Don't be too concerned about her getting spooked by the long-lines behind her, she'll get used to them that's part of the training. As far as getting her to canter with the long-lines one thing that I've noticed Monty does and I've also used this trick and had great success with it is too lift the line that goes behind her butt up high in the air to encourage her to move faster. It's almost like raising your hand higher during join-up to bring up her energy. He also uses that same line and swings it in against her butt to encourage a faster pace almost like a giddy-up movement. I hope I'm explaining this so that you understand what I'm saying. Good luck and let me know how this works for you.

Hi HeplILoveHorses,
Her being unwilling to canter might have the same cause as the other items you mention elsewhere on this forum. As Kleinne says, her being spooky about the lines is quite typical for mare, something coming from behind...
Please have her checked, so you're sure she doesn't have any skeletal- or muscular problems. The act that she wants to run in the arena, and doesn't canter there as well, seems related to what you describe on the longlines.
Miriam

She is fine with the long lines, and ive tried extensively with the raising the long lines and the butt tapping, but it doesnt seem to work, she just gets to the point of such a fast trot she wants to refuse to move and spook. She is capable of cantering in the round yard free lunging, but not in the arena, she is far capable under saddle in the arena, i would just like to know how to get her to canter in the arena with the long lines as i would like to improve her gaits, as her trot is coming along beautifully since i first started long lining her. I dont do anything when she spooks, i just hang onto the long lines and try to encourage her to come back, she drags me around but i just hang on. I think shes been long lined and system lunged before as the first time i did it, she was perfect, and knew exactly what to do.

oh and im getting an equissage done on her this coming sunday as she does seem a little muscle sore on her neck and back.

If you have noticed she is muscle sore on her neck and back and you have noticed that she doesn't like to canter and you have noticed that she was pretty good bareback does that not suggest to you that it might be an idea to wait until her back has been checked and to make sure there is no problem with her saddle before progressing any further?

And she is a little tummy sore aswell, probably all from the fall, but she will recover and especially with the equissage. She will canter in the round yard freelunging and will canter under saddle, im just thinking she might feel insecure in the long lines?

Vicci is sooo right, give the poor thing a good rest and thoroughly checked out and then checked again for verification that all is a "go" from the equine vet before proceeding. And.....then....follow all of the great tips you've just been given.

What kind of surcingle are you using?
There are many varieties and many of those will pinch the horse around the whithers. The strap around the belly can also be too thin to spread the pressure when it's been tightened. Thinking esp. of your horse with the sore belly. (A tunnel of some soft material can do the trick there.)
The best surcingle is one that comes in two separate pieces held together by a metal bough over the back, and not too thick in the padding. Like this one:
http://www.anders-eriksson.se/produkter.html
.
My older mare slipped and fell on the ice last winter and while she wasn't hurt as such, she was terribly sore around her thigh. I actually feared a broken rib, but it was "just" an enormous bruise. Never the less it had her resting for a good two weeks before I could do anything with her except let her out in the field so she could move a little easier than inside the box. There is no massage that will "fix" a bruise - possibly some heat lotion to help with the blood circulation.
Fingers crossed your horse will feel better soon.

Geez guys, i only see her once a week so how am i over working her.? She has 6 days of rest, and about 30 mins of slow and easy exercise, its not like im thoroughly exercising her once a day... anyway, yes kicki im using a lunge roller, it has rings all over and at the riders calf aswell, just like montys surcingle

Oh and i use a girth sleeve (soft wool sleeve for the girth) and i use under the roller a saddle blanket and a numnah, i do try and make it comfortable, i dont know why so many people think im one of those stuck up cruel dressage trainers, geez, hey, i rescue horses frequently from horrible conditions, personally i dont think im cruel

Ok, I feel we need to get a few things clear here. (1) You first asked about this mare one week ago. From the number of comments and questions you have asked/received I assumed that you were working this horse a lot but now you tell us it is only once a week so I for one, have misunderstood this but I have to say it is the impression you have given, however I am also at fault for not clarifying that so apologies. (2) If you only work her once a week then you have not yet had time enough to implement all the suggestions, it will take a few sessions before you see improvement. (3) I will revise my advice now (based on this new knowledge) and suggest that you, as I suggested, do nothing until she has had her back and saddle fit checked BUT then, rather than working her once a week for 30 mintutes you may want to consider 3/4 times a week for 10/20 minutes if possible depending on what the advice of the back specialist is PLUS she maybe needs a lot more 'warm up' time before she does any work (some need more warm up than others). I do have one final point to make and in the spirit of openness and honesty if anyone feels I am being too harsh then please say so. There is an unbelieveable amount of knowledge and expertise on here to which I contribute a small piece. Despite being a horse and dog trainer myself I am in awe of the specialist knowledge that people like Kicki, Paul, Maggie etc. have and I learn something all the time. Sometimes, we have to swallow our pride a bit and accept that we might be on the wrong path or needing some advice. You came on here, I assume, to seek advice and support which you have had A LOT of. We may not all be right and we may not all agree, but we give our thougts freely to do as you please with. What I will not accept is your defensive stance and accusation. Nowhere at all, not once, has anyone been rude to you, accused you of cruelty, or done anything other than try to support you. You can disagree with us all by all means, I for one, welcome debate but if you do not want the answers, please do not ask the questions.

