Hi Everyone,
I bought my first of the track thoroughbred in March of this year. He is rising 7 years old and was only every time trialed and not formally raced, but due to his race training, he has some of those traits typical to OTTs. Two things that I'd love your thoughts, experience and/or opinions on is:
First: he is heavy in my hands or hard in the mouth, as it is often referred to. Stopping isn't his favourite thing and I certainly don't trust that he will listen to my aids in an emergency situation. He likes to stick his nose in the air which I think is a response to being banged about in the mouth. He is 16.1hh and a lot of energy to harness!
Second thing: standing still to mount. As you can imagine he has never had to do that in his life before! I've always been one of those silly (too impatient) horse people whose horses have never really stood that well to be mounted, so I'd love to hear any training tips you might have!
What I've done with him so far. I have no round yard or access to one, so formal join-up isn't really going to happen. His paddock is over 2 acres and an odd shape, so paddock join up isn't a great option either. I can however walk towards him get his attention, walk away and most of the time he will follow. I suspect it is the hopeful promise of food that gets him though!
I got his Dually about a month ago and we have been working on ground manners and he is coming along nicely (he had none before!) and just today I began to teach his Monty's mounting block trick. In the saddle, he has learned to back up (that was pretty foreign to him lol) and he is pretty good with leg aids.
He's a nice boy who I am hoping will become a nice trail horse that I can take to my local riding club sometimes too. (Hmmm, now why was it I bought an OTT again?? lol ;) )
Anyway I hope all that made sense and I'd love to hear your thoughts! xo
Hi Rahni. Good that you've got a Dually. Why could you not fence off a corner of the 2 acres as a pen? Even a temporary fence. Ok, on grass Join up is harder but you could let him graze the grass right down. Join up is crucial to Monty's methods & given this guys previous experience crucial to your success. If I were you I would create a smaller space to work in & go back to basics. I'd get a copy of From My Hands To Yours - Monty's 'how to do it' book. I'd do Join up several times, once a day, teach the horse to be light in the Dually &, at least for a while, not bridle/put a bit in his mouth. The Dually is a bit less bridle. Make no mistake, this is a big journey I'm suggesting. It'll probably take more than a year to reform this horse to be the trail horse you really want. You'll need patience & understanding by the shed load. However, if you can meet his needs & deal with him every day calmly & fairly without violence & pain coming to him you'll get there. Believe me, it's worth all the effort. Remember, mistakes are an opportunity to learn - for you & the horse. If something doesn't work, stop, think it through & change the training to help it work. You can teach him to stop without even touching his mouth or by only using one rein. Once you get his trust & cooperation there are virtually no limits to the possibilities. Good luck & keep posting. I'm sure we will all be happy to share our thoughts. Cheers, Jo.
Hi Rahni, a friend of mine (Kelly Jewel) retrains racehorses, so has lots of experience, she's on Facebook as Racers to Riders. She has done some good work with ex racehorses and posts videos of them, which may help. She has done some work with Heather Moffet, I don't think she uses Montys methods as such but is always kind to her horses and will be a useful mine of information for you. A combination of her experiences and Montys methods could be a good thing, as she will have dealt with some of these problems, several times over. Patience and consistency are going to be key here I think.
Hi Rahni
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I love your honesty about your own impatience :-) Seems to me you have everything pretty well sussed out and that a lot of this is down to his upbringing so as requested, a couple of 'tips' that may help
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1. Standing still to mount: get a friend to help so that you can be on the mounting block and the other can operate the Dually and just go up and down the block (not getting on)/mess about with his back with your hands/pretend to get on/off and all the while the handler checks him with the Dually if he tries to move forward.
