Thanks for sharing Paul. Will try to find the time to check it out.

Hi Paul,
another of your very valuable suggestions!
Thank you,
Miriam

Maggie - I recommend you drop everything and watch this! :-) Thanks Paul for finding it. I feel I need to share this with my online companions - I hope I'm not taking liberties but I don't have many horsey friends :-)

I have not always been a horse and dog trainer, quite the contrary. I was a career driven "heart attack in the making" work obsessed management person, but in 2002 my Dad died and it broke my world. So I gave up everything in the search for a new life. Those of you who read my "how eall got into horses story" in previous posts know that I was terrified of horses to the point of terror induced allergies, panic attacks and everything else. No matter how hard I tried (until I was 25 and then nearly broke my back in a fall so I gave up) I couldn't "get it". I was taught the old adage that "front end bites, back end kicks and the middle bit is uncomfortable and hard to stay on". Then finally 6 years ago I thought I'd have one last try (I'm now 47) with this thing called "natural horsemanship" that I'd seen an advert for. Why? Because the feeling of wanting to be with horses just won't go away. But I swore that if this didn't work I would quit for good. I then discovered Monty's book and was lucky enough to find someone kind enough (or daft enough!!) to let me learn on her horses. The rest as they say is history. However, I don't get a lot of work because I am cautious, and I am more concerned about the relationship than the "doing", I don't go to shows, and I don't work loudly and dramatically so it sometimes seems I'm not doing much, yet I know the horses appreciate it (the humans find it harder to grasp and often don't have me again). My pony was wild and unhandled and to this day very few can "catch him" in an open field but he always comes to me. But I have begun to doubt my ability again recently and have seriously considered giving it up as a form of employment because I have wondered whether I am still too "weak" at this. And yet being with horses gives me a feeling like no other. I find it difficult to trust people (my issue not theirs) and am often plagued by self doubt and restlessness to look for the thing thats missing. I am loud and extroverted (and very opinionated and talkative!!) with friends (non horsey) and they cannot believe how I am when I'm with horses. So why am I rambling on about this? The video I've just watched has reminded me why I do this, reminded me that I may feel like a lone voice here in this horseworld soemtimes, but I'm not; and what these horses do for me personally in helping me find the elusive stillness that I cannot find anywhere else is to valuable to let go.

Hey Vicci;

I'm really pleased that you watched it, and, that for me as well, it served to very strongly remind me of what can be learned from these wonderful creatures, if we can just be "very still and very patient and very observant" long enough.

Starting at 10 years of age, I spent every summer hanging out with the farm percheron herd of which the matriarch was half feral, (seriously). I spent literally hours with them for weeks and months on end doing nothing but "hanging out" with them, just listening and watching and observing their body language and communications. Eventually being able to "communicate" with them. And it wasn't until adulthood that I felt comfortable enough (self-conscious) to opine to people in general, that horses can literally read/sense a persons metabolic rate and sense every emotional nuance and mood that we present with. And this, from a very great distance.

The woman in the video experienced the same thing...I was very pleased to have her mention that. Most horse people that I know, just don't "get it" even though they have been riding most of their lives. They are very proficient riders, but have never and I don't think ever will, truly "know horses".

OK, I'm babbling again, so will sign off.
Cheers,

Paul

I would agree with you Paul, on the point that many proficient riders will, unfortunately, never truely know horses. However, though not a great rider by a long shot, I was able to recognize that they do communicate, and they can, as I like to put it, read us like an open book. And Paul, please babble on, as it gives those of us that only have 1 horse or can only spend time with horses on occasions valueble insight, even if it seems insignificant to you.

Absolutely moving!! Every person who comes in contact with horses should watch this. I entered the horse world at age 39 and in just these short 8 yrs., I've learned more about horses than most life-long horse people will ever know. I think if you're born into the horse world, it's easier to fall into the trap of force and violence to control the horse. People just don't listen to their conscience. I felt then and still do now that if it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't.
I was so relieved when I first found out about Monty. His teachings validated all the feelings I had about what I'd witnessed. I can happily say that I have nothing to feel bad about now.

