Hi everyone.
I had posted a message on the join up part of this forum several months ago because my horse didn't have the best respect towards me and because he tended to be wilddddd while doing join up (he was raised with the Pirelli method, I was told).
The horse I ride is called Nuage ("cloud" in French) and is 12. He is a Selle Français. I ride him a lot these past few months and our relationship evolved into something really nice while riding. I'm doing some dressage competition and we are going to compete at an upper level next year. We made a lot of progress. Nuage trusts me more and I trust my own judgment and sensations more as a result. We are really making a team now, which was not really the case for a long time.
So, while riding Nuage, I really have a great confidence in him. He never made me fall, he never jumps off out of fear, he's almost fearless while ridden, it's amazing. I go ride in the woods and he enjoys it and trusts me. Once we heard a BIG gunshot, he made a jump but then he didn't go away, I reassured him and all went ok.
At first while riding Nuage, I was thinking of my bad past experiences with a rearing horse and I couldn't even adjust my reins while walking. Then I had less problem with trot and canter but simply walking was difficult. Then all of this went better and we are in a good spot right now ! :-)
So here are my two problems:
-First, a couple months ago, I put Nuage free in the closed arena. I wasn't going to ride him so I wanted him to move a little bit but when you make him "go away" he goes CRAZY so I took another approach. I was stupid not to take anything in my hands, no lead, no stick, nothing. Nuage and I are already joined up and already have been, so it seems to me. That's maybe why he never wants to "get away" and gets crazy when I require it. So i started walking next to him and he followed me. I made circles and stuff and he would be with me. The feeling is great each time he does that! :-) However sometimes when i lead him with a halter, he gets cheeky and tries to bit the lead. This time there was no lead.
I remembered that I wanted him to trot a little, so I started to trot next to him. And... he went absolutely crazy. He started to gallop, and then came right back at me, reared in front of me, trying to bite me. I could see his horseshoe right next to my face. I tried to push him back but I had nothing and he wouldn't stop. He only stopped when I stood perfectly still in front of him. He was facing me. At some point, I began to feel really scared, I tried to push him once more and ran towards a rear door in the arena. I don't know how I made it but I did ! I was very shocked but I didn't wait at all. I went to the front door of the arena, took a lead, opened the door, he came right at me, walking. I took him with the lead and did as if nothing had happened. Now I'm scared to stay with him in the arena so I leave him alone in the arena and never play with him freed in the arena.
What do you think of this behaviour? Some people told me it could be disrespect, some told me it was a game, and some people even asked me if I was "in the wrong week of the month" (since I'm a woman) and suggested it was a very stallion like behaviour. Nuage has been castrated a long time ago but it's true that he's quite a dominant horse.
- My second problem is funnier. I never prepare Nuage in his stall because he's aggressive around his "food" place and I don't want to take stupid risks or create conflicts so I lead him to the "preparing zone" and then we go to the arena. Some days, Nuage follows me very well but some other days, he stops at his horse friends door, and then before turning towards the preparing zone, and it can take 10 to 30 seconds to make him move... annoying. Then, when prepared, I take him to the arena and he stops at his stall's door, at the bucket with the food (I don't let him eat of course) and at the stables entry door and then in front of the alley to go the arena and once more at the entry of the arena... It's like he just wants to be cheeky and stop there. I never hit him of course but I'm getting a bit tired of this and don't want to fight with him like this..
I worked a couple times with the dually halter on Nuage in the arena, but like I said, I'm scared of him when I'm by foot and he tries to bite my lead when I work by foot with him. But he never does it when I lead him to the lawn, with lead "left long"...
Do you have ideas about my two problems??
Thanks a lot!
Pauline (And Nuage) From France
Here are two pictures of Nuage and I for illustration purpose :)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151528810132309&l=e06ffb70d4
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151528810152309&l=f8add9da0d
And one ridden: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151477860262309&l=241bfef554
A beautiful horse. I work sometimes with horses for showjumping of professional riders. They often have a lot of energy. In the roundpen they start running around me for a couple of minutes. So I think the important step is to send away the horse, "far away", as Monty says. For the horse must be clear that he has to go away and not play with you. You must be "armed" with a lunge or even with a stick with plastic bags to be absolutely clear. When he is calm you can start the training with the halter.