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2. When on board Kelly Marks likes to get Pie to take one step backwards first so that the idea of 'taking off' is not an option
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3. A thoughts - picking out his feet/trimming...in the UK some race yards do all 4 feet from the same side to save time pulling the foot through underneath so any sign that he's "funny" about his right front and back feet being done this may be a possibility
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4. Agree with Jo re: bitless as it sounds as if he has been hurt/sawn on the mouth
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5. Racehorses don't really 'stop' as such they learn to 'fizzle out' at the end of the race! Introducing a verbal command while gently riding towards a fence "whoa" and really relaxing as he was about to stop anyway will help him begin to make the connection that whoa and relax means stop. At first you need to get the timing right so that as he is coming to a natural stop you do it, then as he progresses you move further away from the fence and then into an open space so that the cue informs the behaviour - at first the behaviour will inform the cue.
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Good resource from Tiggy!
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Kicki - if I remember from an old thread I think you explained about how racehorses are told to run faster by the jockey shortening the reins. This can be confusing if we 'shorten' reins expecting the horse to stop - you can see why he wouldn't :-) hence no. 5 may be useful.
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Hope that helps a bit
You have an awesome memory, vicci! :) That is correct, or as far as I was told back in the 80's anyway when I rode race horses turned brood mares turned riding horses. Wish I could remember if we were ever told how to actually stop them!
Rahni, you've already been given excellent advice.Can't think of anything to add, except to stress the part about going back to basics and start over with him. Think of him as a child who has learned to speak a second language already, and you want it to learn sign language as well. :)
Mates Farrier has an ex racer, now you've jogged my memory Vicci, he finds that if he drops the contact the horse will slow down/stop. And thinking about it jockeys do release the reins at the end of a race..
Wow, thank you for all your responses!
Jo, I will fence off a smaller portion as you suggest. I've done that in the past with no luck, but that was because I was trying to gentle two very wild 10hh ponies who can escape from EVERYTHING!! But at 16.1hh I think I will have less of a problem with him squeezing out between the stings lol. I will just build it high so he can't jump over it! So thank you for the reminder. I have a copy of My Hands to Yours and will revisit it.
My husband and I had been toying with the idea of just riding him in the dually, so thank you for reiterating that for me. Yes lots of patients!
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I think I've found your friend's group on Facebook Tiggy. I'll let you know how I go :) And loosening the reins, I will test him out and see how he responds.
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Vicci, I love your way of making paragraphs! Love your advice. you're right, race horses are never really asked to stop in the traditional way. I did a months worth of track work 15 years ago and it's coming back to me now. Thank you for your reminder! I have been working on asking him to back up when I fist mount. We must have watched the same Kelly Marks video :)
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I have another quirk of Gimble's (that's his name btw. My husband named him lol) that I would love your thoughts on: He doesn't like his head being touched. He appears to be head shy when first looking at him, but he doesn't seem to be afraid of our hands, he just doesn't want us to touch his face. Thoughts?
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Thanks again everyone! xo
Hi Rahni, I cannot claim credit for the paragraph style, I noticed someone else do it and thought ah, what a great idea! :-)
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Head not being touched..as horses cannot see things when they are very close it can be scary to see hands/other things approaching; the setting of their eyes (side of head rather than front) makes depth perception/accommodation difficult so it takes a lot of trust for them to let us mess with their heads (bot physically and psychologically speaking!!)
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Try approaching side on, with the back of your hand rather than front on. If he moves away stay with him, then as soon as he stops move away...Advance/Retreat.
Rahni, I messaged Kelly that you maybe in contact, and she's more than happy to help, she's thinking of doing some videos on schooling the ex racer, to help others. I'm a member of the group although I don't have an OTT.
Thanks Tiggy :)
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I'll let you all how we are going. It has been school holidays here and we've been away, so I haven't done anything with Gimble in the last couple of weeks. This will be our first "normal" week back, so I will keep you updated. I plan to post some videos on the facebook uni group too.
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Thanks everyone for your advice so far! xx
Hi Rahni,
I'm late coming into this thread, so maybe you're already solving your problems through the great advice from other posters. But if not.....