I feel compelled to add a little something that some people seem to overlook. It may sound like a "criticism" but it is not, it is a clinical observation, for lack of a better term. And I think that it is very important. I noticed this as a boy of ten after the horses realized that I was just that, a harmless little boy. They would play little games with me, not the matriarch, but the others, all to varying degrees.

I won't go into the specifics of that, that isn't my point. My point is this: For anyone familiar with join up, who has studied and watched Nevzorov's and Hempfling's classes, and understands "horse language" and join up will notice that these two, when faced with a new horse, conduct their own type or "kind of" join up, and it works. Mind you, I personally firmly believe that Monty's join up method is much better and faster and more bonding?...dare I say that? Oh well, I do think it more "bonding" spiritually and physically, when pursued that is.

What these two fantastic world class and oh so gentle trainers do, is to take the bonding that "join up" creates to the ultimate experience. They don't just do "their" join up to facilitate riding and training, they take it to another level altogether. They actually develop an amazing friendship and a deep caring it seems with their horses.

Any living human being whom chooses to pursue "join up" and take it further will never regret it....have fun with your horses, play games, dance with them....have your neighbors laugh at you, point and make fun....just kidding here people, just kidding, but who cares what people think eh?

Eloquently put and so true. Before I found Join-Up, and because I was going on pure instinct, I believe I achieved the equivalent. My daughter, for a time and reasons too complicated to get into, had given up on her mare (now mine), leaving me to take on the leadership role. As a mother, I viewed our horse as needing one. Reacting as nurturer, I spent time with her talking, grooming, observing, etc. and what evolved was a beautiful bond that has only grown stronger as the years have gone by. It's as you say, the ultimate experience. When I look into her eyes I can see she understands my love for her and I see her's for me. When I started riding her (3 mos. after the initial contact), I was a beginner. She was very spooky and green herself, but I could always reassure her and she never did anything to hurt me. Looking back I realize I could have been killed riding a relatively green horse, but I now see it as evidence of our bond and communication. When she bucked, it was out of inexperience and being unbalanced. And, on the occasions that I fell off, she never ran away, she just stood there with a look of confusion. Needless to say, she's priceless and will be with me until her end.

Amen. Let the world judge a person by a person's actions. Let them laugh. When they laugh, laugh with them, but for different reason. And doemac, I can relate all too well...

I just finished watching the Path of the Horse, (and finished crying as to not short out my labtop) and all I can really say is it's a good thing that Beamer is not an exact copy of me, or I would be found hanging somewhere after he got done doing many bad things to me. The more I learn, the less I seem to know as I look at myself and see what I have done. But then I look at what I do know, and realize that at least I had enough sense to look and realize that something was wrong, and should be done differently.

I haven't watched this yet but I will, it's been so interesting reading everyone's posts. Vicci, please don't give up, you are so smart in the way of the horse, I always learn so much from your posts. I'm just getting back into horses after 35 years away from them, I rescued 5 starving/injured horses abandoned in a neighbor's pasture, 2 were completely unhandled and every horse I had been around as a girl was well-trained and bombproof. At 57 I am cautious but not scared, I found a great farrier/trainer who is humane and does wonders, who also has people tell him that he "takes too long" but I would so much rather have happy horses(and other animals, I have alot) than ones who have been forced. I am taking riding lessons from him and he is teaching me to trim their hooves as he says it is a great bonding activity-he does it with them standing groundtied or completely unhaltered, very relaxed. I am reading so many books on humane horsetraining, I want to be the best me I can be with all of them. Thank you all for doing your part to help me!

Thanks so much Vicci - I haven't watched the video yet but I will on your recommendation. Next time I log in its this video right now I have spent too long on forum after being away a few days. Hope everyone else enjoys it too as it sounds great! Sending this to the top of the list again to ensure I watch the video next time!

BY the way - THANKS PAUL for finding it for us!!

Thank you for your kind words horizon, it means a lot.

