Forum


Monty Roberts Equus Online University
Horse Training Video Instruction Program

Learn all about Equus • Dually Halter • Shy Boy Mustang • Jumping Horses
• Story of a Horse Whisperer • Riding Horsemanship • Dressage Horses • Willing Partners
• Horse Training • Round Pen Lessons • Performance Horses • Join-Up

← back

Horse Behavior and Training

My first horse - Bjron - behaviour issues

Hello!
Hello everyone,

Bjorn came in the our family 2 weeks ago. We are dog trainers and future veterinarians, but with horses we have 0 knowledge. It is our first horse, he is a 9 months old and was kept tied all his life until now. He was for the first time outside the barn without his mother and without beating (I think). He is very head shy. The first days were pretty ok, I kept him tied for another 3 days and I was walking him twice per day. He had and still has some moments of panic, especially that there are a few dogs that bark at him, but... After these 3 days I let him loose in his paddock and the real problems began. He is more and more protective in his paddock, he tried to kick me twice since yesterday just for being there to feed him - I didn't had these problems until now - and also his biting issue is escalating. When he arrived he was biting very rarely and very soft, now he bites often and more powerful. Also when I walk him outside (leading) he is biting me more and more. 
He also came with a young calf form that farm. The calf is around 10 months old and they are inseparable, like if I go outside with one of them, the other breaks the door of his barn to go outside as well and they try to mate with each other (I know that this is impossible, but still the drive to do it exist). I think that this can be one of the horses behavior problems? - regarding the young cow in heat? 
Outside the horse is free to run, I don't lead him for one week, I just let him loose. 
What can I do with him at this age to temper him? 
JoHewittVINTA
Please upload your photo 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed 650 lessons completed
Hi Vlad. Welcome to the forum. I believe you to be a young person so my first thought is you have come to the right place for help. You will need infinite patience as there is no quick fix - Bjron is terrified. He's lost his Mum, his home & his security. All he has left is his equally young & frightened friend & YOU. Unfortunately, it's possible you represent the thing that has caused his problems - not least being forced into a transporter. Two weeks isn't a long time. I have raised 2 youngsters, Kirk rising 4 years & Holy Moley, my filly rising 3 years. They are confident, boisterous, in your face individuals but neither would kick a human. However, they have known me from birth & have never been abused - even if I get angry (which I shouldn't but we all have times of excess stress) they show no fear & stay close by. Your first priority is TRUST. Spend quality time with Bjron, just rubbing his neck & shoulders with your hand & gently scratching those areas. Don't attempt to teach him, just concentrate on becoming his safe place. As you approach him avert your eyes whilst keeping him in sight. Looking directly at his eyes means 'move away'. Before you even get close to him, like outside the barn or field, take a really deep breath & then exhale totally - you'll feel more calm & he will read that in you. Stay calm & soft with him but not weak. Be aware of his mood, watch his ears. If he tries to bite or kick move his feet, repeatedly until he acknowledges you. My babies were about 5 months old when each of them kicked me, very gently. I bumped them with my hip to move their feet & each one, on about the fifth repeat, looked at me as if to say "you're really not happy with that, are you"! That was it for them, I've never had to repeat the lesson. Bjron will probably not be so easy because of his previous experiences & he is a little older & has probably found defending himself has some value. NEVER use pain - it's WRONG & you will have a damaged relationship as a result. However, you MUST be his LEADER, his SAFE PLACE. If you can, spend 7 - 10 minutes twice a day, in a fairly quiet place, just being with him. He can wear a halter & longline at first but don't tie him up. He MUST have choice. If he moves away from you, bring him gently back to you. You are in charge. You could bring his cow friend into these rubbing, scratching sessions as cows love it too. You are aiming to become leader of the herd. For Bjron to trust you, you need to work to trust him & clearly right now you have some serious concerns. Stay safe, watch his eyes & ears for signs of relaxation & reward that generously. Stay positive! You can turn his life around but just now you need to be his friend. Keep us updated & we will do all we can to help you both. Cheers, Jo. 
Vlad - Bjorn
Hello!
Thank you JoHewittVINTA. This was the answer I need it. So for now I don't need to ask him nothing but trust. 
I'm patience person when it comes to animals, dogs learned me this. I have a lot of experiences in dog training, but as Monty said also, the horses are prey and have a different behavior that I still try to understand. 

