I should just mention that the lack of breaks, turning left and right is mainly out hacking as he gets excited. In the school he is real on edge as he associates it with being scared even after all this time.

Hi Widgymaphlip,
What you have on hand is a remedial horse, but you seem to have come quite some way with him! He's lucky to have found you!
To rebuild your relationship, I wouldn't ride him for a while.
I would suggest you buy a Duallyhalter, follow the instructions on the DVD that comes with it, so you can begin to build a new relationship with your horse from the ground.
The six imperatives are as important on the ground as they are in the saddle. It's just, that with the Dually you can handle your horse in a fair and safe way. When you feel safe, the horse will sense it, your adrenalin down will give him a chance to learn. Be aware of your own breathing, diaphragmatic breathing will keep your pulsrate low.
You write that your horse freaks out at everything, here's where you can continue finding all sorts of "scary" things and desensitize him. There are a lot of lessons on this Uni, that deal with Dually work for horses with phobia's.
Stay safe and have fun, but most important is that your horse has fun!
Miriam

I agree with Miriam, off his back and on the floor! Tons of groundwork, tons of longlining to learn to steer, operate brakes etc etc. Short sessions, end on a good note, doon't (as I have done and had to learn the hard way!) push your luck, if it's going well, stop, don't try an d introduce something new! Good luck, keep us posted, it will be interesting to hear his progress.

Thank you both so much for your responses! I am in the process of single lunge lining him ( will progress to double with practise) in the school when there is no one around, not asking much and it seems ( fingers crossed) to help and he seems more relaxed. His ground manners are actually pretty good and he is much more responsive on the ground than when I'm on top, but I will invest in the Dually for touch up and and training. As to his freaking out, it can be that on the road out there was one parked car but on the way back there was three and that is a problem. But he has been getting better and things that I would have to get off and lead him past now he will stop, but if I reassure him he will go past most things. But in the school it seems the more he goes past the same thing the more wound up he gets about it. I still have a lot of lessons to watch but is this common? Also is there a lesson on breathing techniques for me? I usually sing to him (poor sod) which helps both of us, but 8 weeks ago he really threw me off-nothing that had scared him, just a bad mood, broke my collar bone and left me in the woods. The only thing that kept me going really was that although I was crying my eyes out and calling him like a nutter, he actually called back and came back to find me. This accident is what really sparked off getting more help and apart from training I could do with re-building my trust in him again and I know I'm more nervous round him now. Probably a lot of issues going here but at least now I can start to fix them!

Have you got anyone to ride out with when you start taking him out again? You really shouldn't go out on your own with him. He actually sounds like he's never done this kind of work before.
Horses don't normally do things for no reason, you say nothing frightened him, but something must have, it's just that you didn't notice what it was; it could have been a tiny movement he saw out of the corner of his eye, or a noise that you didn't hear, anything.
Ah, that was sweet that he came back to find you, so you are building a bond of trust, Bless him. He really does sound like a very scared horse.
Can you try to find a Monty Roberts instructor, or associate locally?

He sounds worse than he is, although it did seem this time it was a temper tantrum, but maybe something I hadn't seen did set him off.. But he has really looked after me in other situations and before this I trusted him a lot when we were out- he even alerted me to man in some bushes we were headed to minutes before we got near. What I've never understood with him is that if something changes, like the cars, that's scary, but if it's a new situation he seems more ok with it. For instance I lead him up to someone front steps to their house as their dog had escaped- he had never been up steps or up to someone's front door before and didn't bat an eyelid at it! I don't get it.
Although we don't have the opportunity for company most of the time, when we do ride out with others he is more confident but he gets a lot more excited and wants to race most of the time. Catch 22. I know there is a lot of ground work to be done but this is what I mean about having no idea where to start when I eventually do bet back on.
I will get a Monty Roberts instructor over to help us as you say but I'm so grateful for the advice on here- I never thought we would get further with his issues and to know that maybe now I can means so much. Underneath all the issues, he is so gentle and forgiving and he deserves so much more to make up for his past.

