Hi Everyone, i have a very strange question re my TB gelding, Toby. Today I sold two ponies that i had here for a few weeks (turned out the 'gelding' was a stallion & the mare was pregnant so found a more suitable home for them'). I put Toby away in his stable while they were collected and then let him out into the paddock (the paddock he spent a lot of time in with the ponies). He immediatley scanned the whole area & took off into a very fast gallop covering all ground he could. It seemed to me like he was looking for the ponies, he ran up & down the paddock for about twenty minutes getting faster & faster and neighing at the top of his lungs. I stood & watched to make sure he was safe and when he eventually stoped, i walked over to give him a pat & help calm him down and he turned his back on me and appeared to be frightend of me - which he has NEVER done before. We have always had a really strong relationship and i can sit in the paddock for hours with him and he wont leave my side. I decided to go & get his halter and rope so i could check him out properly and spend time with him - I was walking up to him (about twenty meters away from him) when he lifted his head, put his ears back & stared at me. I kept walking saying hello & he then started striking the ground with one foot whilst staring at me and then he jumped forward again into a gallop right at me; i put my arms out and said 'woah' a few times (he's ran at me before but i've always trusted him to stop before he gets to me)... this time was different, it appeared he was running AT me, aggresively & for the first time ever I was scared of my own horse!! He got about half a meter from me still running so i decided to move out of the way... I truly believe if i hadn't moved Toby would have knocked me down!! He stopped as soon as he had passed me and i then got out of there as quickly & safely as possible. What i'm wondering is do you think Toby had a psychotic episode? Has anyone ever experienced something like this in a horse? Just to be clear - Toby is naturally a very calm, quiet, friendly horse to be around and has no vices whatsoever so obviously this is all very worrying for me!! I'm wondering whether Toby was angry at me for selling his friends the ponies and wanted to let me know... any advice would be much appreicated!! Thank you :)
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Hi Libby,
no, I have never heard about something like that before. Some questions:
1. Did Toby have problems with separation anxieties while the ponies were there (for example when he was lead out of the paddock for a ride without them)?
2. Did you ever do Join-Up with him? Otherwise I would do it, to reveal that you are the alpha mare in your herd of two.
3. How old is Toby? Did you already check him for his physical health? There are several reports about Dachshunds that were the nicest animals on earth. But as soon as they got 11 or 12 years old, they got very aggressive against their owners and strangers too. It turned out that they had a braintumor. Even if this sounds terrible, I could imagine horses getting problems like this too. If you did not check him until now, please do so!
4. If all tests are negative and he will still not calm down, even after Join-Up, please contact Monty and his team. Either over the Ask Monty part in the weekly newsletter or personally.
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Let us know about what happens and what you find out about this strange behaviour! It could be very helpfully for others too. Sorry that I could not really help.
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Best wishes from Hamburg, Germany
Jasmin
I've found that separation anxiety can cause a normally very calm horse to become panicky and irrational. My gelding is buddy sour with our old gelding and he's fine unless he's left alone in the corral, then he runs around in a panic whinnying and acting like he's going to try and jump the fence. I've never been inside the corral with him during these times because quite frankly it's dangerous to do so. I leave him alone to work it out for himself, I would suggest you do the same. Eventually he'll figure out he's not going to die without the other horses and he'll calm down, but it may take a few days. In the mean time stay out of his way he's upset and he won't be consoled. It's actually not a bad thing for our horses to learn that they can be alone and they'll be ok, but it is a learning process for them. I hope this helps.
Libby
Horse is put in his stall and when he comes out again his pasture mates are missing. Of course he is going to be upset. Did you think that putting him in his stall was going to make him think that everything was the same when he was back in his pasture? Now you had a real problem trying to regain the horses trust. Your gelding knows that you were responsible for the disappearance of his herd mates and doesn't trust that you will not do the same to him. His base of security has been messed with.
You need to reestablish yourself as the herd leader and that you will take care of your horse. Do a couple of join ups and work with him, but don't push him to be the old horse that he was. It take horse a long time to grieve at the loss of their herd mates. If you have ever weaned a foal you know how long they call for their mom. As long as you keep your breathing slow and relaxed the quicker your horse will start to trust you again.
Dear Libby
We are always discussing whether it is right that the Omega-animal is the one with the biggest separation anxiety. What was his hierarchic position in the group with the ponies? Was he the weakest?
Rudi
That is an excellent question Rudi. If this horse has "become" this agressive after such a thing I have to ask myself, what kind of relationship did you truly have before this episode.
Were you viewed as the "leader"? Doing join-up is fine but with his frame of mind right now be very careful. If you go in there with fear he will smell it and you could be putting yourseld in danger.
Next time you do something like this, think very carefully. There are many sites you can go to on seperation anxiety, read them before you try something you are not sure of next time.
Horses are herd animals and you took his family from him. If one has to do this it has to be done in the correct way.
