This is rather surprising as Anky is a fan of Monty's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8FKen-5vpk . Do you have a link to the video you watched?

yep, no idea how she marries the two!!!
I watched a video yesterday about Totilas, unfortunately, it's in Dutch, but if you watch the pictures, you can see the change in him when he was torn away from Eduard Gall, they had a wonderful partnership as shown in his performance & was a very happy horse.
I wish it had been in English, but it looks like when he went to Anky, they used rolkur on HIM!!!!!!! UNBELIEVABLE. If i have that wrong i apologise.

Back to rolkur - it is appallingly abusive - if the horses head is forced into that totally unnatural position, the CANNOT use their back properly, ie, relax over the top of their back & use the abdominal muscles to lift from underneath which is the correct way, nor can they use their hind legs effectively.It results in a horse with tense muscles, unable to see where he's going & stretching the nuchal ligament in the neck causing pain. Don't use force in your training "Nothing forced is Beautiful!

Collection comes from the hind end "through" the whole body so that it appears that the front end is lightened, they don't actually take more weight on the back legs, but they do sit more on them & the resulting energy is then able to be used to go forward in a free manner.

As someone said to me the other day, the horses back should come "up" so its a bit like an umbrella shape!! So the horse can use the hind end and create energy which will in turn lighten the forehand, not to bring the head in as the back end won't be free to come under and it will just follow!! My big man will hyperflex in canter of his own volition as an evasion, so he gets a quick "boot" up into the bridle!

I'm a bit surprised that you are surprised, vicci. It's widely known Anky van Grunsven, together with her trainer Sjef Janssen has developed this method of training, and it has been a lot of commotion around it all the way up in the FEI.
The FEI decided a couple of yeras ago (and I quote an article from 2010) "Following years of research and a conclusion by the International Equestrian Federation (FEI), the Dutch Equestrian Federation (KNHS) has decided in February that, “as of today hyperflexion/rollkur is seen as an aggressive way of a deep moving horse. This is forbidden as well as any head-neck position which is obtained in an aggressive way. The LDR-method, on the other hand, obtains a deep bending of the neck without force and this is allowed.” Anky advocated this method up to around that ruling was made and claims to have distanced herself since then. I'm guessing she does use the allowed LRD (Low Round Deep) method instead.
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My personal point of view is that everything is bad or good according to the hands that wield the "instrument", and I grant Janssen and Grunsven being the top of the tops in riding and training horses, and are possibly better equipped to tell if what they are doing is good or bad for the horses, compared to "ordinary" riders trying this method.
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That said I do NOT approve of either method, regardles of who uses it.
It's a bit like the (mis-)use of gag bits. In the hands of a proffessional it *may* have a positive effect when used for a short span of time in the correct situation, BUT only as a last resort and never in the hands of amateurs/children.

And therein lies a problem, we all see top riders using this or that gadget/bit with no idea why that particular item is being used by a professional, then we go off find said item and use it inappropriately!! I work on the KISS system (Keep It Simple Stupid), so with mine its sweet iron snaffles and no martingales unless absolutely necessary. Although saying that big man has a crank noseband on his bridle but I do it up loosely.

Hi. I recently stepped in & raised concerns. The situation was this, a 3 year old thoroughbred filly being ridden by a teenager in a training device, elasticated, that clipped on the bit, the other end attached to the girth. Now a Market Harborough is an old fashioned bit of kit that brings the horses head in & down. This other thing did the same job. The difference is the MH goes through the bit rings & clips to rings along the reins, so adjustable. BUT should the horse need relief, with the MH the rider simply lets out the reins & the head is free. Young horse, young rider & no obvious way to avoid pressure completely. To me that's an eruption waiting to happen. Cheers, Jo.

I am so pleased to hear that you use your crank noseband wisely Tiggy, so many people use as an abuse by doing it up as tight as they can, the same geos for grackles, Mexican & drop & flash nose bands, they may be "snug" but NOT over tight, you should always be able to get a finger in between the strap & the nose & move it easily.
Doing them up too tight clamps the mouth shut so they cannot swallow easily, add an over thick bit & there's no room in the mouth at all for the tongue, let a lone being able to move it to swallow!
Plus, if the horse has a low roofed mouth & you put a single jointed bit in there, the joint will push up into the roof of the mouth causing a lot of pain, clamp it shut cos the horse is trying to get away from the pain & you turn it into excruciating pain!!!

I made a huge mistake in Libby's training that i am now having to try to put right: she is croup high, she's 15hh at the withers & 15.1hh on her bum.
I used an Equiami, similar to a Pessoa lunge aid & put it low down her sides like using the stirrups for long reining, the outcome is that she bounced on her bum BUT she can't then move her front legs which barely move & it stopped her using her beautiful huge shoulders & lost that big forward movement - I'm gutted that i've done this to her!!!
It showed how bad it was when out on a ride, i kept hold of her front end in canter & her big strong back end overpowered her front end & i had to use both hands on her neck to stay on!
Horrible, now i realise what i've done wrong & need to kick her out in front of my leg to get the front end moving again.
LRD may work nicely for uphill horses, but a downhill, croup high horse is very different - any advise from instructors would be gratefully received????

Thankyou all for your comments, they are very helpful. I also think that anything forced cannot be beneficial in the long term :)
Here is the link to the video I had watched: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svOBsSdjUvU
Thanks again,
Abi

Yeah both mine have a lozenge in the middle so double jointed, nosebands I was always taught to have the ability to get 2 fingers between the leather & the horses head, Winter is in a drop noseband which is a tad too big for her even on the last hole, so she still has plenty of room.