With the others here, Wendy. Well done with your progress so far but I would definitely recommend getting a dually halter and doing more ground work with your horse prior to riding him out on long rides in the bush. Maybe just the occasional short ride in an area where he is more relaxed with a companion if possible as this will help to build up your confidence too providing you stay safe. Singing and/or chatting to a friend as you ride is good as it helps you relax and breath but don't push either yourself or him and if you don't feel ready stay on the ground. These horses take so much time and patience to overcome their phobias and some never get completely over them. Help him to learn the 6 imperitives from the ground with the Dually before you ride him out again. Teach him to stand still with the dually with the lead rope dropped in front of him. Lunge him with the dually on a loose lunge line and when you feel ready try the long lines but don't feel pressured to do so until you are both ready. It took me awhile to handle the long lines and I still feel awkward using them and find them so much harder to manage than single line lunging. I don't think single line lunging has the damaging effects Monty outlines if the line is slack as you are not bending your horses head the wrong way - it is more like free lunging but you do have more control. My phobiatic Quarter Horse is content to have the lunge lines all over him as I have desensitised him to them but he panics as soon as I try the long lines so I always single line lunge him. Although I have had him since he was 3 years old I haven't been able to protect him from maniacs who have terrified him at different stages in his life. Firstly by his previous owner who belted him around as he wouldn't load when he was sending him to me, then secondly by two guys who roped him and ear twitched him after chasing him into a corner as the couldn't catch him to take a broken summer rug off him in my absence. He had been started austensibly by a Monty type trainer and he couldn't handle someone walking straight up to him. As soon as you turned your back to him he would come up on his own accord but of course these rough country goons had never heard of Monty. Thirdly by young guys who rode their motor bikes in the paddock where I had him agistment. Because he was spooked by them they apparently found it fun to chase him around the fairly rough paddock on their bikes until one day they chased him over a barb wire fence on the slope of the hill which he attempted to jump but got caught on the top barb wire which split his gut open. Poor darling jumped back over the fence to his quieter companion. I was was totally mystified to how this had happened until a neighbour told me about it a few years later. I used to wonder why he was all lathered up on some days when I went to check them and feed them while my other horse was fine. It took twelve months for him to recover from that and he has stayed in my paddocks ever since. Eight years ago now but while I was riding him yesterday at our club grounds two young guys were hooning on motor bikes and he started shaking all over so they never completely get over these horrific experiences. He trusts me totally and is extremely joined up but the damage is still there which makes me so sad. Oops long again!

Hi Widgymaphlip, Ms. Miriam is exactly right. Her advice is perfect. Read what others have posted here http://www.montyrobertsuniversity.com/forum/post/napping-not-moving-forward-bucking-and-etc . Get a Dully Halter straight away. I would also suggest getting a pair of Long Lines. I used them on my second week of training with my big horse Alex. He is an off the track race horse so he had only one gear... Fast!!! He had no breaks or steering. I just feed the long lines through the stirrups of the saddle and hooked them on the schooling rings. Then started off with walking, then turning, then stopping and backing up. I did this all before joining the University. The Dully Halter and long lines are invaluable. Joining the University has made all the difference in the world. A second suggestion that I have made on other posts is not to be afraid to skip around and find the lessons that pertain to your specific issues, like: LONG LINING 101
; SPOOKY KADINA CHRONICLES; CREATING TRUST IN RESCUED WILD HORSES and SPECIAL EVENT. I would add the lesson CATCHING YOUR HORSE IN THE PASTURE to help reinforce your communication skills with your horse. Remember we must learn Equus, the language of the horse. I barely even go into Alex's stall anymore. I open the stall gate. Walk towards him just through the gate when he is not looking at me. When he turns his head I walk right on out. After once or twice he will just come to me. Then as he gets mostly through the gate, I offer the halter to him and he slips right into it. We have a true partnership with him being willing and ready to have FUN! I would even watch some of the unauthorized YouTube videos of events with Mr. Roberts in Germany and England. Your horse is in his prime and despite his past treatment that he will never forget, you two can overcome this in just a few weeks of GROUND WORK. Ground work only needs to be an hour or so each day if possible. Before you saddle him up, you may also wish to just point at him to walk and trot as if it were a Join-Up. This will get the built up, stall energy out of him. He may even snort and buck at you and/or lay down and roll. This is not bad behavior. Its just him just get his anxiety out. This will burning up the excess adrenaline he has due to him guarding his space within his stall. This is also done with NO lunge line. He is free to move in any direction. I bet you only get him around the round pen once before he turns and joins back up with you. Then follows you around like a big puppy dog. So... the two of you become partners, trust established for that day, he see that you are speaking his language and he will want to go to work for you. Please pardon the long winded post.

