Hello, all.
I've just had the pleasure of my first join up and now have questions. First, the experience was a lot of fun! It did not go quite as the video lessons showed, however. Thus, the questions.
A little background: My horse is quite the dominant personality. (I had posted under a different forum name. This horse is a 3 year old quarter horse named Emzara. She tends to be dominant over her pasture mate but I am working through that issue but she wants to be in charge) She has been in a round pen at her previous owner's farm. I do not know all that was done but I do know she had a small rider on her when she was about 2 1/2 years old.
Since I've had her (only 8 months) she has been quite pushy, etc. I have been working to help her "subdue" that behavior and there has been some progress. Last week, a new round pen was delivered but rain and heat has prevented use of it until this evening.
Now, I know join up can be done without a round pen and I did some of that in the pasture with sending her off and making her "want" to come in. I wanted a round pen for my ease of use! So, tonight was the first try.
My plan was to send her in both directions, watching for her ear to turn to me, licking and chewing, lowering of the head and a slowing of gait with a body language of wanting to come in. I got some of that but not quite what I had hoped for.
It was difficult to get her to change directions. She "waggled" her head several times to let me know she was in charge. Once, she turned her rear toward me and faux kicked. This is her way of keeping in control. I was not interested in her speed but she was moving quite rapidly, especially at the beginning, of course. When I wanted to get her to change directions, I would move toward the side of the pen at an angle to cut her off but she would charge right on forward. I held my ground as long as I could, swinging the rope to get her to change but she kept right on coming. In this game of chicken, I was losing!
In order to reduce her victory in keeping her direction, I tried to slow her pace so that I could more easily get her to turn. That worked better but I didn't feel like I was the one who was doing the directing. It was almost as though she decided she would turn. But in the big picture, I believe there was some progress in getting her to change when I wanted her to do so.
When I finally saw the licking and chewing and her head moving toward the ground, I stopped my movement and stood at an angle to her, making sure my fingers were tight together and my eyes were not on her eyes. She stopped and seemed to be pondering what to do. She came in slowly and I rubbed her forehead. But, she didn't stay! She turned to the side and went on. Soooo, I kept sending her on. I did this several times...total time in the pen was about 20 minutes. She finally came and stood a bit while I rubbed her head and told her how wonderful she is. :-) I put the rope down and walked a bit wanting to have the "quality time" with her. She would come to me as I held out my hand and clucked but she never did follow me. I would have to move, then stop. Only then she would come to me.
So, my question: is join up a process so that I need to do several sessions until I get the desired result or should I stay in the round pen with her until I get the result right then regardless of how long it takes? It is hot and humid here and I didn't want to get her too hot or make it so she would hate the experience. If I need to keep at it in one session, I will wait until a cool morning and give it a go.
It surely is fun! I think she will be a great horse once we are in agreement about who is running the show!
I've just had the pleasure of my first join up and now have questions. First, the experience was a lot of fun! It did not go quite as the video lessons showed, however. Thus, the questions.
A little background: My horse is quite the dominant personality. (I had posted under a different forum name. This horse is a 3 year old quarter horse named Emzara. She tends to be dominant over her pasture mate but I am working through that issue but she wants to be in charge) She has been in a round pen at her previous owner's farm. I do not know all that was done but I do know she had a small rider on her when she was about 2 1/2 years old.
Since I've had her (only 8 months) she has been quite pushy, etc. I have been working to help her "subdue" that behavior and there has been some progress. Last week, a new round pen was delivered but rain and heat has prevented use of it until this evening.
Now, I know join up can be done without a round pen and I did some of that in the pasture with sending her off and making her "want" to come in. I wanted a round pen for my ease of use! So, tonight was the first try.
My plan was to send her in both directions, watching for her ear to turn to me, licking and chewing, lowering of the head and a slowing of gait with a body language of wanting to come in. I got some of that but not quite what I had hoped for.