I am not into using pain into animals. I have done some rehabilitation with some very aggressive  dogs and still didn't use painful methods. I like to think that I am using positive reinforcement, like I am rewarding positive behavior and ignore the negative one. 

I also want a horse trainer to come and guide me, but here in Romania until know I found trainers that told me that horses that bite and kick must be beaten hard 'just to know who is the boss'. - I didn't do it with the dogs and certainly  I won't do it with Bjorn.

So, the cow is not a problem, the kicking is not a real problem is he only tried, but very 'gently', I can give it time just for neck rubbing, but what do I do with biting as this behavior is escalating because I just ignored him? 
Miriam (Holland&Germany)
Hello! 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed 650 lessons completed
Hi Vlad,
Welcome to the forum! From what I read above, you seem to have the right mentality to become a great veterinarian and horsetrainer! I think Jo gave you some very good advice, have a lot of patience and be very aware of your own inner tension. Deep breathing will help you and your youngster! Give a nice sigh before you step into his paddock...
Now the biting: I guess in Romania you'll have some kind of cold winter like all of us, so this could be the season that will help you. Put on thick clothes, many thick sleeves will protect your arms, a double coat will help you not to worry about a bite or two. Not that you want him to bite, you might even let him find your covered elbow, when he tries to bite you, but with thick covering you'll not have to worry about being hurt. This way he'll find out that he's not impressive to you. So let him bump into your elbow and continue doing what you did.
Young male horses seem to have the tendency to show their teeth, just make it uninteresting for him with you.This is their way to show their dominance. We don't want to enter that discussion with them, you were looking for his trust! Work on that and a lot of issues will take care of themselves!
Please consider this forum as a deep well of knowledge and advice, come to it whenever you feel like it, we're here to help and learn from eachother! 
Keep the good work going, and keep us posted!
Miriam
JoHewittVINTA
Please upload your photo 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed 650 lessons completed
Hi. All colts are more mouthy than fillys - it comes from the need to protect his mares & his breeding rights in the wild. It's an unwanted behaviour but, in the interest of allowing the young animal to fully investigate his world, I chose to follow a midway path with Kirk. He's nearly 4 & he licks & gently mouths my hand, often holding my fingers in his mouth. No fractures yet! His sister is the same but to a lesser degree of wanting to hold. Monty uses a gentle tap with your toe on the horses shin to block off biting. I tried something less - I blew raspberries at Kirks nose (blowing air through closed lips to make a noise). In a single session, lasting 10 or 12 minutes (eventually I got a really dry mouth & couldn't continue so if you try this have a drink handy) Kirk improved at least 75%. Interestingly, Humphrey, the now gelded sire of my youngsters, came to me as a really repressed 2 year old 7 years ago. He'd been starved, beaten & kept in complete darkness when he'd started showing interest in mares nearby. Eighteen months ago I wrongly trusted a third party to start Humphrey under saddle, at the age of 7 - long story, can be found on this forum. After a week I bought Humphrey home as I was appalled by their treatment of him. My friendly, happy cob stood in the middle of his stable completely disengaged from humans - 5 years wrecked in 8 days! Over the next 24 hours I spent lots of time rubbing & scratching Humphrey in exactly the way I suggested Vlad should with Bjorn & finally he reached out & lipped my sleeve, something he'd never done before. It was a very tentative action on his part & I rubbed his head as a reward. His trust is coming back. I can sit on him now but he's still a work in progress. However, the mouthing my sleeve remains although he's never used his teeth. This suggests that allowing an acceptable level of mouthing is important to their communications - watch a herd interacting together. I have been bitten by horses & like any animal attack, you don't see it coming, it's a blitz attack. My guys are totally different to that. I'd describe it as being nibbly in s friendly way. They certainly don't dominate me but I often find myself at the centre of a rugby scrum like huddle in the field. Cheers, Jo.
Vlad - Bjorn
Hello!
Thank you for you useful information and experience shared with me. I think also that now I will allow some level of mouthing because I saw that there is something natural especially at their age. At first he did exactly the same, Jo Hewitt, mouthing and holding one of my fingers in his teeth, but without allowing me to pull it out. :) I then tried the Monty suggestion with my foot, but he got pretty scared and didn't do it after. Patience. Time. I will give him a lot of time. I put today some videos with him since day 1 until today. I will share the video from 1 hour ago with him and Aida (the cow). In the video you can see exactly his behavior that is almost exactly the same when he is only with me.