As far as mounting. In the USA at least, racehorses are usually mounted on the walk in the shedrow or sometimes are mounted in the stall and out they go, often led by their groom for quite a few steps--or a full turn while the rider adjusts stirrups/girth etc. Given that, what's often best when training the OTTB, is too NOT make them stand (all by yourself) at a mounting block straightway-- but instead have a ground person halt them at the block-- you get on-- and then the ground person walks them right off-- no stopping.
This would mimic what they are used to. Do this a few times and THEN have the ground person halt them after you are onboard (using your aides too) quite a few paces beyond the mounting block. After that-- each time you get on-- the ground person (and you) can shorten the halting distance from the mounting block until there is none.... and sure enough they will learn to stand patiently at the block while you get on. Eventually you won't need a ground person.
I have always found it's better to ask for a little at a time rather than a lot all at once when dealing with old habits/ training that are appropriate to a horse who has come right from the racetrack or a racing barn/farm.
My new OTTB 'Dragon' didn't like his face being touched-- was a bit head shy too unless I had a bridle in my hand. He was fine to bridle. So....I just didn't touch his face!
I respected his dislike. Besides, there really was no reason for me be all touchy feely with his face. What purpose did it serve the horse? None. Especially since he hated it.
BUT....to overcome his fear of having his face touched, I began using my head (literally) as if I was another horse rubbing on him. No hands-- just my head-- rub rub rub.
Once trust was established between us -- through many other ways too-- he began letting me touch his head with my hands-- rub his eyes which he loves, etc.
I don't know--- I just never want to take too much 'away' from a new horse right off the bat. I let them keep their quirks-- I respect the quirks-- there is a reason for them-- and by slowly using 'horse language' as best I can, the quirks disappear.
Hi Everyone,
Thank you Katselasdan :) I like your idea of having some one on the ground for mounting. Interesting thoughts on the head thing. I will give that a go. I have noticed that he is happy to have me rest my cheek on his. Just no hands!
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I love reading everyone's tips and experiences!
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I have been very slack and haven't done any real work with him at all last month. I have been called into work a fair bit, plus we've had a birth/death anniversary and with the usual busy day-to-day stuff with 4 kids.....the poor ol' horse gets shunted to the bottom of the list!
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Also, he keeps throwing his two front shoes, so he can't be ridden. He over reaches, so we had rubber bell boots on to begin with and then he torn those of course and in the mean time pulled off both front shoes within the first 2 weeks of him being shod. The farrier didn't want to know about it by the time the second one came off (mainly because of his time constraints), so my husband being the clever man he is, went and bought some proper nails and re-shod the second shoe himself. We have a sturdier pair of bell-boots called Brumbies (made out of a wetsuit type material, but tougher. I don't know the name of it.) on now, so hoping they last!
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In between all that I took your advice Jo and tried him in just the Dually. He went a lot better, less champing on the bit and more relaxed. He is a bit rough at the moment of course, but with patience, I'm sure he will get more responsive.
We bought him a bit-less bridle too, but the dually works the best! I wonder if Monty would make a leather version that could be used more "acceptably" at shows and competitions.......??
lol that would be no "champing on the bit!" A horse can't champ "less" on a bit that is not there!!
I love your approach Dana - a true 'give an take' partnership; too many people get hung up on the fact that the horse has "won" if it doesn't let you do something.
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Rahni - sounds like great progress with the Dually, at the risk of asking a stupid question....does he have to have shoes on his front feet? Is the over reaching the reason he has them, and if so what effect does it have on his feet? I'm just asking for curiosity/learning :-)
Hi Vicci,
Nothing wrong with your question xx
Yes Gimble does need shoes and particularly on his front feet. He limps the minuet he looses a shoe on the front lol! His feet crack very easily too. He over reaches in-spite of having shoes. His feet were in bad condition when we got him in March. Our farrier is working on it. I think this is his 3rd shoeing since we've had him. The reason he lost this second shoe, was that his "Houdini" pony paddock mates got out and Gimble chucked an absolute wobbly.