Wow can't wait to watch this. Vicci I'm so glad you're still in the horse world listening to your inner dream. It won't steer you wrong and healing of heart soul mind and sometimes Eben body is the horses gift to us. Along with their loving spirit. Doemac, as mothers what else can we do. I have that special bond with my daughter's mare. What she does yo test my daughter, she never does to me, she is kind and sweet and careful with mom, especially when I have a bad neck day. She seems to know. Thank you all for your forum posts, I live in a horsey area but have no horsey friends to share with.

Just spent an emotional hour. But it confirms my thinking and now I am even more dedicated to working with my horses gently. Thank you Paul for bringing this to the Uni.

Thanks Paul, the photo shots of those horses that were being mishandled really shows the pain and terror in horses eyes as people force them to do what they want them to do, really brings it home!!
Liked it that the horse is patiently waiting for us to catch up with them!!

Just brought this one up again to say thanks to Paul for finding this video and thanks to Vicci for recommending it. Really enjoyed it.

That's just great, I'm so pleased to see that so many people enjoyed watching and have learned from it. May I just recommend one more little thing here?....Nevzorov's work and publications are a little difficult to grasp for a lot of people as he presupposes (and rightly so I suppose) that any one using his methods has a great deal of horse experience, or at least has the love and patience to really take the time, lots of time, and commitment to develop the bond of true friendship. Anyway, Nevzorov doesn't explain that well, so some people just don't "get it". As well, the "direct translation" is quite literal so, for some, a little difficult to get? So, for anyone interested in pursuing his method, one of his Canadian "students" has written a wonderful heartfelt book that provides an easily grasped level of understanding of his method.

The book is called: "Beyond the Dream Horse" written by: Michael Bevilacqua, ISBN13:9781453725269 and its only $15.00 or so. Well worth it. It will make any true horse lover want to at least try this wonderful training method using nothing but a cordeo. And what a truly amazing bond will result... : )

Cheers,
Paul

Oh boy another quest! Thanks Paul. I am in the midst of the book after The Tao of Eqqus, from that video. What a great journey in understanding the horse /human dynamic. I will put this one in the queue to read next. Without the connection with the horse, all the Monty training techniques are not as effective. What he gives us is great ways to train a horse. What he can't give us is his internal knowing of "horse " that he has gained in his lifetime. We must find and build that ourselves. Thank you again.
Paula

Hey studio;

What I have learned, and is so vitally important and interesting to understand is this:

That there are 2 different types, to call them that of "join up". With Mr. Robert's "join up" the distinct role that is established is that the person becomes "the matriarch" (essentially speaking). Henceforth and forever, with that particular person, there will exist a subservient role of the horse to the human. Just try to "play" with your horse after "join up" and you will see exactly what I mean. Observe the herd in the fields and see for yourself. For the vast majority of horse people out there, this is (arguably) the best relationship to have. I only say this, because the "other join-up" produces a different relationship between horse and human, which the majority of people may not understand or be able to "handle". This, due to the deeply intense and emotional bond and understanding of "equus" that is needed.

The "other join-up" is one that Hempfling, Nevzorov and others in the film do, and Bevilacqua, and that relationship is one of absolute trust and friendship, taking great care not to anthropomorphize the horse, which of course is a very dangerous thing to do. The goal being, to establish an "equal friendship" based on trust and respect, such as with a sibling, but, being careful to establish that the human is the one who always sets the rules and "operating" parameters of the friendship and governs the hierarchy. What a difference!!!

Now, institute "fun and play time" and do a comparison, and you will see an amazing difference. This is where being able to do literally everything with the horse without any aids but your own body language is made possible. Because the horse has to like and trust you first, using this method. And this bond is not transferable from one person to another.

However, it does take (seemingly?) an innate ability to understand spiritually or at least a strong desire and patience to "get there" with your horse. But, what is important to note, is that whichever join up is used, it is for life...the horse will not fully revert between or change from one to another. Horses are very very intelligent and perceptive animals, much smarter than most dogs. I know, I have been training dobes and shepherds for years. Why most people don't get this, I don't know....it seems to me that the vast majority of people do not take the time to read and try to understand the "body language" of horses, it is so very subtle and yet conveys so very much....anyway...I've babbled enough...I just know you will love the book.