Another thing that I observed since last night: when I am down, picking something (water bucket, a hand of hay, tie my shoes, etc) he is coming fast to me biting and trying to come over me. Is this the same behavior that he has with Aida or is it something else? Why is doing this only when down?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x594c6q_bjorn-biting-aida_animals
Vlad - Bjorn
Hello!
And yes, I know, the halter for Aida is in the way to us with the postal office since Monday. I don't like the chain also. Bjorn was tied with chain also when he arrived.
And Miriam, thank you for suggestions, it is very true that they sense your tension, exactly like dogs. I am working at it. If you can see the video from my first day, when a was pretty lefty with leading Bjorn (I know now, it was too soon), exactly at the end I stopped with my shoulders square and he then tried to flee. I was too confident, after that I became to soft. I try to find a middle pathway. :)

Thank you guys.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x594co8_first-day-with-bjorn-first-time-for-me-handling-a-horse_animals
Kicki -- Sweden
Hello! 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed
Hi Vlad,
I'm not sure I can be of much help, but I will offer a few observations and thoughts. 

First off, Bjorn is a pretty little colt! But he looks small for a 9 month old - unless of course he's a pony. Do you know what kind of breed he is?

Secondly, I reacted quite a bit to him being tied up all his life. That is no way to raise a foal so I am glad you got him away from there. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of his issues are a result of that.

Cows and horses are both herd animals so I'm not surprised they seek each others' company when they have lost everything else they know.
It's good he isn't alone, but cows and horses, however similar at some points, do have differences in their language and behaviour.  I can't help but think - although I realize this is probably not something you can do - that both of them need a companion of their own species. Preferably slightly older to teach them manners and correct body language. Or else, this will be up to you.

Watching  him with Aida, it feels more like he chasing her in a stressed out manner, rather than being playful. He is definitely trying to dominate her with the bites across the withers and to the leg (to get her to buckle down) I'm not too sure Aida appreciates this. Cows don't do that to each other, but I'm thinking she doesn't know much else, and is desperate to have a herd, so she will put up with it.
Be careful, though! One day, she might get back and horns can cause ugly damages. You could also end up with an aggressive cow if she feels harried and nervous.

If he is doing the same to you, it is most likely for the same reasons: playful or seeking dominance. Some colts just love to "pick a fight" - it's in their DNA! Maybe you should consider gelding him as soon as possible? That will take some "oompf" out of him.

When my colt was at his worst with biting, I had to resort to put drops of Tabasco on the arms of my jacket and the lead rope. Not really something I recommend but the very smell of it stopped him from trying so we could move on and past that.

JoHewittVINTA
Please upload your photo 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed 650 lessons completed
Hi Vlad. Good videos. Bjorn is handsome & Aida is pretty - most British cows have more white, on their bodies. Kirk was born in a livery yard, where about 20 owners kept about 25 horses. He quickly got used to humans as everyone came to see him each day & it wasn't unusual for 8 to 12 people to be crowded around the door. When he was about a week old he was very bored in their large stable & would put his front legs over my back whenever I bent down. This was really cute but in the back of my mind I knew he would quickly grow to the point where I would be seriously injured. Fortunately, once he & Bella were given access to an outside pen he stopped mounting me although I did see him resting over his Dads back later that year. I took a photo which I called "good view from up here Dad"! Sometimes just changing something can alter behaviour & no other actions are required. I'm a big fan of the Dually head collar & whilst it is expensive it's worth it's weight in gold, when used properly. With youngsters especially, first use gently & only increase pressure if it's ignored. In other words, you're asking not demanding. For me, that's a key phrase, to ask not demand. Hopefully Vlad, you will soon start to see changes in the way Bjorn reacts to you. Cheers. Jo.
Vlad - Bjorn
Hello!
Hey guys. Since last time I was here 3 weeks ago, I let Bjorn alone, without demanding anything from him. I tried from time to time to push my elbow when he wanted to snap from behind, but nothing besides that. I let him outside everyday when the weather was good, I groomed him, I pet him, put the halter on and off.

