they grow up. I am going to work with him this afternoon and will revert to having the dually handy at all times. Will keep you posted. Thanks. P.S How old is Tricka now? Shadow is 4 and a half.

Hi Helene

I don't want to give you a lecture ;-), I thought I'd list a few thoughts that you can look at/ignore/question as you feel.

1. Interesting observation you made about the front clip - I know a horse whose skin had been accidentally pinched while doing up the front clip and to this day you have to just run your hand over there to let her know that its nt going to hurt again, but if you don't work with her, she will react, as long as she knows, she is fine. Also, rugs often slip back and they press on the chest and irritate.
2. Feeding: I suggest not feeding him in his presence for the next few weeks. Put his feed in the stable before you bring him in so that he doesn't associate it with you putting it there. This will have the additonal benefit of bringing your stress levels down when you are around him. I'll explain the next stage that I would progress to another time if you would like. Does he actually need feeding? Is he not keeping weight on/not enough grazing? What is he being fed?
3. Can he have a different rug? Does he really have to be rugged? Or can you take the clips off and put a tie fastening or velcro (be aware that some react badly to the sound of velcro though!)
4. Check all his tack - watch carefully exactly which bit makes him nippy; is it the girthing up, is the saddle etc.? Think about possible stomach ulcers (see my post on rachorses about this)- sometimes intermittent girthing reactions can be linked to ulcers.
5. Your instructor may have apoint: not all horse like to be fussed over, some need more personal space than others and have sensitive skin.
6. Watch your groom rug Shadow up, then ask the groom t watch you and give you feedback about whats different.

Whereas I agree with Maggie that the dually work needs to continue I would add a note of caution here. Be careful you don't get into a fight over things by misreading what Shadow is trying to tell you. The Dually is a wonderful piece of kit and I wouldnt be without it, but I want to know what is wrong with my relationship with the horse that he feels the need to communicate with me like this. I ask myself, What am I doing, whats my role in it?

Good luck Helene, keep us updated :-)

Dear Helene
Just another way of explaining the situation: The training effect is not linear. It does not mean that a problem is perfectly resolved after an initial success. You have to discipline the horse when he is biting, with a planned possibility to give him also a reward (the horse may become "angry" if you contineously correct him with "negative instant consequences"). I am sure you will get things right.
Rudi

Thanks for much food for thought. I have decided that putting the relationship first is the most important thing. I intend to try and make our sessions together as fun as possible so he can start seeing more value in our time together rather than just trying to learn dressage together as we have been doing. I played with him yesterday with walking over a tarpaulin and stepping up on a pedestal just trying to have fun and keep it interesting and it went well. Hopefully we will build on that. Will keep you posted. Many thanks!

Hi Helene, Rudi has bought up the most important point about repeatedly using "negative instant consequences", no one like to be told off all the time, you must be instant with "positive instant consequences" too & i find that is even more important with this type of horse, you need to really congratulate them for the slightest move to do the right thing.
My mare is a very strong, as in dominant, lead mare & is constantly testing my leadership properties, she too gets nippy at times & has always been a mouthy horse.
When i got her as a 3 1/2 year old, she didn't want me in her space at all to start with; i found that if i made much of all the positive things she does, she is much better behaved because if you keep telling her off, she sees it as picking a war with her. It is an ongoing thing as it's out personalities but she's the most loving mare - just thinks she knows best about everything, so has to be reminded that actually, i am the leader & would like her cooperation if it's not too much trouble please???
the last comment really isn't making light of the situation, but think about it, we all like to be asked not told to do things. If she chooses to be negative, she gets corrected, but not over the top, instantly corrected, then invited to do the right thing again & congratulated for doing so.
Be very quick in saying well done, thank you! Don't forget, that by stepping back from the horse once you've given him a rub & standing still to take off the pressure is a reward in itself. Walking away from him when he's done good is also a reward & will build trust.