It was difficult to get her to change directions. She "waggled" her head several times to let me know she was in charge. Once, she turned her rear toward me and faux kicked. This is her way of keeping in control. I was not interested in her speed but she was moving quite rapidly, especially at the beginning, of course. When I wanted to get her to change directions, I would move toward the side of the pen at an angle to cut her off but she would charge right on forward. I held my ground as long as I could, swinging the rope to get her to change but she kept right on coming. In this game of chicken, I was losing!
In order to reduce her victory in keeping her direction, I tried to slow her pace so that I could more easily get her to turn. That worked better but I didn't feel like I was the one who was doing the directing. It was almost as though she decided she would turn. But in the big picture, I believe there was some progress in getting her to change when I wanted her to do so.
When I finally saw the licking and chewing and her head moving toward the ground, I stopped my movement and stood at an angle to her, making sure my fingers were tight together and my eyes were not on her eyes. She stopped and seemed to be pondering what to do. She came in slowly and I rubbed her forehead. But, she didn't stay! She turned to the side and went on. Soooo, I kept sending her on. I did this several times...total time in the pen was about 20 minutes. She finally came and stood a bit while I rubbed her head and told her how wonderful she is. :-) I put the rope down and walked a bit wanting to have the "quality time" with her. She would come to me as I held out my hand and clucked but she never did follow me. I would have to move, then stop. Only then she would come to me.
So, my question: is join up a process so that I need to do several sessions until I get the desired result or should I stay in the round pen with her until I get the result right then regardless of how long it takes? It is hot and humid here and I didn't want to get her too hot or make it so she would hate the experience. If I need to keep at it in one session, I will wait until a cool morning and give it a go.
It surely is fun! I think she will be a great horse once we are in agreement about who is running the show!
You're well on your way to building a new relationship with your mare...
Let me try to clear a few of your questions:
- Join-Up is a conversation between two living beings, it's not about 'who's in charge'.
If you watch Monty do a Join-Up you will find he changes his bodylanguage during the process, He'll be square and big at the beginning, sending the horse away, eyes on eyes, shoulders square. When it comes to turning into the other direction, it's of course safer if the horse doesn't go at full speed. Still it's your bodylanguage that helps the horse to change direction. Look the horse in the eye, be big and walk towards the horse's head.
- Even if you might do not more than 5 or 6 Join-Ups with your horse, it's never meant to exhaust the animal. A conversation should last as long as both parties are happy to be part of it...
Important is that you have fun, but more important is, that your horse has fun!
She should be allowed to express herself, like you described her faux kicking, as long as you don't feel threatened by it. Sending her away with a firm bodylanguage should show her, that you need your safe personel space.
Your idea of waiting for a cool morning is a very good one, summer can be quite hot in some places!
- You had some difficulty getting her to Follow-Up, I have a funny suggestion for you:
Stand in front of a big mirror and try out the whole spectrum of your bodylanguage!
You might find it hard to express the extreme opposites... Try to see yourself as an actor on stage, using all your possibilities to express yourself, from the preditor to the friend...
Have fun and dare to be big and small!
- Watch as many videos on this Uni as you can, to get a feel for timing, speed and direction of speed, this is what we're all trying to improve day by day, the learning never ends!
Even for Monty!!
Let us know how you're doing!
Miriam
Becoming Em's leader has been a priority since I got her. She's quite a pleasant soul in so many ways but when she wants to do something, it matters not who or what is in the way! She's quite a bit larger than I...most horses are bigger than people...so it is easy for her to push through. Using the Dually has certainly helped in that regard as she is learning what it means to have good manners.
Her prior owner had put apples into his hoodie so when I got her, she was right up on me, looking for what she thought should be there...even if I wasn't wearing a hoodie! She would rear up a bit...not strike out with her fronts...but she was letting me know she wasn't happy with the new arrangement. She has reared up as I was leading her, too. First time shocked me to death. Fortunately, I'm not a screamer or I'm sure I would've yelled out. At the time, I only had a lead rope but i yanked on it a bit to let her know that's not acceptable. Once I got the Dually, that has changed! She did it once more...got schooled. Thought about it once again but that's all the further it went. I continue to watch for her head to begin to bob up just in case. Hopefully in time I will be alert but not anxious about it.