Kicki I don't think he has any breed in him or if he has maybe you guys can help me discover. :) Anyway this doesn't matter for me. He is now around 160 cm. He is just a horse, like the people around here say and of course I will neuter him.

The biting is now his main activity with us, he is nibbling a lot also. Overall our relationship improved a lot, but we are far from being there were I want. I know it sounds funny this paragraph, but the biting is the only real issue, everything else I think I can manage with him. :)

Today I uploaded another video for you to watch and say your opinion about us.
Tell me what you think.

Bjorn desensitivation

Please look at 5:20 to see his biting habit. 

JoHewittVINTA
Please upload your photo 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed 650 lessons completed
Hi Vlad. I've just watched the video. I'm impressed with the way Bjorn respects your space & follows you but I have some points to raise too. You need a longer lead line. Bjorn can control your feet (move you) & in Equus that means he is in charge. Also, I'm pretty sure sometimes you have the rope wrapped around your hand. This is very dangerous- I have a deformed finger from getting tangled up & also you could be dragged & seriously injured. Bjorn is desperate to please you! Trust is slow because you are asking too much too soon; you need to be more incremental in your training. Put your plastic directly onto a longer stick. A garden cane is ideal. Tape some padding to the other end of the cane. Wrap elastic bands round the plastic so Bjorn can get used to it as small & less intimidating first. Calmly & slowly bring the padded end of the cane towards Bjorn, at his withers. Hold your long line loosely in your hand so if he runs you can let it slide. Watch his eyes, ears & body language. As soon as he shows tension bring the cane away. Wait for a count of 3 & repeat, always reading his reactions. Very quickly you will be able to rub the padded end on his withers. Gradually, as Bjorn relaxes, move the rubbing pad over a wider & wider area of the horse, continuing to rub gently but firmly. You may get licking & chewing as Bjorn realises there is no danger for him in this exercise. Once the cane & pad are accepted turn the cane around & repeat the whole thing with the small plastic end & when that is fully accepted you can remove the bands & repeat with the floppy plastic. Both my youngsters & their sire when he was younger, fully accepted plastic in a single session using this approach. There are lessons on the Uni showing this method so study them. Be calm & slow down your movements - you move to quickly just now. Working with youngsters is exciting however being excited is counter productive. Horses learn better in a calm environment. A good tip is to take a deep breath & exhale as much as you can. You will instantly feel more calm & Bjorn will read your calmness & respond likewise. We look forward to hearing about your progress. Cheers, Jo.
Vlad - Bjorn
Hello!
Thank you very much Jo and Hewitt! I really appreciate your suggestion. It makes a lot of sense. And yes, my line is only 2 m long and yes it was wrapped around my hand. 
I will do exactly what you told me tomorrow and I will try to film it from the beginning. 

What about the biting when he follows? Why are you so sure he wants to please me? What are the signs?