Rudi
Problem is... I'm scared to attempt it now.. :/
I must strongly disagree with Rudi here - the key phrase is "he has been Parelli trained in the past". So a few pointers: 1. Do not do ANYTHING that frightens you Pauline, it is ok to be scared and there is no shame in it, lets take a deep breath and start again :-) 2.. Why are you trying to join up with him? You said he works brilliantly for you under saddle, it is his leading that is a problem so concentrate on the leading using a Dually halter. 2
3. He has probably, as part of his prior Parelli training, being circled TO DEATH and is fed up with it, also, Parelli circling teaches horses to turn INWARDS, Join Up teaches horses to turn OUTWARDS so your horse will ba angry and confused on many levels. (Have a look under the Parelli thread, I have written a long explanation of the differences in round pens between Monty and Parelli horses)4. You've learnt the hard way, NEVER go into an environment with a loose horse without a rope with you or the means to escape if necessary! ;-)5. The stuff about you being on your menstrual cycle? Absolute nonsene, god almight people do talk some rubbish in the horse world don't they? - if all else fails, blame the womans periods!!!! 5. Nuage is not a "dominant" horse, he is a bit confused and is looking to you for clear leadership and consistency. Hope that helps Pauline. Good luck :-)
http://www.montyrobertsuniversity.com/forum/post/2114230374
Pauline, I found the information I gave before about Parelli -(link above) and I had a funny feeling that I knew who I had given it to, I check it out and guess what, It was you!!
Pauline: I owe you an apology, I read your post and wrote my response while I was in a hurry (something I should never do!) and I didn't pay enough attention. First, you have rightly already acknowledged that you have JoinUp so my first comment is in error, but do work with the Dually halter it will make an enormous difference. Second, part of Parelli training is the liberty work and forever being "turned loose and sent away" which is why he is reacting. Your second point about the stopping everywhere. There is a great way to deal with this that I was taught on one of Kelly Marks' courses. Using a Dually and a long line when leading the horse: when the horse stops DO NOT STOP WALKING - otherwise he is teaching you to stop whenever he wants - keep walking a few steps letting out a bit of line so you are still with him and then encourage him forward with the Dually and then coil up your line to the correct length again. Also, pay close attention to his stopping actions and 'interrupt' him. Where his ear goes his nose follows, and where hi nose points the rest of him will follow so when his nose starts to tutn towards where he wants to go, a little reminder with the Dually will keep him walking forwards. Hope that helps. And apologies to everyone else too for so many posts. Lesson learnt - I will not post in a hurry in future.
Hi Pauline, I just wanted to offer some words of encouragement. I think your very brave - and I'm not sure if I could have stood my ground like you did. I have very little experience to offer except that, like stated above - use the dually halter and keep walking. You are in charge, and if Nuage stops walking when you haven't, the dually halter will do what it is designed to do, by applying pressure and encourage him to walk on. Best of luck. Bryan
Pauline, if you feel scared maybe you need somebody helping you.
Rudi
Hi everyone !
Thanks a lot for all those words of encouragement and support ! This helps a lot.
It also helps to know that I "don't have to go back in there" and be scared to death.
It's strange how little authority I can have by foot and how everything is fine when I ride.
I understand that Nuage is confused about my behaviour because I'm not sure what to do or how to react. What I'm sure of is not hitting him!!
Since I have the dually halter I will lead him with that instead of my usual halter.
Nuage also stops on our way to the arena. Can I put the dually halter above his bridle ?
Thanks again for the great advice ! I feel more confident and less scared already.
Yes over the bridle is fine
Great ! I'll try it tonight ! :)
Hi again !
Tonight I tried the dually halter and it worked very well.
I led Nuage to the "preparation zone". He stopped once but when the dually became smaller he resisted only two seconds then let go and understood that it was more comfortable following me.
I also put it above the bridle to go to the arena. He stopped once again but quickly decided that it was best to follow me. Then he didn't even move when I tried to get on him, which he usually does.
It was all non violent and easy ! I'm going to continue.
When I was preparing him, his was attached from both sides of his halter. I tried to do some little things. First, I don't let him turn his head towards me because he tends to pretend to bite or does bite but very slightly; just to say he's in command. So what I've been doing is putting his head back where it should be anytime he turns it towards me when I prepare him. I accompany this with my voice, something like: "where is you place, Nuage? Go to your place". And he usually does :)
I also don't want him to move forward when I prepare him. But I want him to back up when I require it. This I do not obtain all the time. I put myself next to his shoulder but not too near from his mouth (because he tends to make the movement of biting when I ask him to back up), and I make a sound with my tongue and he moves backward. When he doesn't listen I just gently grab the halter under his chin (to be safe from his bites, just in case) and put my hand just in front of his shoulders still without touching him. This usually works.
