If you have a dually, work with him on the ground getting him moving back, forward and stopping when asked. Doing join-up with him a few times will help also, but the thing that will help the most is to longline him so that he learns how to properly move forward and how to stop. This will also teach him how to rein properly. Obviously, know one has taught this horse anything about how to respond to a rider. He will need to be started from the ground up.
Good luck,
Kleinne

There is quite a lot in there that concerns me Holly....".....serious submission problems...stand there dozing while you kick and kick even if you whack him with a crop....have to yank that horse hard to get him to stop......total rebel with zero respect....dont have time to work with him much...want quick tips...reacquaint him with the position us humans hold"

So, I have to be careful here, this site is for all our education not to be critical or judgemental. However, all that you have said above is directly opposite to the prinicples of Monty's work. The horse seems completely 'shut down' and probably fed up and resigned to everyone kicking him/whacking him/assuming he has no respect etc etc. I don't see any signs of much respect for the horse to be honest and I think he appears to have submitted completely! I'm also wondering exactly what postion do us humans hold that you feel needs to be taught to this horse?

As Kleinne says, he has not been taught any different. The Dually, longlines, and a plastic bag on a stick (see other posts on this) will possibly help Juice to see that work can be pain free, nagging free, and you may get a new lease of life from him as a partnership. This needs time.

Please do not be offended by my observations, you have come here, like all of us, to learn and reflect on your practice; its an important thing for all of us to do no matter how much experience we have.

Good luck.

First of all, thanks for the advice Kleinne! Groundwork might be just the thing Juice needs to become responsive to human aids!
Secondly! Hi, Viccihh1! I would first like to thank you for speaking your mind about my post! The sentences you pointed out leave me kind of embarrased that I didn't explain myself very well! If I read you right, you're thinking we use "domination methods" at my farm! Please believe me, I had no intention of giving that impression! My farm uses the exact same ideas as Monty in teaching students and handling the horses! Gentleness, companionship, a gentle but firm hand! I am so SO sorry for leaving the wrong impression! Juice is an extremely special case! I'll try to explain!
First, let me assure you, at the farm where I ride, crops are never EVER used with the single exception of Juice! I myself NEVER ride him with a crop as I believe that a horse shouldn't ever need one and a human shouldn't ever get used to using them! I know Monty says that in the right hands they're okay and I believe him! I just prefer to not use them!
Juice was owned and trained by a girl who didn't respect horses very much! She always used a crop, kicked him needlessly hard, and yanked on the bit! The point I was trying to make earlier was he is hard-mouthed, hard-flanked, and nonresponsive to any aid we have at the farm! He has a long history dating back to his foaldom where he has a HUGELY independent mind and almost human-like personality so I think that coupled with his abuse extremely desensitized him!
Also, at my farm, he considers himself ABOVE the two-legged creatures which is where my comment "reacquaint him with the position us humans hold" came in! He's been bullying the students at the farm for as long as he's been there! The position we hold is that of the horse's companion, partner, and leader! Juice refuses to recognize that and thinks HE should be OUR leader! I have never met a horse with such an independent mind as he! His work is not "painful", as you said, but I think you got the "nagging" part right! The farm where I ride is strictly a beginner farm save for the few advanced riders they allow to ride in return for volunteer work! (I myself am one of these people!) That's why I put up this post! I have never in my life met a horse like him! I only asked for advice on this University because I need some good, gentle ways to teach this horse to mind the rider on his back! Please excuse the "quick tips" part! I only ride there once a week and I rarely have time to groundwork the horses! Plus, I usually ride the same horse every week as I am on a drill team so I only really have a chance to work with that horse!
If you have any more questions as to my sincerity about the way horses should be treated (the Monty Roberts way) please wipe them from your mind! I would never EVER EVER treat a horse wrong! But thanks for being skeptical and once again, I apologize for the way I worded my post!
Nickers!
Holly

Hi Holly; thankyou for being so gracious and its lovely to hear the fuller explanation: I appreciate it. It sounds as if Juice has been very unhappy and he is lucky that you are there :-) I'm sure with some patience and groundwork he will develop nicely. Best of luck, and thanks again for your openess and explanation. Keep us posted, it will be lovely to hear how he progresses.

Actually, a thought has just come to me after reading this again, was he overhandled as a foal do you think, or hand reared? I only ask as you made an interesting point about his history going back to being a foal.