After the first join-up, despite my thoughts about not quite getting there, I do think she was getting some things into her mind. On the morning following the first attempt at join up, I had another session and the change was remarkable...change in BOTH of us!
She was not nearly as frantic, which makes perfect sense. She understood that she had done this before and it was harmless. I was able to turn her more easily as well . One of the things that helped my work was that I had a heavier rope that I could toss much better. The other one was a lightweight nylon and was almost pointless to have. She was not racing around the pen either which let me know that she was more relaxed and I was able to explain to her what I wanted.
So, I am making progress and my dear Miss Emzie is, too. Last evening, I went into the round pen with the intent to see if she would come in, too. We had had two join up sessions at this point. I didn't want her to get so that she hated her lessons. I gave her my special little whistle and she came right in! I stood in the center and she walked right up to me and stopped with her head lowered a bit in relaxation. I rubbed her forehead and told her how wonderful she is, then turned and walked away. She didn't follow me but she didn't run to get out of the pen either. I didn't do anything further since my plan had already been completed.
Once again, thanks for the good tips and encouragement, Miriam. I am fully enjoying this process and somehow I think Em is, too. I've watched a lot of the lessons but of course when I get ready to implement them, I will watch again. The Dually truly is a miracle, in my opinion. It helps me feel that I am safe and that I can allow Em to teach herself when she decides to do one of her little tantrums. :-) She's going to be a great horse...well, she is great now but she'll be even greater!
Lovely to read about your progress with young Em!
It's great to see that you realised, that when YOU feel safe, your horse feels safe with you...
They are animals of synchrony, need to be so in the herd. When you take the role of the leadmare, she'll thank you for it, so she doesn't need to do so herself!
You might have noticed the 'rosettes' some of us have gathered on this Uni.
If you do the quiz at the end of each lesson, you'll gain some too. This way others can see what you've accomplished. And not only others, you can feel proud of yourself too!
Use the lessons and watch them over and over, they are great tools in our learning process!!
Have fun and keep us posted!
Miriam
Lovely reading the details there, one thing I will add to Miriam's comments is that if your horse is trusting you, there is no need for Join-Up. Save any further Join-Up sessions for when you want to teach her something new that might be a bit too much for her, say if you have tried to teach her and she starts to rear or spook just to reiterate that you are a trusted leader. I like the whistle!
Mel
x
Mel
x
Bud
With that in mind, I have been patiently working with her, especially backing her up. When I come into the field, she always meets me but she never wants to be "with" me. Because she has reared up from behind a couple of times, I'm pretty cautious as I walk toward the barn to feed. Now, as I come into the field, I try to pat her forehead and ask her to back up so that I'm moving her feet rather than her moving me! I think that is helping.
So, today, I had the Dually halter on her, leading her to a shady spot since it is pretty warm...not in the round pen. I worked with her on moving her quarters and she's learning great. After several times on each side, I led her to the round pen. My plan was to change pace as I was leading her so that she would speed up/slow down as my pace changed. She was doing great. We didn't quite get to the trot yet but we were walking at a fast clip. She would always stop at my shoulder without any input from me.
So, here's what made today GREAT. I decided to give her some quality time but I wanted to leave the Dually on so I could lead her back to the barn after the quality time was ended. I unhooked the lead and walked away. SHE FOLLOWED ME! I was thrilled. In order to make sure it wasn't a fluke, i walked around the pen a bit, across the middle, etc., and she was right there at my shoulder. She was even stopping if I stopped! After approximately 4 minutes, she tired of the process, I guess, and meandered off. I let her go on since this was "her" time but I pretended to pull some weeds at the edge of the pen. She, as a curious little soul, came to see what I was doing and then followed me again as I began walking. It was wonderful.
I am so happy to see this improvement in her. I think she is beginning to trust me. Tomorrow, I'm going to repeat today's lessons and see what happens. My thinking is that once this little mare trusts me, the sky's the limit on what she will be able to do. She is very smart and picks up the new movements quickly.