JoHewittVINTA
Please upload your photo 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed 650 lessons completed
Hi Vlad. You know horses are flight animals. When they see something scary they run away. Bjorn, even though he was frightened by the aggressively flapping plastic, was trying so very hard to stay with you. Watch your own video & study his body language. When you stop flapping he comes close to you & not just because you pull on his halter. When you release him he still stays with you. Practice the breathing tonight so you're as prepared as possible for tomorrow. Have a longer line & lay it on the ground so if you do pressure him too much he can move a short distance away as it slides through your hand then simply bring him back to you. Resume the lesson at a point where Bjorn was accepting & gradually build up his experience. I expect you will find Bjorn grows with confidence in a very short time & you will both benefit in the greater mutual trust that will follow. Now, about the biting: stallions fight to gain & retain breeding rights. They fight by kicking & biting - very hard & often risk serious injury to defend their herd. A horse can bite off a human finger! However, this is not what Bjorn is trying to do to you. He is playing, albeit somewhat roughly. That is, unless he knows you have treats for him in your pocket. My youngsters are very mouthy at certain times when they know there are treats. I feed treats at certain times & once that time has past they stop nibbling. You know dogs. There is a huge difference between an attack & playful mouthing. Bjorn is just much bigger & stronger than any dog. I let my youngsters play & they are super confident with me. However, I'm careful to keep the situation in control. If they get too pushy or strong I reprimand them, usually by crouching down, looking directly into their eye & advancing on them. They don't like this & stop. With a young dog, his mother will bite their ear if they are bad. You will know if you hit a young dog it will avoid being near you for hours but if you take his ear between your thumb & forefinger & sqweeze quite hard (because they have done something really bad not just a minor sin) they will squeal & then spend hours trying to be close to you & have your attention. If my youngsters are wearing their halter I back them up to curb nibbling but that needs to happen instantly & without anger. It's a balance because I like their natural behaviour but not everyone is as accepting of nibbly horses. I would never condone acceptance of aggressive behaviour of any kind but with mine it is just playful. Good luck tomorrow. Cheers, Jo.
bahila73
Hello! 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed
Hi Vlad;  I watched your video on you desensitizing your young horse.  A suggestion that i would have would be that you slow all of your movements down especially with the plastic bag.  From a scale of 1-10, you are operating at an 11..  The desensitizing needs to be done incrementally from dragging the bag in front of your boy to entice his curiosity and then to holding up for him to smell, then taking it away to lock in the curiosity.  If you will approach him in that manner, he will desensitize himself in short order.  The over the top flailing of the sack should not come until the horse is SOLID on all of the gradual steps that lead up to his complete acceptance of the sack.  That means rubbing it all over his back and under his belly and between his legs.   Remember, horses are naturally very curious.  We, as trainers, will help ourselves greatly to enlist that natural approach when developing the relationship .  He looks like he is really trying to please you.  BE HIS REFUGE OF SAFETY.

Hope that helps you

Bud

Miriam (Holland&Germany)
Hello! 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed 650 lessons completed
Hi Vlad,
We can be so grateful for the new tool on this Uni, being able to give links to video's!
This way it was possible to see you work with Bjorn and give even more specific advice, as  Kicki, Jo and Bud did above.
Overall I think you should bring in far more quiet into your training, it's never a match or a  fight... even if Bjorn is still growing, we could never want to enter a discussion of 'who wins' into our horsework. What you're looking for is his trust in you!
Trust must be earned by setting up clear rules and clear rewards for good behavior.
Tools are as good as the hands that hold them, this goes for horsetraining too.
Your hands are going to show the horse when he did something 'right', by releasing the pressure on the leadline. When he is reacting to your stimulus, keep the pressure up.
But as soon as he stands still, release the pressure. You'll have 0,3-3 seconds for your release, which means 'immediately', otherwise your horse might associate it with the wrong behavior. But to set him up for succes, you should start with a very small stimulus and then increase it.
Give him the chance to do it right...Trust your horse to behave like you want him to, trust is a two-way-street!
Did you watch Monty's lessons with "Lauki, on tour", here on this Uni?
These lessons might give you a lot of information about 'pressure and release', watch them over and over, evertime you'll see something you didn't notice before.
Please keep us posted!
Miriam

JoHewittVINTA
Please upload your photo 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed 650 lessons completed
Hi Vlad. Where have you been? I'm interested in your interactions with Bjorn. Hopefully you've not had a dramatic experience. I'm hopeful you're not injured. A young one like Bjorn really means no harm.  Where have you got to, what advice do you need - this is your first horse so clearly you want to be advised by ones with experience. We are here for you! Just ask! Cheers Jo.