Cheers,

Paul

Absolutley fascinating stuff. Paul, I must echo Soul's sentiments and beg you to "babble" as much (more) than you like lol!!!
Does anyone know where I could find more information about studies on back pain in horses from riding, like that mentioned in the film? Time has not permitted me to do a proper google search, and I can only find information about human back pain while riding. I would very much like to know more about that.
I must read this Tao of Equus that I keep hearing about!

Cheers :D

Correction: *I would very much like to know more about (back pain in horse from being ridden regardless of saddle/circumstance)

Well, here is a start. I will dig up the other reference material that I have found and "link" it or provide the written references. This link covers various "riding aids" as well as thermographic studies conducted by Mr. Nevzorov's wife Lydia, a world renowned expert on the topic of back injury sustained by horses incorrectly ridden, particularly being ridden in a "not collected" state.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UyQvCQmp1A

Cheers,
Paul

Well, here is a start. I will dig up the other reference material that I have found and "link" it or provide the written references. This link covers various "riding aids" as well as thermographic studies conducted by Mr. Nevzorov's wife Lydia, a world renowned expert on the topic of back injury sustained by horses incorrectly ridden, particularly being ridden in a "not collected" state.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UyQvCQmp1A

Cheers,
Paul

Another good reference is Nevzorov's book, "The Horse, Crucified and Risen" which has a great deal of reference material relating to back injury sustained by horses. As well, this site is interesting as well.

http://www.veterinary-thermal-imaging.com/our-services/equine-thermography

A good thing, (so to speak) is that a good quality FLIR, thermal imaging camera, used by the general "trades" works quite well indeed for showing "hot spots" on horses. A good quality refurbished one goes for about $1,000.00 US. A very good buy when you consider any surgical costs juxtaposed against the camera cost.

Cheers,

Paul

Sorry to not submitted these all at once:

http://www.hartetoharte.org/_Equine_Biomechanics.pdf

Fascinating Paul and thanks for this. It also helps me to understand the problems I had re the ex-race horse Cash. The girl who had befriended him had a very strong seat after riding bareback as a kid but no knowledge of correct riding or dressage. Each horse she rode in my presence dropped its back under her and looked uncomfortable. Nicky who has had a previous back injury was very stiff in the hindquarters after she rode her and couldn't be ridden again for about a month. This girl had also mentioned that the riding school horse she usually rode had to be rested because it had a sore back. This rang alarm bells for me re the ex-race horse as he had previously had a back injury and needed to have his back strengthened and muscled up prior to her riding him much. However it is a delicate matter to explain to someone that their riding style maybe harmful to a horses back. Especially someone who thinks they are riding well despite never having had lessons and with very little experience. It certainly came unstuck for me and meant that my time with Cash ended. I tried to be diplomatic but failed miserably which has been sad and stressful. What do you say to those riders that maybe damaging a horse's back? My approach was to say "you have a very good seat due to your bareback riding but it is also a very strong seat that may hurt a horses back if it is not 100% fit" Total failure with that one!! Very timely comments and info here for me so thanks again.

And yet, Maggie, some of us that have no idea if what we are doing is the right thing to do wish that we had someone around like you to give us feedback. As I tend to say, if nobody tells you that you are doing something wrong how can you correct it?

Hi Maggie, sometimes diplomacy is difficult. What you said was not offensives, how she heard it may be another thing entirely. Maybe, a backdoor approach. As I. "I think if you strengthen the horses back /topline with exercises, he will be less sore after you ride, also you may want to be aware that seat bones are sharp to a horse, which can feel a fly on it's skin, so be aware how deeply you sit." May help..after the fact. Sorry you are having trouble. Best of luck.