Thanks for letting me share my joy! I just wanted to shout it from the housetops. If she does it again tomorrow, maybe I will! :-)
I would not recommend you do Join-Up again now until you teach her something big that she becomes nervous about. If you managed to record your Join-Up sessions, could you re watch through them and look at your body language when you are asking for follow up. Re watch Montys videos to see if your body language is matching Monty's.
Horses are reactive so once you have all the signals of Join-Up it is what we do that prevents the horse from following up. It could be you look at them directly in the eye for too long, that you have not crossed over the body correctly to invite her to follow. Sometimes some horses stand and wait for you to come to them and wait with them, I have encountered many horses like this and on observing herd interactions this is quite normal, they have accepted your leadership and are waiting for the next request. Again if you do not give the correct communication to follow up they will stand and wait. A simple way to get over this if you cannot see from watching videos back is to go to the horse and stroke it, slip on the lead rope and go for a walk all around the round pen or schooling area and ask her to come into the sweet spot with you. Then unhook the lead rope like you did in your description and they will follow with you.
In the Equus language when horses stand face to face with each other, even without any fighting, this is a communicating of dominance between each other, the first one to back up losses. When horses want to be with each other they do not stand directly face to face to each other but stand to face each other but to the side of each other respectfully out of each other's personal space. When you face your horse and ask for a back up each time you say hello, it is to the horse you are asking to dominate. It does help to a degree, but the aim needs to be leadership not dominance, if you try standing facing her but off to the side and keep out of her personal space until she leans her head forwards inviting you into her space, you will find this will start to make things even better for you. A horses personal space is anywhere at the front where the head can reach. Think of it if you were at a party and someone comes to talk to you, but they are in your face as they speak, you feel like you want to back up or tell them to back up. Likewise when we 'invade' the horse's space although polite horses do react to it. When the horse invites us into their space the relationship improves.
I can envisage this action, and it is the body language of you turning and walking away that instigated the follow-up. This is the body language she would have been looking for in the round pen when you tried to Join-Up but did not get.
Can I just say something too, 'She is already trusting you' you just have to believe that what you are doing is communicating with your horse. :D
From your comment where you took the lead rope off and left the dually on, I was not sure if that was in a confined space or open area. In case I read it wrong, which I often do ;) please ensure the dually is used in a safe space such as a round pen when unhooking the lead rope, it is not designed to be used in open spaces without a lead rope or reins connected to prevent any objects, fencing, trees or hooks we might have around the place be a potential hazard to catch the dually training rings.
I am not sure where you are with Monty's video trainings, remember to do the questions at the end of the video so you can start collecting rosettes which will show on your profile.
Well Done! You are doing good!
Mel
x
Its all about the horse!
I believe that tuckachance had the breakthrough of connection when FOCUS on the mare strong point area of the thinking.
Tuckachance, you are well on your way to a magicl connection.
Bud
When I removed the Dually, we were in the round pen. I understand it is not to be left on in an open space as there are too many ways a horse could be entangled with something. I never leave any halter or headgear of any kind of my horses for these same reasons.
How I wish I could record my sessions to see exactly what I am doing. I have watched and answered questions for 59 videos so far. It appears the first rosette is at 100! I've got a ways to go. And, even though I am really working at this, I know that my inexperience contributes to a slower process. Hopefully, my inexperience is not detrimental to Em but I don't know how else to do this...except to do this! There are many, many "little" things that are really BIG things in our movements, eye contact or lack thereof. I try to remember everything but I, too, need to have patience with myself and continued willingness to learn, concentrating on what I am doing in addition to what Em is doing. How I wish I had someone to observe but I have no "horsey" friends or neighbors. Nonetheless, I will not be deterred!