I like the long winded posts! Thank you! It amazes me how cruel some people can be towards horses, or any animal for that matter and then how, with the right person they can come so far! It's encouraging to hear other's stories so thank you for sharing. I agree Maggie that he may never be 100% recovered after everything (he too was beaten round the head with a plank of wood to get him to load but that is a challenge for another time) but we are getting there as a team and can now hopefully progress so much more.
At the moment I've been single line lunging in the school before anyone is around and apart from when we spotted donkeys(terrifying beasties) he has been brilliant and really relaxed. I've not asked much of him, just walk n trot n kept my eyes on his shoulder so there is no pressure from me (is this ok to do by the way.)
I will be getting the Dually this eve so can really start to get going and thanks GregG for the tips of which lessons will help! There is so much to learn I'm so excited!
Thanks again for everyone's advice-I'm not around that many horsey people and the ones I am are a bit old school and heavy handed and I've always been laughed at trying a different approach. It's such a relief to finally speak to like minded people!

Trust me, NOT being around "horsey people" can often be a big advantage!!! Even those who profess to be "into" natural horsemanship" or whatever they say need to be judged by how they behave and what they do rather than what they say = there is often a mismatch. Stay true to yourself and your horse, it sounds like you're making great progress.

I agree with Ms. Vicci. Not being around “horsey people” can be a good thing. It seems here in the Los Angeles area, everyone is an expert on horse riding and horse training. At the old boarding ranch where I was first at. People would be giving advice on how to properly treat, train and ride a horse, before I even got to the stall. It was maddening.

totally agree with vicci, do what you FEEL is right, if it is, it'll work, if it isn't it won't & you'll need to try something different, most of all, it's about building trust.
There are EXPERTS all over the place, doesn't mean they are!!

This is very true! Everyone thinks they are an expert and want you to do it their way! Not to say I include anyone here in that category! I know we all come from the same place! I think this is one of the bigger reasons my bot is the way he is- so many people have picked him up and dropped him throughout his life he's not only going to find it difficult to trust and let some one in, he is also so bloody confused by their signals, especially ridden ones! When I first acquired him- he is kinda a loan job but complicated, I won't go into it now, after I got him to be able to accept a rider and not turn himself so much inside out, a girl who went to the same yard would ride him before I got there and ride him badly. After which I would get him in and ride him and wonder why he would do something different to what I asked. I had no idea this was happening until a few months later and told her on no uncertain terms never to touch him again. Putting it politely. I may not be the best rider but at least I'm consistent!
Yesterday I lunged him in the sand school with a couple of trotting poles and asked a little more of him, he was a bit distracted to begin with but then did really well and we had a good cuddle after- happy days! :)

Sounds like. You are making great progress, Widgymaphlip.

I don't want to jinx anything....I probably now have but he is doing great at the moment! Lunged in the school yesterday and today and apart from wanting to check out people leaving the opposite yard and a dog barking, he kept going and seems really relaxed! I know there will be more work on the ground for a while but I am so excited to get on again! Also got him to back up and come towards me on the lunge with just voice aids and body language and without the Dually ( shipment takes ages) so happy bean again today and he seemed happy to get loads of praise too!
Just an aside, when I'm lunging, or if I want to free school him, where do I look? At the moment I'm just looking at his shoulder as I don't want to join up is is correct?

Miss a day and miss loads :-) good thread, been enjoying it.

A couple of things I do for remedial horses I train for turning on the ground I get them listening to my head first, so if I am turning to the left I exaggerate a left head turn just before I want a turn and use command "turn" it only takes them a couple of goes to realise that as soon as my head turns to the left or right that they are going to have to turn.
When free lunging I look to the hocks, this is where a lead mare would nip at to get one of it's herd to move forwards. If they're moving, then I take my gaze to their feet and start to mimic their moves this can make it more fun and a bit of exercise for us running around with them.
sounds like you're doing fantastic despite the broken collar bone, Remember it's all about the horse and what's best for them. remember to smile, a smiling person can't be hurting them and horses recognise facial expressions.
for practice breathing lay on the floor and put a book on your diaphragm, then try to breath pushing the book upwards. It'll feel a bit like you're pushing your belly out. don't do it for too long else you'll get an oxygen rush and go a bit dizzy. once you feel you're breathing correctly practice standing up then try with your horse. You'll find he'll become more relaxed in your presence just with you breathing correctly. Will help the singing too! ;-)
Mel
X