I had a similar problem with one of my mustangs, Ghost. We had a great relationship until the day I sold another horse,which was never in the same pasture as Ghost, by the way, but close enough, and there WERE other horses, but after the mare I sold was gone, Ghost refused to have anything to do with me for awhile, it was like she thought I was going to make her go away too. It only took her a day or 2 to get over it, but it was rather strange. When she got over staying away from me, she was extremely affectionate for awhile. Maybe your horse is afraid you will make him go away too?
Hello Everyone - thank you so much for all your replies. To answer some questions - yes i've done join up with Toby and have since done this and our relationship is back to normal now. I believe he had a funny spell and was upset about the ponies.
To Dennis - thanks for your reply however I must say the tone was a little uncalled for. I am a loving horse owner who would never dream of doing anything to upset my horse on purpose. His stable (stall) is in the middle of the paddock and is open air with a cover so he can see everything that is going on. It is safer to have him in his stable when gates are being opened, horses are getting on floats rather than running lose in the paddock potentially causing himself or others harm. He saw everything and it was no suprise to him.
To sum up - Toby had a 24hours of very unusual behaviour, very upset & seemingly angry. Since then, we have been out for rides, done join up & he has a new friend who arrived yesterday who he is very happy with so all is good.
Thanks everyone!
Hi Libby,
I didnt comment because I felt that I could not help you, but I am so glad that your Toby is feeling more settled.
We dont always know what upsets our babies and its awful when they change so suddenly.
I hope your both feeling better now, good luck.
Sandie
I think that you under estermate how smart your horse is,he did not trust you when he saw his friends were no longer around and it would have been like your family being taken away because they felt they had no use for them you some times have to be carefull how you do these things or next time do not get these horse and then turn around after they have bonded and get rid of them thier is not a psyhcological problem with him just people that buy and sell with out any feelings,how sad
I think that you under estermate how smart your horse is,he did not trust you when he saw his friends were no longer around and it would have been like your family being taken away because they felt they had no use for them you some times have to be carefull how you do these things or next time do not get these horse and then turn around after they have bonded and get rid of them thier is not a psyhcological problem with him just people that buy and sell with out any feelings,how sad
Horses do get attached to other members in their herd and even seem to have favorites. I worked for my riding instructor and among the many horses she had a gelding who was very close to one of the mares. She did not outwardly show any preference to him that I saw and I did not know just how strongly he felt for her until one day. This was a show mare and was taken regularly off the farm by herself, but always by the instructor and in the same trailer. Cyrano never looked agitated when Funny left. But there came a day when Funny was picked up by another trainer and put into a different trailer. When I arrived that morning I could see him racing in the field, screaming. When I went out to start bringing the horses in, he was wide eyed, sweaty, covered in mud, and was on autopilot. I knew he liked Funny, but had not realized his devotion. I honestly think he could discern that she was put in a different trailer and a different person drove off with her and it clearly caused him great concern. The mare was sent of for training and returned the next year. When she returned Funny seemed indifferent to Cyrano, but his expression was one that suggested his long lost love had returned.
Libby, I don't know anything about the aggression that was displayed, I have never dealt with that nor would I have any suggestions, but am glad to hear there is an improvement. But as far as a horse radically changing behavior after a herd member has been removed, I most certainly have witnessed that specifically. Cyrano could not be used that day as a riding horse, but was used within a few days, if not the next day, it has been over 20 years since that summer day, so my memory is a little foggy. Cyrano seemed fine to us, but I still remember that goofy schoolboy expression he had when Funny came back to the farm the next year. Could it be he continued to think about her? Who knows. But he most definitely remembered her.
I agree with Libby in that some comments are a bit negative and uncalled for. If we truly embrace Monty's philosophies of respect and kindness we need to always keep that in mind when commenting on someones question. Name calling and accusations are not only hurtful but counterproductive, we should never assume that we know the circumstances behind why a horse is bought or sold, quite frankly that's not our business. Please be kind and thoughtful, we are all here to learn how to be better horse owners and better people. I'm thankful for the opportunity to be able to draw knowledge from such a wide base of people across the world and to find a kinship with other horse owners.
I totally agree with you kleinnep, some of these comments are down right rude.
If libbys story is read properly she explains that she had to move the horses to a better place as they were not what she had been told they were.
Stallion and mare in foal.
Wish people would be more gentle and kind with their comments.
Sandie
To bernadeteintahoe - why is it that so many people on this forum like to accuse & be darn right rude to people? You have absolutley NO idea in the situation here so please hold back on your thoughts and give people a chance! As Sandracoleman2810 explains (thanks Sandie)... I was sold my minature gelding and shetland mare falsey - the gelding was a stallion & the mare pregnant - none of which i knew - the gelding was very young & it wasn't clear he was a stallion until a couple of weeks after i had him & it took a vet to tell me the mare was in foal. It was absolutley heartbreaking for me to have to rehome these ponies as they came from a terrbile place (which is why i bought them in the first place, they had been viciously beaten, tortured & neglected - they did not trust humans and were so scared) - i worked with them every day & night and they now trust humans and let the halter on them & be led around. the lady that i sold them to (when i say 'sold' i only made a quarter of what i bought them for back which covered my costs) - she is very good with horses, resuces & re-homes them and also does monty roberts - it was important to me that the ponies went to a good home hence not selling them to the 20 other people that came to view and were willing to pay top $$ for them - they just weren't the right people. I would have loved nothing more than to keep the ponies here however financially i was not in a position to have the stallion gelded & to have a foal so not that i should have to explain myself, i hope this helps you understand a little bit. It's a fact of life that sometimes, things just don't work out - and as much as i want my boy Toby to be happy & settled, unfortuantley that doesn't mean i am going to put myself into a position where i can not look after the horses properly & become in financial strife. As i mentioned, Toby is completly fine now & very happy with everything. PLEASE think before you comment as this forum is really turning me off the whole Monty Roberts thing (i only joined in February) - i just can't believe some people. Thanks.