When Em greets me at the gate, I will be more aware as to where I am standing. It is a good reminder of the language of Equus with the position I need to take with her. I have not thought she is head shy in the true sense of the word but there is hesitation at some times but not others so that is something that I have overlooked. There must be something I am doing/communicating when she hesitates. When she is in her stall, looking out over the door to me, for example, she seems to enjoy being patted on the forehead and having her face massaged. There is no adverse response when I touch her ears. When I am putting on the halter, she lowers her head and does not resist being haltered. At this point, she is confined so her choices are limited. I mistakenly took that to mean she was willing...which she is to a degree...but it's not like being out in the field.
So, on we go...more wonderful ground to cover! Thank you again, Mel...and Bud...for taking the time to teach and encourage. It means a lot.
Messaging her over the poll and at the base of the ears will do wonders to relax her, and once she is relaxed you can ask her to do the little th[ngs that will help her to see you as a leader ;ie move her feet in all directions, ask her to lower head on an incremental basis ,until she puts her nose on the ground, carrot stretches [nose to butt] to name a few. You write about her as blossoming into a dominate mare at a young age. I would let her take the lead when comes to the other horses, but when it comes to you, that is TOTALLY DIFFERENT. She must make the distinction, This where the incremental training enters into the picture. Ritualistic habituation of each exercise is a must for success. As an example, the 5 feedings of hay placed at different places in the round pen with her inside at liberty, is a great way to start the recognition of leadership of you by her. You simply follow her [out of the kicking range] from pile to pile, let her eat a portion and then ask her to move to the next pile. You will need short dressage whip to start the process. You spank YOUR leg or the ground while raising your head to prompt her moving her head until she moves ahead. After a few attempts, you will be able to lose the whip as she will be watching you as to when she should move. This is called " leading from behind" and is founded on the wild horse methodology. Don`t stop this exercise on a daily basis until you can`t get it wrong and your mare responds to your leadership without hesitation.
I wouldn`t worry too much about what you have done thus far with her, because I believe that you have raised your focus level with regard to building trust and she will "hook-on" to that. Mel and Miriam have given a wonderful direction to follow. Their commentaries will help you to leap "light years" if you continue to build the focus aspect in your relationship with horses.
Please continue the journey. You will learn much while helping your horses.
Bud --- eastern Washington state, USA
Tukachance
Well done with your lesson progress, remember quality, not quantity. Monty would much prefer you to work at a pace where you are learning rather than just whipping through them. It does help us to see where you are in your lessons though, so thank you for letting us know.
When horses are confined they understand they have limited choices, which is the sad nature of the horse and why so many put up with mishandling rather than try to get out of the situation. Realising they have limited choices is a big part of your learning with her and understanding where she feels happy to be with you in confinement is essential.
Re the dominance in the herd, as Bud says let her be, Em will not come to any harm by exerting her natural authority in the herd, the others will soon learn that she wants to lead them and will conform, in fact, if she is leader then she will be less likely to be kicked back at ;) . We have 9 horses in the herd from 8h to 15.2h and even though they have been with each other for over a year now those who decide to not listen to the hierarchy ones do get bitten or kicked out at now and then, it is totally natural and essential for their survival. I love dominant mares, the respect they earn from the herd is fascinating to watch and be part of, they are also more caring of their human handlers when treated with respect, let her be who she is and she will look after you when riding.
Look forward to reading more of your journey with Em.
Mel
x
To begin...when I went into the field, I changed my process. As I mentioned earlier, she always comes to meet me. In fact, she usually nickers! I can see her down in the field, lifting her head at every sound that may indicate the house door is opening. I love that!
Anyway, when I went into the field, I did not try to approach her this time. I stood quietly, at an angle and not looking at her eyes. She came willingly, as she always does, and was standing close enough that I could feel her breath on my arm. I did not try to touch her but only spoke quietly to her. I guess I would call it "sweet nothings." I then proceeded to walk to the barn. She followed at a distance of about 15 feet back.
After her morning feeding...which is very minimal due to so much pasture grass available...I put the Dually on and headed for the round pen. She was quite responsive in her following and stopping. My plan for the pen was to review the moving the hind quarters and then see if she would follow.