I would just like to say that vicci speaks for me as well in her last post.
.
HelpILoveHorses, I am very sorry if I have expressed myself in any way that made you feel I was "out to get you". That was never my intention. I'm sorry, but I am not apologizing, because there is apparently a number of information that we didn't have about you or your horse, and therefor had to go on what we had. Her injury, for example, was mentioned later, and only now do you say how often and long you train her. All these details, so obvious to you, are impossible for us to guess if they aren't stated.
.
The problems caused by the "generic" or conventional surcingles are quite new to most people dealing with horses, so that is why I suggested it could be a cause since you say the problem comes when you long line her.
The one in the pic I linked to was developed only about 10 maybe 15 years ago - and while it actually builds on very old equipment and experience, not many professionals (and even less amateurs) have heard about it yet.
It's the jointed top part that is vital to its function.
Great that you pad the girth! :) Then we can cross that from the list.

Thank you Kicki. That surcingle looks good! Unfortuantely I can't read Swedish (I wish I was multilingual) - does it have a particular name so I can see if there is a stockist in the UK so I can go and have a look at it>

Vicci, this is all of the problems i have had since the start, and i do warm her up alot, i start with join up, then i do little exercises with the dually, next i long line her for about 10 minutes, at walk/trot, mainly walk, then i put the system on for 10 minutes at walk/trot, and mainly trot once again. I do not over work her, and i have cool down exercises with her, but sometimes i will ride her instead of system lunging for 20 minutes at mainly walk and a tiny bit of trot, doing just small circles and working with her forwardness, then after each small session, i wash her down, just water, then i scrape her off, wslk her around and hang out with her while she eats loads of grass, then i give her hay, and sometimes a massage after a sessions (i know a little equissage) anyway, i posted this question for a solution or training tips, not to be told things that i dont even do...

Oh and im beginning to think shes not sore on her tummy, shes just girthy. I think the small massages are beginning to help with her sore ish back, its not bad. I cant afford to get her an equissage this weekend, im low on money. And i work full time so its hard to go out 3 to 4 times a week as she is 30 minutes away from me. Im going out this weekend to stay (owner of agistment lets me stay in the spare room) so does anyone have any suggestions what to do this weekend with her? Im training my clients horses also, another thing the colt and the mini are coming along perfectly!

I'm glad the colt and mini are coming on well, that's good news. Ok, so that we don't get any more misunderstandings and endless posts of "have you done this - yes i've done this!" Can you tell us (1) more about this 'lunging system' - what exactly is it, is it a Pessoa or some other system. How long have you been using it for. Have you used it with other horses i.e. are you very experienced in its use? (I am not so am interested for both reasons!) (2) How long have you owned her? (sorry if you've told us this already but I can't find it) (3) Since you owned her how many times (if any) have you had her back checked by a physio or other specialist? (4) How many times since you had her have you had her saddle checked/refitted? (4) what made you choose the Equissage? Was it recommended to you by a specialist or did you choose it yourself?

vicci,
The surcingle is sold by Tärnsjö Garveri(Tannery). You can find their horse products here:
http://tarnsjogarveri.com/wip/horse_old/produktgrupper.php?locale=en_GB.UTF-8
Scroll down the page to the Anders Eriksson surcingle. Mr. Eriksson is a great horseman -a bit in Monty's spirit actually - was once in the Swedish National Team in carriage driving and has developed this surcingle.
For Tärnsjö's home page go here:http://tarnsjogarveri.com/wip/en/leather/

Thanks Kicki :-)

Well this lunge system is the roller system, im actually not sure what brand (its an australian one) ive owned her for a while and no ive never had her back checked and ive never hadher saddle fitted (I know roughly how to fit them myself) and ive never had an equissage on her, but basically its just a person from the company equissage australia who comes out with equissage machines, backpack and boot, and does that on your horse.

Vicci as asked some good questions so answers to these may help us all. Pity you can't afford to have her checked out this week end as that seems a top priority. Is she OK to walk out of the arena or round yard? If she is then I would suggest you ride her out of the arena in straight lines at walk or lead her in the dually and avoid the circle work until you can get her back checked.. Riding up and down hills at a walk is one of the best excercises to strengthen their backs Start with a fairly gentle slope and then progress to steeper ones. IF she hasn't been ridden for awhile then she will need to strengthen and build up her top line. Another good back strengthening exercise which you can try in the ménage or round pen is to lead her at walk over ground poles. Keep her at the sweet spot and walk over them together so that if she does trip she will not fall on you. This will help her shuffling and tripping too as it will encourage her to lift her hooves up. Place them apart at her stride width. My horse has them at approximately 30cm apart. Once she can walk over them cleanly without tripping or touching them raise the opposite ends of each of the end poles . Once she achieves this then try raising the opposite end of each alternative pole. This may give something to do as you wait for her back to be checked out by a professional.