This video has led me on quite a journey, which while giving much insight and information also causes me to look at all training styles in a different way. Paul, I read that book, what an eye opener and steppingstone to greater learning. This is not a path for the faint of heart. It makes you wonder that these magnificent animals put up with us at all, much less become our friends. I highly recommend reading it and seeing the different "join up " styles.

Hey Maggie;

I hear you...I just don't say anything any more, its so heartbreaking and people just don't want to be criticized, be it kindly or constructively stated.

Hey Paula;

I'm with you on this one, its not a path for the faint of heart. The damage that I have seen is so sad and sickening, and seeing it right before you eyes makes it 1,000 times worse, and these morons expect us as farriers to perform miracles and just don't "get it" when the vets tell them that their horse has to be put down because of their abuse. I've actually heard people say that their horse had "congenital problems to start with that caused the epiphyseal plate to break"...or that "caused the deep flexor to bow"....

Anyway, I am now completely convinced that with my horses, I will never ride them until they will spontaneously "collect"....and maintain collection for a respectable period of time...which is well worth waiting for I think....considering the damage that the thermographs reveal from not doing so....and I mean to be "collected" without rein aids that is.

Forget collection and riding, Id settle for fixing my very poor relationship with Beamer, just so he won't walk away from me and just might quit thinking of me as a complete loser.(Im not downing myself; its very clear what he thinks of me.)
And the saddest part of it all, I can see the relationship that I have with him as barely existent, and people around here seem to think I have something special... If only they would open up their minds and see.

I feel your sadness Soul, but don't give up, there is a way for you both to connect but you haven't found it yet. Tell us so more about what is going on with you and beamer, or better still do you have a video you can show us?

Giving up is not something that I do, as too many of the projects that I dedicate myself to that should only take days or months stretch into years. But at times like this I wonder if for Beamer's sake if it might be better to surrender...

Hey John, I just sent you another email....its all good my friend...this too shall pass...hang in there, you will see.

Cheers,
Paul

Paul, I'm finding all this information that you are posting most interesting. I would, however, like to know how one (particularly this Russian Haute Ecole mob) can correlate between the amount of tissue heat registered on a 'heat camera' and the degree of pain (like on a scale of 1-10) registered by the horse. Also, what is their camera calibrated to?
In Monty's lessons about saddle fitting, he finds a saddle and pad combination that allows him to sit on a horse and the heat registered underneath him is all 'blue'. This is supposed to mean that there is not too much heat. Obviously red is bad (hot) and blue is good (cold) right? Let's put some actual units on these heats. Let's talk in terms of energy and say that the 'heat camera' that Monty's guest was using was blue when it detected 20kJ of energy (for argument's sake. I have no idea how many kilojoules it would have actually been) and red when it detected 100kJ of energy.
Now if someone else was using a 'heat camera' that was calibrated differently, it might show red when it detects 20kJ of energy and blue when it detects 2kJ of energy. Thus, if one does not include units when demonstrating with these equiments, how can we make comparisons when different people are "measuring heat"? Perhaps I should watch both videos again (Monty's lesson and the one in this MUST SEE thread), because maybe they did show the units and I missed it. But still, if you want to make dramatic statements with a 'heat camera', all you have to do is change the calibration and not tell your audience.

The other thing I'm trying to find out at the moment is how would horses rate this 'heat' as pain? Remember when you were at school and you had to cart a big heavy bag around all the time? Well I did lol. After I got to school, I reckon that if someone had've put a thermal imaging camera (that's what it's called- I couldn't remember!) to my shoulders, it would've looked pretty hot! But I wouldn't've said that I was in pain. In fact, I wouldn't really have noticed it at all. On bad weeks, I might've needed a shoulder massage at the end of it, and after that I would've been OK- much like I would imagine a horse might on either his back or in his mouth.

I should contact these people, actually... Another question that comes to mind is what controls did they have in their study? Did they have a control group that had never been ridden or had a bit in their mouths? Had the ridden horses that showed back heat been checked out for underlying chiropractic issues? Could the circulation & pain issue be alleviated by massage, acupuncture etc?