This time, I allowed a distraction for her. I let my other horse, Zipporah, out of her stall, as well, free to come to the pen if she chose. And, of course, she did. I actually expected the distraction to cause Em to be more concerned with Zippy than with me and was I surprised! Em kept her focus on what I was asking, even though I could certainly tell that she knew exactly where Zip was.
After the short review of moving the quarters, I removed the lead and lo and behold, she followed me! I walked in different sections and patterns and she stayed right there at my shoulder, stopping when I stopped.
Then, I wanted to see if she would continue to follow when I took off the Dually. At first, she walked away but then she came back. I didn't try to touch her or do anything other than walk around. She followed for a bit but then, apparently not seeing the need to do this and seeing her friend at the round pen gate, meandered off for a short visit with Zip.
I continued walking around near the center of the pen and she came past but this time she tossed her head a bit, didn't stop and her rear came into view! This is the way she shows her dominance to Zippy. (I only have the two horses with Zip being just slightly over 2 years old.) Em will toss her head and reach to bite Zip with actually no provocation, which is what a dominant horse will do. But, my problem is that I don't want to be bitten or kicked so I'm quite hesitant which I'm sure she knows and probably enjoys seeing me shirk a bit. I'm not sure how to handle this.
In reading Bud's suggestion above, I am going to try this for several days and see if that helps. It certainly sounds like a good idea. It will be interesting to see how she reacts. I don't see her as being "easily moved" from pile to pile but that's why I am at this forum...learning from those who know more than I. And, Mel, I agree with loving the dominant mares. I know that once Em and I establish my leadership, she is going to be just terrific. Or, I should say, more terrific than she already is! Yes, I love my Zippy, too, for who she is but Em is the one who seems to offer the most.
Today is Friday, so I will do the hay piles until Monday and then report back. I can't wait to see what happens.
Once again, I am so grateful for the time you are taking to teach me these good things. One day, I'll explain to Em, too, how gracious you have been.
First of all, this NOT an exercise that produces dust in the round pen. It is about the RELAXATION of grazing that horses experience as they munch on that first bit of green that they seemingly always seek. It is about honing in on your observation skills through focus and knowing when your mare is relaxed and has found her momentary place of comfort. brought about through her favorite past-time. These skills that I speak of will carry-over in almost every other form of horsemanship that you do with Em. So, I would strongly suggest that you prepare yourself mentally [with intention of thought on Em] before walking into the round pen. Timing is crucial here; and that is SET-UP by the pause before you take action. ie; after you direct Em into the round pen, you stay out, pause for whatever the time it takes for her to move to a pile of hay and to start munching. With your focus skills. read when she becomes relaxed and sinks into a comfort zone and then enter the round pen. This will get her attention and her ear will find your presence. Pause again until she relaxes, then and only then increase your intention of thought; asking her to move off of YOUR pile of hay with your MIND. If she does move, your intention of thought skills settle down around her and she is reading your energy. If she doesn`t move, your concentration should be strong and your chin would be down on your chest; her ear should still be on you, accompanied by her eye. You will increase the pressure for her to move by moving YOUR HEAD in an upward fashion. If she does not move, increase the pressure with a kiss or cluck [your choice]. If she still doesn`t move out to the next pile, up the pressure by swatting your leg with the dressage whip until she moves. Then pause for three to five minutes and repeat the choreographed dance. This dance is about SOFT LEADERSHIP and once confirmation takes place, she will see you in a whole different role. It will be up to you to keep the respect of that role alive for BOTH of you..
Good luck, and let us know how you two got on with this exercise.
Thank you Bud
Please read Bud's advice very carefully, the detail he has given is of utmost importance that you can remain safe.
I will explain to you what happened when Em reared whilst in the pen with you. It was not because Zippy was nearby, but how you were in the pen with her. I will use your description and expand it a bit more for you. I am detailing this out to you as you are learning fast, but fast is not always good. Monty always teaches 'slow is fast' building confidence between horse and handler first no matter how long it takes always has better rewards and trust than going too fast, which could put you in a dangerous situation.