The real challenge for me is what follows: When I'm preparing him, he tends to put his body towards me, especially his back legs... which is dangerous. So today I tried to make him move in the opposite direction without touching him or being too close from his back legs because it can get dangerous. He "resisted" once, came towards me. In that case, I speak with a strong voice, it seems as if he replicates ! Aggressive looking eye and ears, moving his back legs in bad temper. When he really won't move, I'm careful and I gently touch his belly or shoulder and immediately stops when he moves. I know this is not perfect technic but I'm trying to be less scared and more confident in this specific situation. I love Nuage and I want to fully understand him and set up a framework in which he feels confident and comfortable, which is I think an environment with limits and respect.
Please share you advice or thoughts!
Quick detail: these past few days, I feel that i can give Nuage a lot more kisses than before. He was always making angry movements with his head and ears when I would try to give him a tiny tiny kiss on his shoulder or neck. Now I kiss him on the head and he seems to like it. At least, he's not trying to bite me or less.
Tonight we also did a little session of ridden work and then 10 minutes of eating grass and enjoying sunset. He was very nice to ride tonight, relaxed and nice! :)
See you all, it's past midnight in Paris.
What's new is
My new gelding likes to "play" like that. Do you think that perhaps that is all he was doing? Now, before you all start to go off on an "are you insane, what's wrong with you?" tangent and "you have no idea what you are talking about". My new gelding (dutch warm-blood) does just that when he is feeling frisky and playful, rearing and running at me, but stopping at the last minute, or running right by me and kicking up his heels. He calms down quickly however and then we get down to business. Its all good.
It doesn't sound at all to me that he was "attacking" you. I have been seriously attacked and knocked down and tromped and believe you me, there is one hell of a difference between the two and I truly believe that if your horse was "atacking" you, then you might not be telling us about it now? Or, at the very least, you would have a few very serious bumps, bruises and perhaps some broken bones and teeth marks?
I could be wrong, but it is certainly something to think about and consider, before being harder on the guy.
It is so important to be "fearless". You cannot pretend to be fearless, you have to be fearless, this emotion cannot be hidden from them. To be anxious or afraid is to make them anxious or afraid.
Just think of them as big powerful simple minded kids that are usually just as scared of you and what you are doing as you are of them. Keep this in mind, you will find it very helpful indeed. I know, it is very much easier said then done and does require quite a bit of experience sometimes, depending on the individual.
Bonne chance.
Pauline, my boy has done much of the same when I've handled him in the stable. It's much better now, but it was a phase I'm very happy to be out of. (I hope!!!) I understand very well how you feel! I've been quite scared of my boy as well, but I've been lucky to have people around me who weren't and I'm pretty sure that helped us both a lot.
.
A firm stance from me got me exactly the same thing as you did; an even more aggressive response.
This is how I've handled it, but I'm not sure it is the perfect solution.
.
I changed my tactics to avoid looking him in the eye and did a lot of "approach - retreat". I avoided doing things that I knew I couldn't handle since that would only make me more scared and him more haughty. Instead I worked more on the things I could handle to build my confidence and give him as many positive impressions of me and the situation as possible. Right side was more difficult and took longer to be OK with.
.
Tried to keep calm and not raise my voice no matter what - although that was very hard. Take deep breaths deep in your stomach to slow your pulse a bit. Move slowly but with determination.
For a time I also held on to his tail whenever I was within reach of his legs. That way I could pull the tail when he went to swing his hind leg. Not hard - just enough to make it uncomfortable for him - and with perfect timing. And lots of praise when he put it down or stayed still.
I attached an extra rope to the halter on the opposite side from where I worked, so I could keep his head away from me if necessary.
At one point I was desperate enough to put one of those grass-reducers on him. That worked wonders actually, He was busy figuring it out and I could relax knowing he couldn't bite me = didn't jump away from his every move.
(He was on his merry way of teaching me to move when he looked at me, just like a leader horse would move him. Not good! I really needed to break that behavior in us both!)
.