The other thing about feeding: follow Monty's advice, feed the stable not the horse, meaning put the feed in the stable BEFORE putting the horse in there!
Believe me it works!!!
My mare got so bossy in the stable, she was horrible so i followed that advice, i quietly say whoa at the door & she stands still while i put the feed in & i come out, she's then allowed to go in; this has made such a huge difference to her manners in there, it's unbelievable!!

good luck, Beryl

Thanks Beryl.

I think this is largely a dominance issue, since having kids recently my sense of self preservation has sky rocketed and I easily loose my confidence. I have a friend coming to help today who has a lot of experience with young horses as I think it best for someone who is confident to work with him for the moment. I will work closely with her however, as I want to make sure no violence is used. It is tricky being in such a remote part of the world there are no qualified Monty or parrelli people. Everyone I have spoken to just says give him a huge smack when he bites you. I am going to get some thick arm covers and see if I can't train him to back up for a food reward after using only body language and voice command. I will keep you posted.

So my friend came yesterday who has much experience with young horses. She was confident and assertive and remarked about his grumpy greeting at the stable door, immediately backed him up, went in grabbed him and off to the round pen for assessment. After 5 minutes of play with Shadow it was obvious that he has just learn t to bully me. She remarked he actually has no issue with aggression, just pushing the boundaries. She was throwing the rug on and off in no time with no resistance from the horse. I then went and acted the same and had no trouble. Its never the horse, always the owner ha ha. So I just gotta learn to be more assertive and stop being anxious. I have started taking him our of the stable before putting the food in, so will see if that helps too. Just thought i'd update. Thanks

Excellent news, well done you, BUT, NO FOOD REWARDS!!! That will make him much worse as he'll bully you even more!!!
I stopped all treats by hand & her manners are now very nice indeed in the stable whereas before, she was so bossy & bolshy.
Rely only on a friendly rub on the head or a scratch on the withers if he likes that & telling him what a star he is, or standing still to take off the pressure, or walking away.

Very good re taking him out of the stable before putting his feed in, make sure you make him stop & stand at the door when putting him back in, so it's you that says he can go in, not him making the decision - you'll have a lovely mannered horse too very soon.

If he's worked for you& you want to give him some treats, by all means do, but give it to him in his feed bowl, not from your hand, but only when he's worked to earn it, not for no reason other than you'd like to spoil him - i know, we all love our babies, but we don't like the spoilt kid down the block do we????

you've made a great start, keep it up, stay consistent & keep us updated on your progress.

I'm so glad you have had a breakthrough Helene, and I agree with Beryl in this particular situation - leave the food rewards alone; mutual respect is the key here, not getting him to try to love you ;-) Using treats for training is a skill that is seriously underestimated, you have to have very very good timing and be very clear what you are rewarding, I promise it is not as easy as it seems. I use treats when I am training dogs but very rarely for horses. I am not against it as such, but it needs careful thinking about and often causes more trouble than it helps in inexperienced hands. I made one exception and that was a hand reared, 18'2 Shire who his owner described as an 'overgrown puppy' :-) but thats another subject for another day! Enjoy!

I have a young Paint who is very "lippy"... uses that lip to mess with my coat, pull at my hair and hat, lips at my hands. He doesn't actually NIP or BITE, but is always searching for something. I have recently stopped treating him AT ALL while training, using JUST positive energy and physical praising, and I know it will take time to break him of the habit of "picking my pockets" and investigating my hands. My now EX trainer used treats as a reward and now I"m left with the situation I'm in. He's a very willing boy, even when treats aren't forthcoming, but I think she's spoiled the child... EVERY attempt at a new task, is met with a search and seizure...lol!

They should never be allowed to look for treats like he does so it is wise to stop all treats. I find treats are very effective in training or for pacifying a horse when scared but they should not be allowed to look for them like yours does but stand with their heads away.