Should read though what I out before posting..
With the turns, make sure if he's on your right side to make him walk around you when you turn to the left, he'll need a little bit of encouragement to understand. Don't let him in your space, so keep your hand near his cheek pressure point to keep control of your space. and if turning to the right do not go into his space, use the cheek pressure point to guide him gently away from you for the turn. so for the right turn, look right over his withers, ask for turn, keep your head looking over the withers and gently touch the cheek pressure point turning his head to the right. this will later translate in the saddle that as soon as you turn your head left or right he will know a turn is coming before you give any other aid.
X

Mel you are a genius! I tried what you said about where to look when free- schooling, and it was really something. He shot forward when looked at his hocks and really responded to me looking at his feet and mimicking his movements! (I need to get fitter) we both had a great time, and I put a small pole half up and he just kept taking himself over it! Haha was so lovely to see him enjoying himself.

Just a lil update- got on for the first time in nearly four months after my accident last night!! Woohoo! I wanted to do a lot more ground work with the Dually but as it went missing in the post and I can't afford another one and the groundwork we have been doing has been going well I thought I'd start getting us both used to the idea again. I wanted to do it in the sand school but the lorry came back and there was tarpaulin everywhere and as I hadn't got him used to it I thought I'd stick to the field! Lunged for a few mins before with his tack on then got on- think being out all day in the sun and having a belly full of grass helped him act like a donkey but he was very good. Only walked round for a few mins( didn't want to push my luck) but it was so good to back in the saddle. Weird thing was he seemed more unsure of it than I did as he kept stopping so baby steps for both if us now. Really lovely afterwards as he was all snugly and loving! Plan to get on maybe once or twice a week and do small stuff but keep doing lots of ground work- really feel we've got so much closer since doing it- so underestimated yet so important! Yay!!!

can you not claim the missing dually cost? I don't know which country you are in but in UK its quite straightforward, form from post office, say its lost, they investigate it, agree with you, give you the money :-) Glad the ground work is going well

Well done! What a break through for you both!

It was fed ex that lost it- sent to wrong add but after many emails and phone calls - even being sent through to canada ( I'm in the uk btw) they won't claim responsibility!!! It's gone on for nearly 2 months now and I know I shouldn't give up but I don't know what else to do! Going to need it soon but quite honestly cannot afford it right now and have a lot of family issues going on which are taking over. Sucks big time. So training is going slow but hopefully in the right direction!

Perhaps you could pick up one from e-bay? Given the age of your horse it maybe not as essential to have one as it is for a younger horse. But then if he is misbehaving the dually is the best solution and training becomes so much easier and faster than with other halters. I know it is expensive and annoying but I would try to buy another one. If not directly from Monty's shop then someone here may know of a store in UK that stocks them.

' Misbehaving' seems definitely the wrong word here. 'Spooky and scared of people and things' would be better.

kelly marks intelligant horsemansip, montys student sells dually halters from her place in england.its the most valuble piece of eqipment u will ever own.remedial horses especially need them. sorry yours got lost but i shud try and scrape money together for another one u will see the difference emeidatly. good luck sounds like u doing a great job. jerry.

fortunately i got hold of one of the team and they are sorting out sending me another one! cannot wait! I know he does misbehave occasionally but it is his history of people re-enforcing his fear which is the problem. he's doing so much better and even took himself over a trotting pole next to not only the lorry but two covered big bales of hay!!! woohoo! also they beat the crap out of him loading so after getting him used to going past and over 'scary' things we will go onto that little issue. Dually is most definitely needed! lol

Widgymaphlip I don't know how I missed your reply in May, I'm really please that the free schooling worked for you. It is afterall their language.
This is a photo of Pye and me a few weeks ago, not often I get photos of my with the boys. You can see we're both bending in the same direction, he has one ear locked on me and one on my daughter with the camera, but we're still mimicking each other.
:D
https://www.flickr.com/photos/melaniehetfield/14383906290
Everyone should be able to see this photo it's public. x