I need you to understand a few things of what the horse is communicating so there is no confusion between you and Em. Em is a hierarchy horse it is very clear with your description, this also means she will defend and not run when put under pressure where she does not feel safe. Safety is of utmost importance for you and your horse. Please do not take my words below anything than my concern for you whilst in the round pen. I am a bit autistic and very dyslexic too so things do not always come out as planned. :/
continued walking around near the center of the pen, this is a predatory action, think of a predator walking around a larger herd of horses to create confusion so they break out and run so the weakest can be caught for dinner, this is what your walking around the center of the pen was doing in her mind, humans are predators most of us meat eaters so when we act in a predatory way in a confined area the horse will be looking for a way out. When in the pen and allowing her to relax, remain still until you wish her to move, take the time to relax and breath and see how you are feeling inside, only when you feel relaxed inside ask Em to move to the next haynet as described by Bud.
she came past but this time she tossed her head a bit, Em was showing her frustration and telling you to stop and move out of her space, she was finding the walking around threatening. What you did next would have instigated the rear so you need to think very carefully what you did when she was head shaking.
If this happens again, you need to become submissive before her so she sees you are not a threat, look to the ground and hold your head and shoulders slightly bowed low keeping alert to where her feet are only, this will immediately stop the head shaking preventing a rear as she will realise you are listening to her. Then breath and relax keeping your feet as still as possible, do not backup. Your breathing and relaxing will relax her, you might not feel relaxed inside, but you must show you are relaxing. She will go back to doing what she was before which will either give you chance to exit the round pen or practice breathing more. Only when you have relaxed move in an arch towards her head and make friends again, not stepping into her space until she says yes. As you watch Monty's lessons, you will see Monty become passive when horses become scared and reactive this passive action from us helps the horse feel secure. It is not always about humans moving the horse, but respect to how the horse view the things around them.
Em will toss her head and reach to bite Zip with actually no provocation Horses communicate with each other all of the time, horses communicate between 7-10 times faster than the untrained human eye can see, this means we miss 70% of the communication that horses have between each other, a look, a move of the head, a movement of the mouth or tongue and ears could have all that is required from Zippy to Em for Em to put Zippy back in her place. For Em it is an absolute necessity that every member of the herd listen to her if they do not then she will exert her leadership, which is all she is doing when she bites Zippy. A good way to learn to see how this happens is by video. This little video I did a couple of years ago will show you how fast they communicate with each other, something that was all over and done in just a few seconds has so much communication that I slowed it down to show what really happened. This is Chase the foal.. https://youtu.be/LJcII_VLIUw
my problem is that I don't want to be bitten or kicked so I'm quite hesitant which I'm sure she knowsIf you do something that your horse thinks you need a kick for, you will not have chance to think about it it will just happen. If a horse warns a kick then this is a warning that you are doing something they are not happy with they have no intention to harm you. The process of a kick or bite starts with a look and a lot more communicating, nips are a test of hierarchy be it with another horse or human. The kick or real bite comes when the horse has no option in its mind that they need to communicate louder because they are not being listened to or feel threatened in some way.
To handle this thought you need to understand that they will only kick or properly bite because of your actions first, which is why diaphragmic breathing as Monty teaches in the lessons is vital to help to keep you aware of your actions and calm and still. To be a leader with your horse you must learn not to hesitate, be in control of your feet and your horses. By watching Em with Zippy in the field especially what they do with their legs when situations happen you will be able to learn how to control your legs. Every leg movement has a meaning.
probably enjoys seeing me shirk a bit. We must not put human descriptions on situations, the psyche of the horse does not 'enjoy' in the sense we would. If you watch you've been framed, we enjoy watching people having silly falls or doing silly things. The horse does not see enjoyment the same way as us, when they see you shirk a bit, they see you drop in the rankings of the hierarchy, hesitation being one of the biggest issues I see when teaching owners to build a connection with their horse. When a person hesitates, the horse no longer sees you as a leader, horses need leadership and if we do not lead, then they will. If they start to lead and you shrink back, this is where your safety is compromised. When with Em and Zippy they are looking to you for leadership, the things you learn both in Monty's lessons and with help on the forum will help you become the leader your horses need for a safe trusting relationship.
