Hi Everyone
Well, I have some questions - sorry if they might have already been answered somewhere on the forum, but here goes. I have two geldings who are paddocked together. Personality wise they are like chalk and cheese. The younger of the two is 8 years old and is a highly strung anglo-arab crossbreed, the other is a 16 year old ex trekking standardbred who is pretty safe and solid, if a bit grumpy and aloof at times. The older ons is the paddock boss. The younger one is still a bit headshy but is getting a lot better, and now I can rub his head all over slowly and he loves a good scratch along his mane and on the withers. Sometimes when I give him a scratch he starts to try and groom me back, nudging me gently with his nose and nibbling the side of my leg with his lips - only lightly, never very hard. The questions is - do I discourage this in case it turns to biting? If I push him away, will it break the bond we are building? When horses groom each other it is usually a reciprocal thing, you never see one horse grooming another whilst not allowing it to be reciprocated. If I push hishead away won't he get confused and think I can't read his language?
The older horse hates being fussed over,and he would rather use a person as a scratching post to rub his head on quite hard. I know this is disrespectful and I am using the Dually to teach him that it's not acceptable.
The other issue is that the older horse is The Boss, and the younger one will often hide behind him if there is something he doesn't like. However, sometimes the younger one pesters The Boss too much and invades his personal space to such an extent that he gets a good kicking or a hard nip, despite being given clear warning signals to back off, which he either ignores or can't read. As a result I find myself constantly treating cuts, bites and bruises, and I am worried that one day a misplaced kick will do some real damage. Should I separate them? Why do you think he can't seem to understand he's being warned?
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Horse Behavior and Training
Mutual Grooming
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Hi emlaw,
To start with the grooming, I would put a Dually halter on your youngster and a leadrope, then when grooming he starts to groom back, I would tuck the leadrope, to tell him to stop doing what was not asked of him. This way he'll learn his bounderies and not become more headshy then he already might be. Your older horse has his own way of teaching what is acceptable and what isn't, yours is a safer way. Remember that your youngster is still learning (aren't we all?!), so maybe your being strict can help him understand what is accepable and what is not. This will also help him understand the message the older horse sends when he tells him to back off. Your way will be without violence, but strict.
Don't forget to have slack in the line, when you don't need schooling.
Hope this helps, let us know how you're doing!
Miriam
Thanks for the advice Miriam. He is still quite tense when wearing the Dually, he will tolerate it for schooling but not relax in it enough to groom me back, he will only do this without anything on his head. The clinking of the rings on either side seem to bother him, but I guess he will get used to it in time. I have done backing up, leading, stopping, left and right with the Dually and he is very respectful of it and I can do all of this with slack in the line and he behaves like a dream. However, if I teach him not to groom me back, will he not get confused that I am scratching HIS neck, but not letting him reciprocate? Won't that seem weird to him? And at 8 years old, should he not by now have learnt by being with other horses how to read their body language? I don't have much idea about his early years or how he was socialised, as I have only had him for six months, but he does have lots of old superficial scars which show up easily as he is grey, which suggests he may have been bitten a lot in the past - perhaps he's alwasy been at the bottom of the pecking order, he's definitely not a leader. He follows the other horse around like a little puppy dog until the older one loses his patience and nips him or threatens to kick.
Hi
A few comments that might help:
1) Put some tape around the rings: that way they won't clink and so upset him. Separately you can desensitise him to clinking sounds.
2) When you are scratching him, if he starts to groom you then simply stop what you are doing. He will learn that the thing he is enjoying goes away when he starts to groom you and teach himself not to nibble on you. You shouldn't actually need to school him to stop.
3) He can learn to understand the 'rules' of your mutual relationship as long as you are always fair and consistent. The old example of letting a horse rub you with his head and then getting mad the day he does it to a friend - unfair and inconsistent. So if he isn't allowed to mutually groom then that is always the rule. In your 'herd' he does not mutually groom you - you're not a horse so the same rules don't have to apply!
cheers Jo
emlaw
Great advice given. No one answered the question of separation. If the 8 year old is getting injured because of his behavior and has not really learned from the saddlebred. I would separate them just to keep the vet bills down if nothing else. A lot of horses don't do well with other horse and so horses get along with any horse. If you can separate them but keep them next to each other the younger horse may start to understand when and when not to pester the older horse.
Horses that kick each other can be a critical problem, since as you said a well placed kick can do permanent damage. It also sounds like the saddlebred knows that he is the boss of all the horses and the people. A horse that just comes up to you and starts rubbing on you is behaving like you are just a fence post and is not only disrespectful but it is a very dominating movement. So I would say that both your horses need some very serious schooling. Don't worry about braking the 'bond' You either have that or you don't. Schooling will not cause the horse not to trust you. If anything it will strengthen your relationship.
Hi Guys
Thanks for all the helpful advice. I have been thinking about splitting the paddock in two with electric fencing, which would mean they can be separate but still see each other - it's four acres so plenty of space. The older horse up until about eight months ago was used in a trekking centre, and they decided it was time to let him go as he had got quite sour doing the same old thing every day, he had been there for about eight years having been rescued from the slaughterhouse prior to that. I wanted a second horse as a paddock mate and occasional ride for my learner husband, and he fits the bill as he is pretty bomproof when being ridden, just need to work on his manners and lack of respect on the ground! I do not think he has ever had just one handler to build a bond with, so it will be interesting to see if I can form some kind of relationship with him. The younger one I will try what Jo suggests and stop scratching when he starts to nibble. I will let you know how I get on over the coming weeks.
Dear Emlaw
I would like to come back to your basic idea of mutual grooming. I think the idea is that we are humans and not horses. It would be terrible if horses would treat us like horses (biting, kicking). So the rule must be: "I can groom you, you can't groom me."
Rudi
Yes Rudi, I think you are probably right. Horses grooming each other can be quite vigorous with their teeth and I don't want nice big bruises up and down my leg. I guess they understand that while we might be able to learn to communicate in their language, we are different creatures. I was doing some muck clearing in the paddock yesterday and watching the horses while I worked, and it occurred to me that the younger horse seemed to be challenging the older one by purposely invading his space - almost kind of trying to send him away, like in join up - squaring up to him and so on. The older one was having none of it and stood his ground - I think he will always be the boss, but he finds the constant challenges to his leadership tiresome and that is when he bites and kicks. After each challenge attempt, the younger one always defers to the older one and they settle down, and he resumes his puppy dog role, following him around the paddock. Before joining the online uni I might not have picked up on this. Time spent just hanging out in the paddock can be so educational, even just watching the horses interact.
Thank you very much for this interesting observation.