It sounds a bit of a cyclical problem Rahni unless I'm misreading...his feet are weak...shoes have little to anchor on to.....shoes fly off....he limps etc. The problem with shoes is they can impede the circulation and flex to the hoof (one of the reasons they can sometime be a bit limpy when the shoes come off, it's like having pins and needles!!) so the foot gets weaker etc etc. What would you think to trying him barefoot for a year?
Have you heard of "Shoe secure"? It's a kind of "slipper" in plastic that fits over the heals and is fastened with two flat-headed special studs in the shoe.
I've used it on my horse this summer and it works really well except it takes a bit of tinkering as you need to remove them before riding and check the nuts every day.
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Link: http://www.shoesecure.com/
Correction and clarification! When I wrote "check the nuts" I did mean the studs, nothing else! :D
haha Kicki....yes we get it :-) By the way, It was nice to 'meet' you on phone the other day but we didn't get a chance to say hi properly...I think I may have been talking to much :-(
I'm with vicci on the 'barefoot' idea for your horse. Sounds like your boy needs to grow some true hoof-- healthy hoof. And more often than not, you cannot really grow natural true hooves/soles/frog, etc. while shoes are on. Shoes can impact the hoof in so many negative ways. And it sounds like you're in a loosing battle trying to keep shoes on your new guy anyway.
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If you do go the barefoot route you will need boots for him while he transitions-- a pair for riding and a pair for turnout time. I just transitioned my recent OTTB (Dragon) from shoes to barefoot and it IS a process, especially if you want to keep riding.
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And you will be able to ride without shoes. You just need the right boots AND a 'natural trimmer' a person who is very experienced in properly trimming the barefoot horse with a mustang roll, not pairing out any sole and letting the bars grow etc. depending on your horse's foot needs.
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There are many great boots out there -- don't know if I'm allowed to post the brands that I would recommend (???)-- but if I am, let me know and I will give you a rundown on all the ones I use and/or have used with great success.
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There are also many good hoof hardeners out there that do a marvelous job of hardening the sole to relieve tenderness and help to prevent cracks/chips.
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But the bottom line in creating healthy hooves is diet. Low NSC (non-structural carbohydrate) no sugar-- no corn. Instead: high/fat- fiber. And also 'movement' is very important. Horses need to move in order to get circulation going in their feet-- so plenty of turn-out/riding/round penning at liberty-- is a good thing.
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It isn't easy to achieve a true barefoot 'iron hoof'. It takes patience and great effort--and touch-up trims need to be done at two to three weeks instead of 5-6. Boots will be your horses's best friend in the interim.
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Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now. I guess you can tell I'm an advocate of 'going barefoot' lol!
Vicci,
Nice to met you too! Yes, it would've been nice to get more acquainted but no worries. I thought you brought up some very important things. Besides, I came into this on very short notice and hadn't had the time to come up with something intelligent to say anyway. :D
I'll take time and respond more thoroughly soon, but in the mean time thanks for the info on bare foot! That is definitely something I will look into. I will run it by our farrier, just to hear his opinion, out of interest. I am not one to be put off by "experts" though! ;)
Thanks again. Love this forum and all of you here! A collective fountain of knowledge :) xx
Can I just stick my oar in, barefoot is fine but remember that your farrier can also do the same job, and they have trained for however long and have insurance etc.. I saw an ad on fb a few weeks ago advertising a 10 week course on how to become a barefoot practitioner... No doubt there are some very good trimmers out there but check they are qualified and have insurance if there's a problem.
Me again :)
I have decided to try barefoot with our boy, but he will need boots at least to begin with when ridden.
I'd love any recommendations of brands etc.
