I'm going to be very blunt, forgive me. Change the horse, it is not fair to th e horse or your daughter to try to remedy this situation. I would use the vet evidence and get your money back. I'm not saying the horse can't be fixed but at the level you want her to work at, it's too risky. There are thousands of good horses waiting for a good home. Yes, I could say great that you have been willing to help the horse, give her a charge a nice etc. And I would agree if you had all the time in the world r is, didn't have a need for high performing competition standard, but in your case you need ultra safe ultra happy horse .

Chance not charge, tablet typo sorry

Hi Rainy,
Welcome back at our Uni and forum!
I remember being in awe about you and your daughter, the good horsework you did.
Now having said that, I fully agree with Vicci, both your daughter and the new horse deserve a trusting situation to work in, and given the problems you describe I think that is not given right now. Better turn back early, than to be sorry afterwards....
Keep us posted on whatever comes next!
Miriam

Thank you Miriam and Vicci for your feedback. I have a lot to think about now. I will keep you posted. I will have to get the horse well to sell her at any rate. So I will see how she progresses with an able bodied rider. Thank-you!!

I'm working with a rearer at the moment and it's cause was rider imbalance. Rainy, can you give me a call and talk me though what's happening fully there might be an option for you, I teach my horses to be therapy horses and they have to handle autistic children. My mobile 07886744113
Mel
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Hi Mel What is the time difference to eastern Canada? About 6 hours maybe. I'll try to call you in the morning my time. I am feeling pretty down and overwhelmed. Chat soon, Lorraine

Hi. I'm sorry you're having issues but this mare is communicating that she is REALLY uncomfortable with what you are asking of her. That may be physical or may be she's sensing something which has her frightend or confused; unsettled for sure. You have discounted returning her to the previous owner & are keen to find her a suitable home. Did she come from a less than ideal situation? Whatever, take a deep breath. Yes, sad that this hasn't worked out as hoped but it could have been so much worse - there could have been injuries, costly whether to horse or human. Take a little time to assess the situation, as unemotionally as possible. Find out if it's a physical problem. You know you have support on the forum. Good luck. Cheers, Jo.

Hi Rainy! Nice to see you here again. :)
So sorry about the new horse!
Sadly, I am inclined to go with vicci and the others; on the grounds that even if this horse will turn out to be an excellent para horse, you also have to asses if she will ever be able to perform physically and mentally at your daughter's desired (high)level.
What was her training level before the problems started? Does the vet think she will be able to go back to full training at a high level?
Fingers crossed Mel can help you!

Hi everyone. Thank you for your feedback. Here is a video clip of what we have been seeing.

https://youtu.be/kAvKVGs3K28 I would greatly appreciate it if you would take the time to view it. This horse is so sweet on the ground, one would never expect this of her. We didn't push her through the behaviour, because I think it may be pain related.--Just can't source it out. Bit has been changed, teeth have been filed, bridle has been changed, saddle has been changed--she has seen a massage therapist, and has been treated for ulcers.

Oi!

Hi Lorraine
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She is clearly unhappy and that will escalate if unresolved - I presume that's your daughter riding; she is calm and loose with her so I don't feel she is aggravating the situation at all.
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The trouble with pain related stuff is that even if the pain has gone, the memory and the anticipation of pain remains so it's difficult to work through. It's great that she has had bit changed etc etc. but this is a long standing issue and it won't just stop as soon as the treatment is given.
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For what my experience is worth, I get the impression of long standing chronic pain that she has had to tolerate, possibly untreated, for some time. Ulcers can develop as a result of stress or restrictive feeding regimes.
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I am no dressage expert but she seems to show signs of having been 'overbent' (almost akin to Rollkur)and it could be that if she has had this in the past she is anticipating "more of this" and the pain associated with it, even though your daughter is not asking for anything like that. However, animals work by prediction and anticipation and she would want to 'snatch' away from this. At this point I may be talking rubbish so would be interested to hear what more experience dressage people thin. If this is the case, then it will take a LONG time for her to realise that this owner is different.
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Forgive me if I'm being too nosey - please tell me to mind my own business if I am! I sense that you didn't have her vet checked when you bought her (as you said you had her checked when the problems started), the previous owner has clearly not told you of these problems. You said you'd have to 'get her right' to sell on (I agree or be very very honest with a prospective buyer). So, weighing all that up, what makes you reluctant to return her and ask for your money back?
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I'm afraid that my original view is the same, if this was a 'pleasure' horse and you had all the time in the world I'd say go for it as you and your daughter appear to have the right temperament for her, you like her, and you want to do right by her but in terms of high level competition - no.
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Of course, there is one other option (if you can afford to) - keep her anyway, work through her issues as a 'pleasure' horse and buy a different one for your daughters ambitions.
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Good luck Lorraine, I hope it works out the way you need it to. Keep us posted.

