Hi Mel,
Good to see you here with a question!
Your stories of Pye have always been very informative, so I almost have the feeling I know him... He has had a very hard start in life!
In your describtion above the only thing i miss is the Dually Halter. You might have a reason for not using it, but that didn't come clear in your story.
So if the Dually is an option, why not school him from the saddle on another horse (like the Centaur-series here on the Uni!). This could be a constellation he hasn't lived through with his former, abusive owner. Since you seem to have time, before the next dentist visit is due, work slow but steady.
I'm really looking forward to what others suggest, please stay safe and let us know how you're doing!
Keep the good work going!
Miriam

Hi Miriam

Because he was going to have a gag on, the dually was not an option. However, if I had thought about it, I could have used the dually for the vet to sedate him then switch. Wish it was legal for the layman to inject in this country else I would have done it :D 

Of the 9 horses and ponies we have they are either too small for me to ride or the one that is big enough gets ataxia so is not safe to ride.  Need a fit riding horse lol.

I have worked at Liberty with the herd for so long, that the dually or head collars are rarely needed, we mainly use it when taking the horses out on the roads but they are never needed to correct. Some Dually work over the next few months would be a good idea though maybe include some more strange stimulus, maybe get a photo of the vet ;/ 

Your words are getting me thinking, a constellation he hasn't lived through!   

Thank you Miriam, 

Mel
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 Hello Mel and Miriam;  I have been thinking about your dilemma with Pye, Mel, for the last couple of days.  My wife asked the question why you are having a dentist out to your farm every 6 months for the horses?  We haven`t had to do the dentistry treatment near that often.  However our horses are checked frequently.

As far as handling Pye for future visits, the one thought that I had was to get another person that was horse knowledgeable and scrub-down with betadine for the scent  of a veterinarian, while they present Pye with a tool [any tool] as if they are ready to go to work on his mouth.  You could be standing at Pye`s side with a lead-line attached to a dually halter in order to school if needed.  If his reaction is one of violence toward either of you two, then introduce another item to him that raises the fear aspect of his behavior if and only if, the schooling with the halter doesn`t calm his jets.  The other item would be significant with his behavior because horses can ONLY demonstrate their fear for ONE item at a time.  If the other item that you chose would take president over the simulated dental tools, that might give you a way into getting his mouth worked on.  He could be desensitized and then sensitized to allowing the vet to do his job with the teeth as a result.  Anyway, just some thoughts that I had rattling around in my head.  Please be careful.

Bud

Hi Mel,
Good questions... sounds like the desensitisation work you've done to dentist tools is good, but now the issue is approach of vet.
Often times approach of strangers (vets, dentists etc) and having anything done (rugs on and off) can be made worse if it's in the stable as it's such a confined space he feels trapped and has no option but to fight. Plus if his past abuse occurred in the stable it will make the behaviour even worse. Whilst on the Dually have you tried approaches with vets/farriers/dentists/strangers outside of the stable? Also as vets and dentists always approach on the left, have you asked them to approach from the right? One of our rescues, when having injections has it done from his right side (more awkward for the vet but better than getting kicked) also as you have the time before the next visit, you could train him to injections, first start with your finger or knuckle and press into injection site, with the aid of the Dually get him to slightly bend his neck/and look towards you before rewarding with the release of pressure, (bending the neck away from injection makes it hurt more) once he gets the slight bend and look in with finger/knuckle pressure you can progress to something more injection like, like the feel of the end of a cocktail stick. If he relaxes into it, it goes away.. 

Thank you Chris, and great to see you in the forum :) 

The herd are completely free all of the time, rarely having to put them in a stable at all unless it is because they have a different feed to the others. We are in a 6 acre field that has a track around the main grazing areas, they are on the track most of the time then grass  grazing a few hours a day. In the field we have a make shift shelter that still needs a roof and a makeshift exercise area which is also the carrel for protection from the weather. 9 horses and ponies in all. All have had some issues either behaviour or health they have had to overcome. My daughter and I operate as a sanctuary for the horses and people :) we are just setting up as a charity.  We are a forever home for the horses.

Now you mention it the vets do always go to the left hand side, it had not occurred to me so I can go about changing that when they come next. 