It seems I posted at the same time you did. It is good to finally have this information so thanks Vicci for once again asking the right questions and helping us all out as it was becoming complicated. It is up to you now, I LoveHorses, as a top priority to have her back and teeth checked and saddle fitted by professionals. Once this is done then we maybe able to help you more but not before.

Yeah I bought anshow browband (very expensive) this week so I cant afford it. She is fine to walk/trot, I do rounding and stretchign and warming up exercises with her such as long lining her whilst rounding and I point my hand or a stick at her tummy or girth area, and that causes her to stretch her trot out a bit, so shes improving her shuffly trot alot. This weekend im just going to long line her and do some stretching exercises like above and trot poles, etc etc and some equissage stretching, then we are going to walk her out on the trails in hand and see how she does as a cool down exercise, then I will do as usual, give her a big haynet and wash her down, etc. Any suggestions for anything else to do?

Priorities???

What a long discussion...
If you are sure that there is no medical problem (or if the horse canters on the pasture) you could try to stimulate the horse with the plastic bag without desensitizing it and then go on from negative consequences to positive consequences. I have put two videos on the Equus Online Uni Group on Facebook some times ago that may help. (You must be a member of the group to be able to see them.)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=345940572182542&set=o.115522818628261&type=2&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=380628178713781&set=o.115522818628261&type=2&theater

Rudi

Well im sorry maggie but I bought it before I needed to get her equissage or anything like this. She is doing much better now. I took her for a walk out in hand yesterday and she was really good considering it was her first time, although she turned into a full blood thoroughbred on oats about to walking the ring before a race.... haha she is awesome to trot bareback aswell, even in the rain. She didnt do much exercise this weekend, it was more of a break. She canters in the paddock and when being lunged, next weekend im going to see whether she can canter under saddle or not.

Just worthy of bringing this thread up again given our recent discussions re this mare. HelpILoveHorses everything you have told us about this mare in September and now recently tends to indicate that she may have a chronic back problem in the pelvic region just behind the saddle. Shuffling and tripping, trotting fast with her head up, unwilling to canter and if she does canter only cantering on her front legs, problems in sand, panicking when you ask her to go backwards with the dually, panicking when you ask her to unload from the float. Perhaps her initial injury was caused when unloading from a float hence her current scrambling. This back problem has probably been with her for a number of years given "her old owner mentioned something about getting a chiropractor and physio to her every 6 months" but her bad fall in winter has obviously re triggered an old injury. I am so pleased that you are now ready to have her checked out thoroughly by a professional. A good horse vet, chiro or physio would be best - perhaps you could use the ones the previous owner used as they would know your mare. I doubt whether an equissage would have the desired skills for this mare so save you money for a good horse vet, chiro and/or physio. I have two mares with chronically bad backs and I too need to get the physio and/or chiro to them every six months or so. One is my Nicky who sounds so like your mare and she obviously had a bad back injury when she was being western ridden before she was six and then sold to my young neighbour. Her back is manageable with physio visits and chiro and she is a beautiful forward horse to ride when all is well with her. She is usually such a placid horse with perfect ground manners so I always know when her back is sore as she puts her ears back when I go to saddle her. You can also quickly pick up from her movements under saddle when she is sore so then it is physio and rest for a couple of weeks. My other mare with a bad back is my beautiful Tricka. She shied badly on slippery grass when she was only 4 threw me off but landed on her back on her saddle. She took some time to get up and initially like you I feared her back was broken. It has been 4 years now of physio and chiros every 6 months or so for her and not much riding. Every time I ride her a bit more often to try to build her back muscles up she gets sore and needs to be rested again. Currently she is the best she has been since her accident but all she needs to do is gallop around in her paddock and slip badly to set it off again. Sadly when she is feeling fittest that she is most likely to do damage again. All the best with your mare. I do hope I am wrong and that the physio or chiro can give you a good report. Once she is checked out you can re-assess her working program but it would be best not to ride her at all - not even at walk for 10 minutes until she sees a professional. That is all from me now.

she now canters fine but has trouble pushing from behind hense why i am getting her checked out by a physio and chiro. she now trots beautifully on the verticle, consistantly round, has a lovely trot. she no longer stumbles or trips. she only throws her head up in pain when through thicker sand. she is now fine going back with the dually. i dont ask her to come out of the float she will fly out herself and blow up, my only option is to let go of the rope. i do agree that she may have had a floating accident and falling in the paddock may have triggered an old injury. she will canter with her back legs but hardly at all. she is fine trotting/cantering whilst being lunged. I do lunge her very lightly in the roundyard as it is sand and it has helped with her "condition" also i have been doing joinup and does great with that. i am going to start taking her on small trips out on the trail as the trail up the road is hard gravel so that might help with "condition". btw that haflinger we bought is awesome, her coat is lovely shiny and golden now, her tail is growing back also. we had a rider get on her for the first time in a few years and she was awesome, didnt give an evil look, wasnt green, she was soft on the bit, etc.