That was interesting! I have a hard time believing that behavior developed in the three months you had her - unless you have been riding her very differently from that video.
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I am very annoyed with the seller right now. If they were told this horse was for a para-rider, they SHOULD have informed you of this.
Also, I do not believe in "naughty" horses. Most horses I have encountered that behaved "badly" for no apparent reason, really did have a reason do to so.
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Now, for what I see there: First off, I'm thinking the horse is being a real lady about this, She is telling you from the start in a quiet fashion that she is not happy with this and when you persist, she "raises her voice" by backing up and eventually threatening to go up. (These may also be things she has learned works for her to get out of work, and may cease when she finds it no longer flies with you people.)
If she was "mareish" about this, she could just as well bucked her off at once. Says something about her patience with humans. ;)
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Aside from that, I keep getting back to something not being right about the way she uses her hind legs.
She starts off by not stepping beneath her - esp. the left hind that goes out to the side instead. Most of her strides from the hind legs seem off somehow; short and a bit choppy - not creating any real impulsion or bend/angle in the joints.
The few strides when she *does* use (all) the joints in her hind legs the movement does not go all the way through her back so she immediately dips behind the vertical plane to escape the request to move forward. As the rider asks for a little more, she throws up her head again. (Although she does line up her feet quite nicely in the halts!)
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I am no expert on this, but in my experience this kind of behavior stems from problems in the back or lumbar region. It appears to me that while she strikes me as quite agile, she is not willing to use that part of her anatomy.
I would check her sacroiliac joints and for Kissing spines.
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Curious if you have tried to long line her to see if the same problem comes up? Any difference with or without side reins? What happens if you ask her to trot over raised poles?
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As vicci says, the pain may be gone, but if so she still anticipates it, or has learned a behavior from it to escape work. Either way, you have some work cut out for you!
I do like the conformation of this horse! She is quite beautiful to look at, ought to be a nice mover, and seems to be a really nice horse. I do hope you will find a solution.

Ah Kicki - so interesting, I had not noticed this....it has triggered a memory though but I cannot for the life of me find the video/film clip.
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I remember Monty talking about persistent rearers and how they can get ligament/muscle damage in their backs/rear ends to the extent where they lose some tail mobility. I watched the video again....what do you think? Now that I have resurrected that memory (thanks to you) I've looked at it again and realised I would have expected much more tail swishing from an upset horse....am I imagining things/reading too much into this now?

Hi All. I too remember the rearing demo - on Horse & Country TV, I think. I had over 70 saved until my Sky box was changed. Vicci you're right. Horses who rear too much change their physiology & their tails/back legs move less - tail less swish able & stiffer, shorter back end striding. Therefore, I would think a horse that damaged itself in this way would be less able to compete in any discipline at a very high level. However, I'm no expert & cannot confirm if the damage is permanent - I suspect it would be. Apollo used to rear in highly exciting circumstances if he was held back - I quickly learned not to hold him back. To define highly exciting I'll give an example: common ride, about 80 horses out in open country. On Apollo the safe place to be was near the front! He stopped over reacting in this way - I leaned forward, as you do on a rearing horse & tried something. I held out my hand so the tips of his ears touched my fingers. No, I did not hit him. I mean just touch. He came down with his head very low. It took years as Apollo only reared infrequently but eventually he reduced his reaction to tiny bouncing strides where his front feet stayed within 2 or 3 inches of the ground. Even when in his thirties, Apollo was a very exciting but safe partner, never to be forgotton. Cheers, Jo.