I like the flexing idea and that makes sense, I will start that in his training. Need to get some cocktail sticks :) 

 I started his dually work again today and as soon as the dually was on he knew he had to work and was fantastic. After some reminder exercises we then went for a walk around the track with the dually on and the herd following behind and his behaviour was exemplary, even when a small heirachy issues happened behind us and I spun round to deal with it he was right by my side and he reinforced my equus communication with the herd.  Was one of those moments you want on camera and you don't get it lol.

The horses are used to strangers, we operate as therapy for people free of charge as we cannot run as a business off of the land we rent, we teach people how to approach horses with respect and safely, and teach the equus language . Each horse being unique we help people come to understand the differences of different behaviour and personalities. 

Chris are you @whisperingequus on Twitter? 

Appreciate the thought! 

Mel 
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Hi Bud

I like the line of thinking, which had made me think more too, what if I smelt like the vets. It is a smell they only encounter when the vet is present so creating the same smell to desensitise would be of value. 

I could carry a couple of buckets with water and hoof rasps in to imitate the dentist tools. 

Appreciate all the input guys, thank you  for being there :) 

Mel xx 

Yes Mel that's me..
www.whisperingequus.co.uk
@whisperingequus on twitter 
https://www.facebook.com/WhisperingEquus/

Hi all. I think we are back to 'having intent'. This horse has been roughly treated in the past but now allows Mel to do all manner of things, on her own. When other people turn up for an appointment, the vet, the dentist etc, they are working to a schedule & intend to carry out whatever procedure they have been booked for - that's their job. Now some people are more relaxed than others. There are 2 vets who come to my ponies, from the same practice. Both are very good vets but we, the ponies & I, have a favourite who knows my guys are playful but is prepared to play along. The other is too keen to sedate first. The same with the farrier. Three of my four can be trimmed by almost any competent farrier but Holy Moley won't give her feet to anyone with intent. Perhaps, Mel, you need alternative people rather than concentrating on Pye being the problem. Does Pye have issues being vaccinated? My vet does teeth so would the situation be less of a problem & cheaper too, if just the vet came - possibly too many people at once sets Pye off with bad memories? Could it be that because Pye has a 'past' your focus is to 'fix' Pye rather than accommodate his preference for some people over others? I know how hard you work for the benefit of your guys so no disrespect intended here. Just the thought that, rather than going more complicated & expensive, trying something simpler might work. Good luck. Cheers, Jo.

Hi Mel and all;  Jo is right - on with her thoughts regarding paid people when they come to our farms to work on or around the horses. They usually have a time-agenda.   When I go out on a farrier appointment, the owners are surprised at the response that I get from their horses.  Why?  Because I never have back to back appointments set up.  I allow myself to be on HORSE TIME.  Whatever it takes to complete the task will be offered.  The horses know this after the second or third visit, and immediately relax when I begin my trimming routine.  I talk to them on a continuous basis  I believe that that helps them release any stored up tension.

When searching for answers, we humans cannot begin to take into account the many different aspects of thoughts that coarse through a horse`s mind when they see a stranger standing in front of them in an enclosed environment.  I know you are aware of this Mel, but is the vet?

Keep on searching for a way IN with Pye.  You have stood the test of time with him and have become a person that he trusts.  In my eyes, that`s HUGE.  My thought would be  to introduce him to new people that simulate coming into his environment to work on him.  If he raises his adrenalin , you can step in to settle him down.  I would do this on a routine basis, so he gets sensitized to YOU being able to successfully calm his jets whenever he might get bothered with a new human coming into HIS space.

Good luck my friend

Bud 

Hi Jo & Bud

Yes Jo I can see where you are coming from and I can agree with you, I think from my part because he did use to attack people I have to think of those who come onto the field if they make a wrong move he reacts and insurance claims ;/    With what you say about intent, that is what he picks up of whoever is around him so ie for injections, which the vet hasn't got close enough to do even for routine jabs, they know they are going to do something so react to prevent it. Maybe it is time for him to do as you both suggest but in controlled circumstances meet more people and start to expand his education to start trusting others and not just me. He is doing amazing on the dually as if it has been a daily tool. 