Thank you xx
Hi Rahni, are you on the Facebook Uni page? Would love to see photos of your boys feet and as he progresses, or connect with me facebook.com/mhetfield
Working with rescues they generally come with bad feet. From watching the Ada gates series join up with a farrier and a few other good training videos on barefoot trimming I took to repairing and trimming my horses feet myself after our Shetland was made lame on all 4 feet by a farrier. I've not looked back since!
The first 6 weeks will need the most care, but you'll start to notice by about 6 months great improvements. Make sure the farrier doesn't over rasp the hoof wall in trying to get rid of flares as this can hinder hoof repair.
I've never had to use boots on rescues, but they're not ridden.
Glad you're going barefoot, your horse will thank you ;)
Mel
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Just re read through all of the posts again, one thing I felt missing was rider relaxing. Remember Rahni that the jockey would have been geared up with energy for the race, when you get on him remember to breath long and slow and relax all the way down so your energy relaxes the horse. This will reward him for standing still before you walk off.
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Hi Rahni, I just had to jump in here. I`ve completed a barefoot trimming school course from Pete Ramey a couple of years ago to help my horses grow out great natural hooves. I now trim professionally in an effort to support my herd of Arabians. The entire horse world is taking a hard look at barefoot trimming. I believe that we have been lied to for generations that horses need to have shoes.. They do not, at least most of them. The first months after the shoes are removed, are by far, the most challenging.. After that everything changes in a big way for the horse. Your main objective here is to grow in a well-connected hoof that simulates the wild horse hoof. With good frog pressure and proper trimming, your horse will be dancing about. A tip to help harden the souls for barefoot riding is to lay pea gravel in his stall and around the watering trough.. I believe that are many certified barefoot trimmers in your area. If your horse finds himself unable to be under saddle barefooted after six months of this therapy, you have many choices of boots that can be used. I hope this helps you and your horse. Bud
Bud, have you seen the video lessons on join up with the farrier with Ada Gates? It was that series plus a bad run of farriers that led me to trimming my own horses feet. Best decision I've ever made.
Mel
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Hi Rahni,
My favorite riding boots for my barefoot horses are Easy Care Epics.
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(hope I am allowed to post a Brand Name recommendation ??? Disclaimer: I'm NOT affiliated with Easy Care in any way. I just like their boots.)
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I have tried practically every boot on the market and I keep coming back to these as my GO TO boot. They stay on so well that I even use them for turn-out--- and they last forever! Really well designed with heavy duty material. Check out the Easy Care website. Loads of info. Loads of different boots to choose from--each with their own tread for various terrain, etc.
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In my experience, I've found that it's best to order up one size IF your horse's feet fall between sizes. You can add an additional pad on the inside to make up the difference.
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These boots are an investment $$ -- but any top of the line boot will be such. I wouldn't bother with lower priced wannabe boots. They will fail. Fall off.
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Another good brand to look into is Renegade.
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If you do decide to go with an Easy Care EPIC boot: They are not EASY to put on if your horse has flares that are growing out/being addressed with each new trim. The change in hoof size from trim cycle to trim cycle will make the boot application a challenge. Lots of clever jiggling and loosening of the tighteners WILL get them on, though! S0, it's best to do mini trims (light rasping) half way between cycles to keep the flares in check.
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My natural trimmer-- a Pete Ramey disciple--showed me how to do this, thus keeping the mustang roll in effect, the flares under control--not just for boot fitting, but more importantly for the health of my horse's feet. One good thing is that the Epics are forgiving when your horse has a strangely shaped hoof. The ski boot type latch on the front (along with the wire) that tightens the boot around the hoof wall, really works! Very adjustable. Allows for a tight fit! No rub spots--no problems! Happy horse!
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Good luck! :))))
Katselasdan, that`s great information, and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. I also find that the short cycle trims are the way to go. When this is done, we approach the condition of the wild, horse hoof more closely and the horse is habituated more frequently to being trimmed. It`s a win,win for everybody. Mel, after many years of struggle with farriers, I too came to that same conclusion and educated myself. Also, the best decision that Iv`e made . Bud