Someone writes in because they have a problem they need help with, and instead of anything helpful, they get subjected to rudness, criticism, and insults from people who dont know the whole story or dont bother to read it all. I havent been a member for very long either, but have noticed there are fewer posts now than there used to be. I can understand why. This forum was designed to be helpful, so lets keep it that way, please, and not alienate those who need help.
Hi Phantommustang,thanks for your commens & i couldn't agree more. I have only ever posted this one comment on the forum and now fear to post anymore even though I have many questions that I would like help with. It is so dis-heartening to feel like you can't say what is going on & how you're feeling! Lets hope people learn if they don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all!
Libby, most of us are willing to help in anyway we can. Or at least offer encouragement. If you need help or advice in the future, please dont be afraid to ask just because of one or 2 people who cant be nice to others.
Hi Libby
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Please don't be afraid to add your posts to the forum. I haven't been contributing much lately because I haven't had anything useful to add. But I just wanted you to know that the people on the forum are generally very helpful and I personally have been encouraged and supported many times. Give it another go :-)
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Kind regards,
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Gen
Hi Libby
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Please don't be afraid to add your posts to the forum. I haven't been contributing much lately because I haven't had anything useful to add. But I just wanted you to know that the people on the forum are generally very helpful and I personally have been encouraged and supported many times. Give it another go :-)
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Kind regards,
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Gen
Hi Libby,
Please dont let one or two people put you off, I dont comment now much either, but I had to put those last comments on. It was unbelievably rude and Im glad you have responded and are hopefully going to stay with us
Sandie
Dear Libby.
Let us come back to the horses. Could you answer my question about the hierarchic position of your horse in the group? Yesterday I had to catch three horses out of a new group and they behaved absolutely different. I am still looking for a confirmation that the horse in the lowest hierarchic position is the one with the biggest separation anxiety. (Or maybe it's wrong.)
Rudi
Hi Rudi
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When I did my intro course, another lady and I did our project on three horses in a group and how they interacted with each other. Two horses I the group were mates and one horse (William) was on the lowest rung of the ladder in the group and was kept at arms length by the other two horses.
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When we removed William from the other two, I don't think he was too worried about it, but he looked the other horses. We found that the lower ranked of the two mates showed signs of concern when removed from the heard leader, but he wasn't overly anxious - but more "looky" than William.
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When given the opportunity to return to his friend , he did. So I think that the lowere ranking members of the group could be more likely to show more signs of separation anxiety than the more confident group leaders going by what we observed with our little focus heard.
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William also displaced his need for dominance within his heard onto the horses on the other side of the fence when the two mates shoed him. It was really interesting to study their behavior and interaction with each other.
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The main thing with this thread, is that Toby is now OK. I had to sell one of my horse's mates once and it broke my heart because Ranger was so sad. It took him a few days to settle. In that circumstance, Ranger was the less dominant of the two. I have also found that Renacer used to get upset when I took him away from the other horses for a ride. He is at the very bottom of our heard hierarchy. But I have found that doing join up and desensitizing work with him to build trust he is pretty good now when he is with me. But i recently had to put him in a paddock by himself and it took almost two full weeks to settle. He can still touch and see the others, but circumstances required him to be separated by the fence.
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So not sure if this helps, but I think what you are saying may be true.
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See you later,
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Gen
Gen
Thanks a lot for the information.
Rudi
Hi Rudi, actually Toby was the highest in the rank. He was the main boss but I think because he was then left on his own with owner the neighbours horses for company that is why he had seperation anxiety. I actually had a very good friend of mine who is a renowned horse trainer come out & work with Toby over the weekend and we found that Toby has quite a few issues, he is becomming a very dangerous horse & needs re-educating so all of this would have contributed to his behaviour.
I hope that helps & best of luck with your horses.
Thanks,
Libby
This forum was a good one for me to read, I have had problems with seperation anxiety in my horses, and they normally get over it. But, a comment made above by someone basically said that people who buy and sell horses are heartless. You never know the circumstances, and if we continued to buy and buy and never sell, some people do not have the time and money for that. Some horses are meant to stay at a home forever, and others are meant to move on and teach new people how to work with horses. We are all fellow horse people here, treating others with respect and kindness is a must, I believe Libby did nothing wrong, in fact did perfectly right by getting on this university and asking for feedback. Thanks for everyones insight to further my understanding of horses :)