I have also started working him with our next dominant horse Seaton, they had some massive fights when Seaton first came to the field and Seaton has ended up second in the hierarchy with the geldings. They keep their respectful distance of each other, but Pye has started to show his interest in grooming Seaton, so I have been working them on each side of me to get them working together, Pye on the dually and Seaton on a normal head collar, Seatons face is too sensitive to touch to handle the weight of the dually. If the rain doesn't come this week the plan is to start them together at liberty in the carrel, both will have to listen to me, which will aid starting to teach Pye to  listen more when new people are around him.

As for the vets being aware of their intention and showing that to the horse, I am sure they do, they are good vets I even did work experience with them and saw how they are with other horses, never met a horse like Pye on work experience though. :D 

When Pye had the vet do his teeth last year, he started rearing and striking out at the vet attitude of the vet was you are not going to win I am the dominant species. That wouldn't have helped, it was the same vet that came to sedate this time. We like the dentist as she takes her time and is with us all day for 9 horses, no pressure and she gives each horse what they need, I think because Pye had a bad experience with the vet doing his teeth last time that has made him react this time.   

Thank you for the input guys, it is appreciated. Sometimes the mind just gets stuck where you are and speaking it though it good :D 

Much love to all 
Mel 
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Update :D

Pye has caught on that training is happening, I went to trim his feet yesterday, as soon as he saw the dually in hand the bottom came around with a very big 'no' attitude. When he does this it is dangerous to send him away, (if I was a horse I would charge and bite his back side and say how dare you, but I'll miss that one ;D ) so we did a join up a process where I am on the outside and I have to join up with him, this is one of the methods I used to get close to Pye in the beginning. Using all the signs of join up I ask to join with him and when he says I can then I do. The dually was the problem in his mind and although he would touch it the slightest move to say I want to put this on you he would say no. There was no urgency to do trim his feet, so the last bit was putting the dually on the ground near him and asking him in Equus (nodding to the ground) to come with me and he did.  I am going to try with just a normal head collar today and see how he responds, I'm sure he see the difference between dually and a head collar. I will use the same colour as the dually.

The question I have to ask myself is why is he alright with the head collar, but is now refusing the dually. Is it because his choice to go away is restricted and he feels trapped, which is a big fear for him even with all the training done.
Thoughts always welcome :D 

Mel 
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Hi Mel;  I read your post a couple of times before it dawned on me that Pye was probably reading your intention to trim his feet.  If that was so, I would check out the dually the next time with him just to see for myself IF he really has a problem with the dually.  There could be a possible bad association for him at the moment with the dually.  When I come to this questionable time with my horses, I try and do something with one of my other horses to get the attention of the one that I had originally intended to focus on..  Therefore, I am relying on the couriosity of the horse and his relationship with me to refocus his efforts on me [create a draw].  I believe that this situation helps the horse to create a new wave of thought and they can walk away from the original mind set.

Just some thoughts my friend.

Bud

Hi Bud

He knew it was feet time, which used to be an issue for him with farriers thumping him when he would not stand still for them, he is a good one to work out the character of a person, another reason why I taught myself to self-trim so he would not be subjected to too many people who hurry as they have other things to do.   The farrier kit was on the floor near the van. 

What I did do after I told him I would leave him alone was go and do Sonny's feet and he hovered around watching like he normally does.  

I will do as you suggest and do the dually without any work involved to make sure it is not connected.   

Thank you Bud! 

Mel
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Hi guys. 

Feet accomplished, it was intention he was reacting too with good reason, sadly he has a touch of laminitis and had a bleed at the toe, it wasn't until I started using the knife to exfoliate the sole that I saw it.  I had to put a head collar on before putting him out to graze, then caught him later. 

They all have restricted grazing already as the field we moved to last year is more clover, ribwort plantain, wild barley and other high sugar weed  and the wrong grasses, we started changing the structure of the land this spring, but without spraying  it is going to take a long time to reduce the unwanted sugars.   Last year the focus was the ragwort which took 192 hours ish to dig up. This year overseeded with low sugar grasses and decreasing the other stuff.   Long job and wish I had my own land.   Have reduced the grazing time on there to 2-3 hours a day rather than 4-5, then they are on the bald track with hay. 

He's happier now he has had his feet done. 

Mel 
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Quick update, 2 hours pasture a day has made the changes Pye needs for his feet, rest of the time he is on the track with hay.   Much happier to be caught. 
Mel
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