I hope I was not too blunt, I can be when trying to explain what I see. Remember you have all the time in the world when with your horses, there is no timescale to build a trusting and happy relationship.
Be Safe!
Mel
x
I wanted to jot a little note to clear up two things: Em did not rear up when she was in the round pen. I said that I saw her rear...meaning I saw her rear end! Sorry for my poor description. So, she is not being as dangerous as my words must have indicated.
The other thing is that I will have to delay my work with piles of hay/feed as Bud had suggested. I tried yesterday but I have not gotten my good hay for the winter yet and she was not interested in what I had since there is so much good grass! She willingly went from place to place without even a suggestion from me. :-(
I will be out of two for a few days next week but will try to get something "good" that she wants so that I can begin that process upon return.
I have printed out your suggestions and I watched your video. All of this information helps. Do not ever think you are too blunt! I would never be offended by someone who is trying to teach me good things.
Thanks again for your suggestions.
I am not sure if you have a mobile phone, but what my daughter does so we can go over her learning is she sets the mobile up to record in the carrel whilst she is training the horses, she has a mobile phone holder that grips to the sides of the carrel. She does not get everything on video but enough for her to review what she does with the horses.
Look forward to seeing your progress with Em.
Mel
x
Since this was "so easy," I thought...OK, I may be going too fast on this but I'm going to remove one of the bowls so she would have only one choice. Again, no problem. After a couple of times moving her from the one bowl to the only other one (alternating sides to make sure she was getting the message all round, I decided to leave only one bowl. Here, I did get a bit of resistance. She wasn't sure she was going to leave. I don't have a riding crop but I had brought a short stick that I struck on my leg to let her know I meant business. She begrudgingly left the single pan, going to the edge of the round pen and looking back at me. She made no effort to knock me out of the leadership.
Frankly, I was delighted! I plan to repeat this on two additional days, just to be sure that she is willing to acknowledge that I am the herd leader. If this is not a correct process, I am most willing to adjust/adapt what I am doing, just say the word.
As I've stated before, when she has the Dually halter on, she is as mild as she can be. She leads well and has even learned that after we have stopped, if I step backward, she is to do the same. I call that pretty good. I feel I am ready to add additional lessons. We have worked on disengaging the hind quarters and she is pretty good at that, too.
I have a surcingle and some long leads so that seems to be the next step...teaching her to yield to the turn on the rein. I would love to ride her bitless. We'll have to see how things go. Once again, I am so grateful for any tips or changes that may be needed. Thanks, Bud, for your soft leadership idea. I am pleased at what I experienced today. The help I am finding her is invaluable. You are "Monty Juniors." :-)
T HIS WILL PAY HUGE DIVIDENDS LATER ON IN THE SADDLE.
I am very happy for you.
My best to all
Bud
The exercise that was accomplished above is based upon many different aspects of horsemanship that have been handed down through time by horse people that would not settle for the so-called normal approach to the handling of horses that produced much coercion and force. Monty stood against these methods and, for many years was, for the most part ,pretty much by himself . He did stand the test of time and we now have this on-line university. THANK YOU SIR.
I believe that our number one goal in horsemanship is to bring about the aspect of RESPECT from us to the horse and from the horse to us. The more relaxed state that we can achieve this in, the better the relationship. This where our soft leadership becomes the oil that lubricates the twists and turns of the training program. TIME cannot be a factor with the training of a horse. Learning to stay in the moment , while listening, will pay huge dividends.
Rosealike, when you next climb into the round pen with Emm and the different piles of hay, try asking him to move with just your thoughts. If, after a pause it does not work, use your head nod. This will soften your leadership with his movement even more. This will open the channel to the magic that our horses will offer us. This, will eventually, lead you two into a directional connection when riding. You need to practice this on the ground and really become good at focusing and asking for his focus.
Please keep us posted on your progress.
Bud
Bud