Little trick I use not only with our boys, but also with our cats when it comes to treats, works with dogs too.
The treat must be in an easily accessible bowl, different to feeding bowls say something like a sandwich storer. First introduce the horse treat in the bowl be walk up to them so they get a good sniff of what you've got, let them eat it and at the same time do a lyrical call 'treat' , the next time you want to give them a treat, hold the bowl up in the air and call 'treat' they'll then start to associate treats with the bowl and not your hands or clothing. Pye was a biter due to being hand fed, but is not any longer.
X

My horse used to bite aswell, she had no manners and she still is now the boss and head of all of the horses no matter what horse it is, shes a natural leader. she drew blood on me once from a bite. all i did was i didnt use the dually, even though i have one, i did joinup first, by doing joinup you basically suss out whos the leader so its the perfect exercise for biting, also when walking him when he bites just immediately react and tug on the lead rope forcing him to back up, then keep walking like nothing happened, even the slightest try of a nip do this, and he will learn whos boss, one of my old friends said to me once that if her horse bit her, she would bite back by pinching him on the neck, it seemed to work but i believe joinup and correction should work. and also do not under any circumstances let him get away with anything. if he wants to leave when you let him into the paddock, correct him and perhaps walk him in a circle and go back to where you were. also if he barges you for treats, what i do (sounds cruel, but it isnt and it works) is i poke them in the soft part of the side on the head under the cheek in the side, it doesnt hurt but it feels gross, like the feeling you get when you press hard under your ear. i started training my mare tricks and when she got it easily she just started doing it over and over and nudging me, pushing me over and trying to bite me, i just correct it my yanking on her head collar or poking her in that spot, it worked for me, good luck with your horse :)

Hi Lani

I was with you until the poking bit! I am not convinced it doesn't hurt and I don't recommend it as a method, I think your others methods are better :-) I agree with you that the pinching on the neck is also inappropriate.

well it depends on the horse really, my horse is very dominant and will take leadership even with the most dominant horse she always seems higher, she used to test me alot and can be a bad and hard handful sometimes even to ride but i have to firm with her, i recommend that if your horse is not strong and will let off you, i dont reckon you should do the poking , its only a soft push away in the soft spot and is only uncomfortable, i dont see how it can hurt, its like what a rope halter does, they strategically placed the knots at that place as thats where the facial nerves are, it doesnt hurt when you tug on a rope halter it is only uncomfortable and if you press that spot they will walk backwards. try it, press hard under your ear in the weak soft spot and thats what it feels like for the horse. I also agree vicci that the pinching isnt necessary and that it doesnt solve the problem it just creates more, also pinching a horse hurts for them, pressing on a soft spot doesnt but pinching their neck does and thats why i would never twitch a horse. Btw the foal is great to touch now and will let you rub her and scratch her all over out free without her mum, her mum is eventually trying to wean her off but she just loves the milk!!! and my buckskin mare the green horse is having physiotherapy this weekend hopefully, and on sunday she is tagging along to a training day but not competing just going to get used to it and if shes fine shes going to be taken to games training days as she is proving to be awesome at it!

Sounds like they are all progressing nicely Lani, its great to hear their progress :-)

So, after reading the last few posts, I believe I'm on the right track. I have stopped treating him all together while training/working. Once we are done working and he is returned to his stall for cool down ( just quiet grooming time, hands on / massage time; I throw a couple handfulls of cut carrots in the bucket, as well as a half a flake of hay. Nothing too much; we don't work to full on sweat to worry about colic, but more like a " small ice cream cone " at the end of a nice stroll. That way, he knows this is his reward, not just the carrots but the quality time as well. Seemed to work like a charm. We had our first FULL work out with his new saddle ( took to it like a champ! ) and when we were done, he stood quietly grazing and being loved by me for about a half an hour. When I went to leave his stall, he followed me - as if to say "Where you going? That felt good! " There were only a few times where he lipped my jacket, and it was ONLY when we were standing still, working on our ground tying. I know he does it out of boredom and with time, he will learn that standing is a reward in itself.

I think it is also a trust friendship thing as they do it to each other too but you are right to correct it. I do allow my QH to do it but he is a special case and he is very gentle. It seems more like a bounding thing with him. He used to pick up my Dad's hat off his head, carry it around in his mouth and then put it back my Dad's head. My Dad was demented at the time and he thought this was so great.

By the way well done with your great progress!