I've watched the video thank you afr the link. Overall I am disappointed with it.
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Kicki - I have clearly been naive and just assumed that if she like Monty she wouldn't do this - lesson learnt! ;-) I agree with all you say.
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While I agree that Anky is talking about high level Grand Prix athletes we know that not everyone takes the time it takes to develop such flexibility. Also, her statement "we all know you can't make a horse do what it doesn't want to do" is rubbish - sadly horses are made to do things all the time; often a time bomb waiting to go off.
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One final thought - what is the point? I don't even see it as a particularly attractive frame. A comfortable, collected horse with a "chandelier head" and in no discomfort is a beautiful thing but this hyperflexion (I love the way they try to change the name to make it sound less awful - it's like calling torture "necessary force"!!)is not pretty to look at and clearly puts the horse at a disadvantage in many ways
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Beryl - don't be too hard on yourself, we all make mistakes and you are brave to share it. I am not an experienced rider so cannot quite grasp the mechanics of what is happening. Ohers I'm sure will give you better advice but I wonder if, in the meantime, going back to simple long-lining for a bit will help to rebalance things?

This video will show you exactly why rolkur is so bad for the horse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhljcsuudd4

Yes, sorry Tiggy, I meant 2 fingers.

vicci, I'm not being hard on myself, I am sharing a fact that I'd not encountered before as my old boy was a compact short backed horse with a normal build apart from his jaw was quite large & he was on the forehand, but with training he became much better in self carriage, he was also nice & responsive to the leg.
Libby on the other hand is very long in the back despite being 5/8 Arab & is truly a horse, whereas Rocky was Welsh D x TB & his pony traits gave him 5 legs to get out of trouble, sadly Libby doesn't have that ability!!!

Libby is also pretty idle, she only gives what you work hard for & if I long rein or lunge & get her going forward, she becomes a silly Arab snorting & leaping & generally being stupid, all to get out of actually doing any work!
Yes, it's very easy to put her right down onto her forehand cos she's lower at the front than the back, this i've learnt the hard way, so i now have to try to ride her back up & if i do long rein or lunge, it will have to be with the side reins etc up the top as close to the hand position as possible to not let her get too low, but if anyone else has any experience of this, it may help me.
She is easier to work from on top as i can use my legs to get her more forward.
God, if anyone tried to use rolkur on her she'd be doing a hand stand!!!!
You can't use tightish side reins on her cos she wont tolerate it.

vicci, I hope you didn't think I was chiding you or anything. Actually, I am thinking that your theory about her liking Monty Roberts maybe goes to show that she really does believe her method is beneficiary to horses?
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Beryl, I have an overbuilt, long-in-the-back mare as well, so I know some of the problems you are facing.
I've given this a bit of thought, and I want you to bear in mind that since I have never seen any footage of your mare in action (or even standing stock still for that matter), this has to be a bit of a general answer.
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The key to any kind of shape is the engagement of the hind legs. A horse can be low in front but still carry itself as long as it doesn't get front heavy and let the whithers sink down between the shoulders (which aren't connected to the rib cage by bone, only muscles).
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Consequently, the rider needs to come up with exercises where the hind legs get engaged, stepping deeper underneath the horse and carries more and more weight so the front end gets lighter and the shoulders get more freedom of movement.
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This is mainly done by lots of forward riding by seat/legs with the propulsion forward being met softly by the hand so the horse doesn't just "ambles along" at high speed. Shape, at this point, is less important. It will happen soon as the horse has built enough strength and found its balance to rest on each step. Upraising aids with the hands can be done but be sure never to stay in a high position - better to make quick releases so the horse learns to balance itself rather than chancing on getting caried around by hanging on the bit.
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The easiest exercises for this is LOTS of transistions, half halts and schools like shoulder-in.
Also pole work, climbing and lots of long stretches of trot outdoors may help.
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Basically, there are no quick fixes, esp. when the horse has its anatomy against it. These horses have to go twice as high to reach the same collection as a horse built "uphill".
Mind the hind knees as they tend to take a beating when you ask for more! (More so if she is straight in the angles.) Stretch and massage!
But that said, the take home message is that it can be done with the proper training program, and enough time. :)
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I hope this is of some help to you.

Hi Kicki - of course I didn't feel chided :-) I have huge respect for your thoughts and opinions Kicki and as always, the information you have given is useful and educational.

Yes thanks Kicki, here's a photo of Libby
http://www.bforrestsaddlery.co.uk/photos_5.html?frm_data1=22&frm_data1_type=large

you can see how strong her bum is compared to her shoulders.
Yes, those are the sort of exercises i'm doing with her so I am on the right track, lots of transitions are needed to get her loosened up & going forward.
I hope this serves as a warning to others to be very careful about using gadgets for lunging, schooling etc as it's doing that ,that has caused this problem.
She is actually capable of doing the most wonderful extended trot when out on rides, boy does she love a good trot, she truly uses her whole body with the quarters really powering forward & then she is able to lift those huge shoulders & stretch her neck into the most beautiful self carriage, you have to feel it believe it!!!
WE don't do too bad for a disabled horse & disabled rider!!
She is still one sided BUT, when i started her, we had so many problems with her curved back & muscle spasms, i didn't think she would be able to be ridden, so thats why i'm annoyed with myself for letting her get down on the forehand.
The other problem we have to contend with is laminitis, although she is fine at the moment, she can find the hard ground very challenging, so then i can't do much with her. If only i had a school to ride in!!!

Yes, she is a bit straight in her hocks, so i don't constantly ask for too much collection. We have a lot of hard flint tracks here so so does amble over those as she's barefoot, so needs to pick her way, but i ask her to move on with better ground.
She has lost muscle on her shoulders as last year i had a knee operation so i couldn't ride much & this year, she got laminitis for the first time in 4 years, so this has all knocked us back a lot.

Thanks for your advice Kicki.