Hello Lorraine, my name is Bud Gilbert and I am fairly new to the forum. I have been breeding and training Arabian horses for almost thirty years. Not that that means anything other that when I see a person in need with their horse, my thoughts go to trying to help. I have no background. whatsoever, in para-riding or training. However with that said, when I see an unhappy horse as in the video that you posted, I think sometimes that I can help. So here is my two cents worth. I have questions of you, about what I am seeing in these videos...........#1 How much time elapsed between each video?......#2Was the tack any different from one video to the next?.........#3Did you as a lady and the mother detect anything intuitionally arousing or, less so, with your daughter or the horse from one session to the next?......These questions come from my background as a horseman and from working with people for so many years.... One of my forum friends mentioned earlier about the character of your mare and her ability to be emotionally stretched. That horse really tried to keep it together for your daughter through her unhappiness. Not all horses have that ability...............................................My Idea about these questions is that I see what, appears to be, two different horses being ridden. Obviously that`s not true, so why the huge difference in the presentation by the mare? These, of course, are questions for you and I hope that they will help you in some way with your delemma......................................Regarding your mare and possible physical problems, the only thing that I would comment on was that I didn`t think that her rear-end measured-up to the conditioning level of the front quarters. However, with that said. horses usually can`t produce the level of elegance that I saw in the walk in those other two videos without the dynamics of impulsion. . I don`t know that any of this helps you, but maybe it gives you some pause through contemplation. The only thing physically that has been talked about recently regarding the rear-end tightness is that castration sometimes leaves geldings super tight in the groin area. While in the mares there is some evidence of ovaries being misaligned during the maturing process. I know that you are probably stressed about this situation, but you have many friends on this forum. Please keep us posted. Bud USA

This is in response to the rearing issue. I haven't had enough experience with rearing horses and the physical effects of too much rearing to say, but for this particular horse, it strikes me as unlikely to have done a lot of rearing. Partly since she never really rears up here - just threatens to - and partly because it is a rare thing. Horses protect their belly, they rather not expose it unless forced to.
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The exception being circus horses etc who are trained to go up and do so a lot (on cue).

Hello Lorraine and good morning. After sleeping on what I wrote about your situation yesterday and re-reading all the above commentary above, I am left with the thought that what I viewed in your video of the mare with your daughter riding might be bit evasion. If were me, I think that would remove the bit from use at this time and try riding her in a bitless bridle, or a hackamore or possibly a dually halter. I would suggest that you be the rider, and after a good warm-up period prior to riding, I would mount and ask her for a walk ONLY, while taking the reins out of your hands {hang on to the panic strap located at the pommel}. See if you could bring about some relaxation with this mare while lengthening her stride in the walk. Once horses start acting out, the behavior seems to escalate in a hurry. This approach might change her thoughts about being ridden while encouraging her to relax. She might be asking to be ridden out of a collected frame. If this is the case, hopefully she will honor your attempt for a smooth riding connection.........While this is happening, maybe you could some additional video of her from behind would be helpful so that all of us could see how she is carrying through from a back-side view. I hope that this helps you and your mare figure this problem out.....Bud USA

Hello Rainy and how are things going for you? I just finished rereading all the comments regarding your delemma with your mare. My thoughts are if you found soreness in the wither and back area, that could be coming from a horse that needs more conditioning to be ridden in a collective frame. Collection, as you know, requires many hours of practice to build the muscles and their respective ligaments to support collective riding. This conditioning takes more time for some horses than others depending on where and how they matured into adulthood. It also depends on whomever started them with this activity and their knowledge and experience to frame the horse in this discipline. Remember, Rainy, that a horse`s spinal column isn`t fully fused until 6 to 7 yrs of or older depending on the length of both back and neck.......................One of my forum friends suggested to try your mare in the long lines so you might see if she was maintaining the soreness issues. I think , if were me, that`s where to start. It gives you the opportunity to put her into a collected frame without the weight of a rider on her back. In any collected riding there must be time given to the horse for stretching out and relaxing. This has to be in balance with the collective approach to the horses movement. All of this takes time to produce a soft and compliant horse. Then, if you add in the relationship aspect of rider and horse---you can see where I am going there.. That why these horses are so difficult to come-by. There many hoops to jump through by both rider and horse when you bring a new individual into your life. If you really like this mare, give her a chance. However, if you do, this might place the time-line for your daughter`s riding in a different light. The door of uncertainty is never easy for us to walk through, but their could be much wisdom to be learned on the other side. You are doing a great thing for your daughter. Kindest regards Bud

Hi Lorraine, sorry late seeing your reply. I'm 5 hours in-front of you. As you're in Canada, skype chat might be better. There are exercises I can teach you to help rectify this and to help your mare become calmer. From looking at the rider there is an imbalance there too, so I can help with that also. Your daughter will also need to do some work with her, don't panic it'll all be within your daughters disability ranges, but it is something that needs to be done if you want her to ride your mare and to become a trusted companion for your daughter. Add me on Skype Mel.Hetfield
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Who was riding your mare?
Mel
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