Just reading through, thinking on the lines that horses can mimic their owners and in his past if he's been barged at so to speak when he's been caught or when in a stall his personal space has not been treated with respect, he might just be copying his previous owners.
Let me expalin, when we first meet a horse if we're not used to horses we can go up to them expecting that they'll just take it and we can stoke them, my friend has gone to do this a few times with our BamBam, which has been interesting watching. My friend goes straight into his space, by this i mean anywhere his head will reach over a stable door, when she does this he comes forcefully back at her, forcing her to take a couple of steps backwards. My mum did exactly the same and she couldnt get near him until I showed her where his space was and not to step into that area until he's come forward slowly. my mum can now stand near him in his space no problem, but my friend who hasnt listened to my suggestion cant get near him.
I figuured out well before knowing of Monty that we needed to communicate with horses differently, watching how horses react when people 'invade' their space has been quite interesting.
Maybe a bit of backing off instead on hands on could be something to make him wake up a little. I'm not too sure how much time can be put into this or pratical on your farm, but working the forward and retreat method, so go to him, but not enter his space, then acknlowedge him, I do this with a direct look at their eyes, then do a slight bow of my head and blink my eyes down as I do so, when i raise my head, I look for but a moment at the eyes again then move away taking my eyes off them. I've done this action now with around 15 different horses, each one in turn, on that slight moment when I look up, bow slightly with their heads and blink back.
There was a moody mare at the last stables we were at, the owner just as moody and would continually say how we're to keep away from her horse as she'll bit and kick us cos she's moody. I used this same technique with this mare as we shared the same field and it worked with her in both the field and stable, she then only seemed ever to be moody with her owner! Her owner had no connection with the horse whatsoever and it was all about control, but with shouts and invading the mares personal space. In effect the mare had no choice and because of this she was more moody than needed.
Maybe just coming out of his space, then join up and give him to choice to want to go forward will help?
Mel
x

Hmmm, both of you make a good point! Juice certainly acts as though he were hand-reared! I definitely wouldn't be surprised if he were! As for the personal space point, Mel, that's a really interesting thought! I think there are tons of factors in Juice's past life that got mixed together to make him the way he is!
(Something quick I'd like to say: reading back once again on my post, it sounds like Juice is a very disliked horse! In reality, it's quite the contrary! The guy actually has his own fan club on facebook and lots of the kids at my farm absolutely ADORE him! He does love the attention! He has his cute moments!)

And now for an update!
Yesterday, a new girl came to the farm who wanted to ride Juice! She asked if she could ride with a bit and we said sure because she was very experienced and had ridden a couple times before at the farm, showing she knew what she was doing! As soon as she got on the Juicer, he acted like the best school horse ever! It was quite frankly AMAZING! I couldn't believe it! She rode him with a crop, but never had to use it as he responded so well!
What helped the most was the bit, but another factor was Juice liked the new girl and she was very experienced! It was so amazing to see if you're like me! (Having known him for several years and never seeing him act that way!) I am still totally blown away just thinking about it! And I am so proud of him! He's shown that he's a great horse who just needed a gentle, firm hand on the bit to bring out the best in him!
Obviously, he still has a long way to go, but he's on his way! :) I'll take all of your suggestions and put them into action! Thanks so much for all who put in their thoughts!
Nickers,
Holly

Wow Holly, how amazing and so wonderful to hear, sounds like this girl and Juice are made for each other - I wonder if she could adopt him! Lovely fairy tale story Holly, it must have been so wonderful to see it happen. Thanks for sharing this with us :-)

Ha-ha! Yep! I definitely think this story can be classified under fairy tale! This girl absolutely LOVES him! And he loves her back which is amazing to see! She has a few horses of her own so I don't see why she couldn't own another one! That would definitely be awesome!
It WAS wonderful! I look forward to seeing their relationship grow! I'll be helping her out by showing her Join-Up and giving her tons of Monty advice!
Thanks to all who took the time to read!
Nickers!
--Holly :)

Great Howlin'madholly sounds the way to go! Have fun and I am sure your horse will too. Horses for people and here you have a great match!

I definitely will!
Ha-ha! Yep! They were totally made for each other!

Glad to see that somebody is able to get the very best out of Juice. There are no quick remedy for a lack of experience. To get experience you need time.

Personaly if somebody would have asked me to work with Juice I have do join up first and then longline him and teach him to move forward back up and turn left and right.

When riding him I would squeeze him ever so gently with my legs and if he refuses to move forward I would whack him with the giddy up rope. Monty demonstrated that the giddy up rope can not couse any pain. Soon the horse will move forward with very light presure. When I see people kicking a horse to move forward I see red!

Thanks luktha!
Juice is still doing very well with his new rider! A few times, he has firmly planted himself in the middle of the arena, something he used to do before Lauren started riding him! Whenever that happens, she asks him nicely to go forward with her legs, then whacks him a couple times with the crop (something I wish she wouldn't do), and then turns him in a tight circle which gets him moving forward! I'm not sure about the circle thing, but it seems effective and it's the only way to get him moving without putting the crop on him!
I'll have to look in to the Giddy Up rope, luktha! That would definitely be helpful!
Nickers!

Hi there! First of all - we humans earn trust and respect - keep up the good thinking Equus! I would start with checking the saddle and then his fetlock joints in both front legs and go from there. He is really trying to tell the humans something! Good Luck! Warmest Ann Lindberg CI Sweden