http://sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newscategoryid=11&newsstoryid=9617&utm_source=console&utm_medium=news&utm_campaign=cws
The above link goes to an article that has been mentioned in several horse magazines. "Researchers used a remote control car to mimic the actions of a trainer using the Join-Up method, undermining the idea of a human-horse connection."
Comments?
Rudi
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Scientifical critics of Join-Up
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Rudi,
thank you for reminding me of this article. I've read it only a few months ago, and my thoughts to it did not change a bit.
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Henshall says: "We trained some horses to actually walk up to and touch the car." Monty's method of Join-Up is not about training the horse to be with the human rather than away from them, it is about freedom of choice and communication. The little car used for the "experiment" is like Monty desensitizing a horse with plastic on a stick: The horse learns to "train" the stick to go away by standing still. This has got nothing to do with Join-Up, I would say.
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Of course, Join-Up is built up on the factor that horses are afraid of being isolated of the herd, but it is nothing like "psychologic terror" or however one would call it. It is what horses naturally do in a herd, if there are problems. This method is nothing made up by Monty Roberts, but it was made from nature. And Mother Nature has a reason for everything happening in our world.
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So, all in all, I can only laugh about these people who do not even know what they are talking about.
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What is your personal opinion, Rudi? Would be interesting!
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Best wishes from Hamburg, Germany
Jasmin
My personal opinion goes in a similar direction. I do not see a principal difference between a whip (used without causing pain), a plasic bag, a little flag, a remote control car and a rope. All instruments are used to stimulate the horse to go forward. It is obvious that a curious horse will like to examine the little car, or the plasic bag or whatever has been used afterwards. About cruelty: I am convinced that you can use all of the mentioned instruments in a cruel way, even with Monty's method (less likely).
To come to an end: This scientifical test covers only a part of the much more complex relation between a human and a horse. I am not sure why it has been done. Just to defame Monty's method? The result was to forsee easily with a bit of experience of working with horses.
Rudi
I agree - it seems a rather odd experiment to do and actually not very scientific at all.
Hi Rudi
I think that if Ms Henshall is really concerned about cruelty to horses she is looking in the wrong place. There are still people out there using traditional methods to "break" horses and others using instruments of torture to get horses to do what they want. If she was serious about studying stress on horses she should be studying these methods and their efects on the horse - I am sure she would have more interesting and legitimate results. I do believe she has targeted Monty because he is a high profile trainer in an attempt to justify and further her thesis and studies and gain more notoriety. Cheers Jan
Hi All
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When you think about it, this study actually proves Monty's theories. The cars are used to chase the horse and then they retreat. The principles of join-up - advance and retreat. The Indians apparently used to do the same thing to capture horses. They would chase the heard for the flight distance and then turn around and retreat. Doing this for a while caused the horses to follow the Indians into places where they could be captured.
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Interesting stuff.
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Kind regards,
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Gen
Yes Gen you are correct these tests do prove Monty's theories on Join-Up totally. Ms Henshall's complaint is that Monty's methods are cruel and stressful to the horse, but this is a natural stress that is performed within the herd regularly, so to me her studies and findings are pointless. I still believe the time and money that has gone into this could have been put to much better use. Cheers Jan
It seems to me that there are critics out there who tend to condemn join up without even trying it or understanding it. If it is done calmly and correctly it should not be cruel or stressful to the horse. My Tricka is cheeky, more so somedays than others and I need to be continually asking her to respect me. Join up has been such a benefit to both of us. If she is in a piggy mood and puts her ears back at me in the paddock she is immediately sent off. Because she knows join up she will circle me a few times and then come in passively. When she is particularly noxious it is off to my menage area for a proper join up session and after this she will respect me for weeks. If a traditional breaker or re-trainer had Tricka they would try to break her spirit as the re-trainer did to her mother, Pie, and like her mother she would be broken down before she gave in. How can join up be cruel and stressful when you consider the alternative methods available? Critics like Ms Henshall need to have a better understanding and knowledge of join up and the philosophy behind it.
I have just read this article, thanks for sharing it Rudi. While as "Monty fans" it is tempting to dismiss it I am curious to know the full story as it is quite an interesting idea, however HOW the study was done is of vital importance(as always you only get the bare bones of the research and biased towards what they intented to find out). So, I would want to know (1) How mny horses were used in the study? (2) Did the horses give the same signals to the car (ear locked on, head dropping, circle smaller etc.) (3) How long did they 'chase' the horse? (4) Some horse approached the car, did any follow it, was this tested? (5) I assume the horse has a heart rate monitor on; how did the results compare with those of horses doing "Join Up". (6) How does it compare with doing the same exercise in a square/rectangular school (is the round pen a false variable?) ......and many other unanswered questions. The article mentions the principles of pressure/release and that is valid but nothing new in terms of Montys work. If anyone manages to get hold of a full copy of the research pelase let me know, I would love to read it!
Good questions viccihh1 - it would be great to have the answers!
Hihttp://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2012/07/sydney-university-questions-monty-roberts-technique-as-pony-joins-up-with-remote-control-car/comment-page-1/#comment-48226
Vicci, above is a link to the Horse Magazine which has footage of the trials conducted by Ms Henshall. I am sure you could get a copy of her research from Sydney University. Monty didn't name her but did make mention of her research at his show in Tamworth.
Cheers
Jan
Many thanks Jan, will have a look!
Ok, the article is the same as the other one and the video is too short for me to make any judgement; so, as you suggest Jan, I will contact the University and see if I can get a copy.
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/animals/science-takes-on-the-man-who-listens-to-horses-20120713-2219x.html
Another video...
Rudi
Thanks Rudi for posting this one but it didn't seem to work for me. The smh site just had a message saying that currently they had no info on this topic. Maybe they have taken it off?
Go to the DASHBOARD. Then find the heading what is new? Then read: 04-Apr-2012
BREAKING NEWS! Access the Summary of the Science Trial Results
This is a scietific study comparing Monty' method with tradisional methods. The study says it all.
When I first saw this in July, I wrote this on the the Phys.org page:
"From the details provided, this sounds like a totally unethical piece of research. If this is science, then the Faculty which permitted this research is seriously in need of an inspection."
I find this research unethical and appalling. It is difficult to understand exactly what they were hoping to achieve. What aspects of the "Monty Roberts horse training method" was this about: the raising and lowering of energy levels; the change in eye contact or posture; the way a subtle move of a limb speeds the horse up, slows it down or causes it to lower his head? All I can see here is an pointless exercise in toy-car-flooding and habituation.
Maybe it's the medium of this article, but the message of the research brings the whole Faculty of Veterinary Science at Sydney University into serious question.
Just watched Rudi's video and I am even more appalled when I listen to what this so called 'scientist' is saying. She shows no previous knowledge of Monty's training methods and no understanding of horse behaviour. She uses emotive expressions such as 'fear' and 'chasing', none of which are evident in Join–Up. She doesn't understand what the car and horse interaction shows. If this is how she conducted her experiment, she has not controlled for the human intervention in the process which for those of us who do know something about horse behaviour, is very evident in this clip.
I cannot believe that this is someone who might be considered an expert in horse behaviour. God help the equestrian world if we are to rely on people like this.