I also had my hoof pick in hand at all times so when he tried to crowd me, I simply poked it into his side. No way it can harm him, but it is unyielding and uncomfortable so he learned very quickly to walk away from that pressure. Best was if I could anticipate the move and quickly bend his neck toward me and thereby make him move his shoulder away. Yes, risking a bite, but that is better than being squashed against the wall.
.
Whenever he misbehaved I made him move backwards and forward as far as the lines allowed - on the principle that whoever controls the legs is the one in control. Once I got very consistent with this NIC he sobered up a whole lot.
.
Do a lot of ground work in the Dually! That really helps. I didn't do enough! And if you start with that and then go to the grooming place it will also make for improvement. Never mind if he's a bit dirty! Safety is a lot more important.
.
I'm not afraid of my boy anymore and my calm confidence is making him relax and that makes me even calmer, so we have a good circle now. :)
But, yes, it was quite bad for a while and I do hope you will get past your fear too.
To pmoleau: hi there, thanks for your advice. I don't think I mentioned I had been 'attacked'. If I had been attacked, as you say I wouldn't be here joyfully talking about it but rather in a hospital!
Fear is really not something you can control. I do know I have to be fearless , I just have trouble figuring out what to do to make that change! :-)
To Kicki: hi ! Thanks for all your indications! It does help! I've started to apply it but withing the preparing zone so I can feel safer. However I feel mor confortable in his stable too now! And he already felt more sure of what was allowed or not. I tool the hoof pick and used it a few times when he wouldn't move. It's easier to move him on his right side than on the left one.
He did try to put his body towards me but I reacted each time and then praised him a lot. Maybe I'm imagining it but he was more reactive when I rode him immediately afterwards!
My big problem now is myself: I'm able to be composed and praise him when he does good but i raise my voice when he does bad.. :( it's very hard to keep my voice as calm as my body. I guess I Should try to be firm, but without yelling.. I'm gonna work on that!
Good for you, Pauline! :) I'm so glad it was of help to you.
Voice control is really hard, isn't it! Esp. when nerves play in. The tension itself makes your voice change.
.
One more thing; I learned to stand still when he moved away from me after an attempt to crowd me. If I was "coming after" him when he had no more room to get out of my way he would stay aggressive. But if I just defended my personal space and let him know it was OK "over there" he would relax quicker.
.
Fingers crossed you're on your way out of the problems now!!!
Thanks for the additional piece of advice and for all ! I'll keep you posted on our progresses !
Hi everyone ! Little update on our progress with Nuage.
First, I must say the dually does wonders ! Nuage follows me and almost never stops when I lead him.
It's very gentle on him and he never reacts violently when the dually becomes uncomfortable. He stops, thinks and then follows me. It's great.
I'm much less scared too when I'm preparing him (out of his stables still..) and he respects me more and "moves out" when I ask him to move from me.
As a result, I'm a bit less scared when I'm in his stable but there still is some progress to make !
About his biting, I read a few days ago Monty's answer to somebody about a biting horse. He recommanded to GENTLY kick the horse on his front leg, just to distract him at the very same moment the horse makes the gesture of biting.
So I did that, and Nuage didn't expect that from me at all, so he panicked for a few seconds and started to piaff (in a very disorderly fashion I mean).
THen everything went back to normal but I was so scared I didn't dare do it again... my scaring sucks !!
Give me your thoughts on that! :-)
See you !
I can imagine you didn't expect that reaction either and did a bit of "piaffing" too.
I'm sorry I can't help you much with the biting. I've been wishing for something that works myself.
When I tried the gentle tap of his foot or shin, "Mr. Smartypants" quickly decided this was a new game and tried to either bite my leg/foot or step on it.
.
In my case I have tried to figure out the *why* he wanted to bite as he has had some problems with sore muscles, itchy spots, or simply didn't appreciate me doing whatever I was about to do. Then I have tried to work from there to get him to accept my touch on that spot.
I've also "cheated" and tied a hay net for him to eat from. That kept him too busy to bother with me, and every grooming session we shared without a fight was a step forward to a better relation.
.
So far it is my experience (with this particular horse I should add) that as long as I held my ground and stayed calm, his interest in biting me is reduced. The grass reducer was of great help too (the few times I tried it), because I knew he couldn't clamp his teeth on my arm no matter what, so I was perfectly calm and he didn't even bother.
.
Looking forward very much to other peoples' thoughts!!!