I don't want to come across as skeptical, only thorough. I certainly want to do what is best for horses and be rigorous in my knowledge, because they are just too precious <3

Sorry, Monty's guest used a heat 'pad', not 'camera', but my concern remains the same: one can fool their audience (I'm not saying that anyone is, only that it's possible) into thinking that there is a lot of heat on any given surface by making your measuring instrument's measuring range smaller and the finer details picked up. Conversely, one could then make the instrument's detection range a lot larger to show the same surface appear to be cool.

I think you make excellent points eternal, it's easy to get swept up in what did our own belief system without questioning it as rigidly as we would a contrary view.

If I have learned nothing in life, I have learned this: and that is to not get involved in any lengthy heated debates in which emotions may play any role, or are apt to play any role, particularly, due to "old habits die hard" as Dr Cook states.
It is with the utmost respect that I say, that I fear that this discussion stands a chance of being dragged into that "black hole".

Please do not take anything that I say or have said personally, or be offended by any of the aforementioned comments that I have made (including the following) and the references that I have used, and please consider them in the spirit in which they were intended, that of having the welfare of horses first and foremost in mind.

So, I will just add this and then call it a day:
The Nevzorov's conducted their studies in concert with Britain's Equine Institute and Dr. Cook, with whom we are all familiar with. These studies were exhaustive, peer reviewed and, just as importantly unable to be scientifically refuted or rebutted in any way, other than those using an "ad hominem" argument. At least certainly not to date.

As well, their findings and research have been irrefutably corroborated by Dr. Gerd Heuschmann whom had conducted a concurrent study. Dr. Gerd Heuschmann is Germany's leading equine surgeon and is considered Germany's leading expert on the studies specifically related to back injury due to incorrect riding, including hyperflexion, more commonly known as "Rollkur".
He has published his work and made a documentary film as well: The book: "Tug of war: Classical Versus "Modern" Dressage". The documentary film: "If Horses Could Speak".

I have gone to very great lengths to ensure that I and others were not being led down some "rosy self serving path" by these individuals, trying to subtly and insidiously foist their "belief system" down my throat as so many people and companies try to do. And, I have come to the conclusion that they are not, having spent not hours, but days looking into this subject and analyzing related material, to the tune of well over 3,000 pages. This is well researched scientific material I refer to, not some "fly by night" self proclaimed experts (so called), but credentialed Doctors and Scientific researchers. Not to mention my own experiences as a farrier of 32+ years, and having kept myself very au courant as well in that field. (Just as a quick "aside" I have had some horses that I could not trim or shoe...their backs were so sore they were unable to stand on just 3 legs.

For me personally, what this has done is simply reinforced my belief that no horse should be ridden without first being trained to "spontaneous self-collection" before being ridden. If not, then at least incorporate Dr. Heuschmann's riding tips/methods noted in the documentary, until such time as the horse can be trained/taught to self-collect, (so to speak). This as we know, can take anywhere from 3 months to 2 years depending on the horse, the trainer and the methods used.

In conclusion, I do know that Dr. Cook and Dr. Heuschmann have an "open door" policy and feel confident that were you to direct your question/queries to them, that they would be more than happy to accommodate you. Its not that I am avoiding your question, it is simply a matter of (I think) one referring to and evaluating the materials that I have studied, and then I would be more than pleased to enter into an exchange of ideas and interpretations of same with you....

In order to facilitate that, as I said, both of these gentleman would (in my opinion) be more than happy to answer questions and are eminently more qualified to respond in greater detail.

Regards,
Paul

Cheers Paul. Thanks heaps, & no offence taken at all! :D

Hey Paul - your attention to detail on this subject is to be commended. Too often people take things on face value. As a farrier I would like to ask your opinion (if you are happy to give it) on Jaime Jackson's Paddock Paradise to board horses naturally and to get their hooves back to the strength of the wild horses preventing laminitis by paddocking naturally and not giving them access to ample quantities of green pasture. I understand if you choose not to comment. Thanks and regards, Jan

Hi Jan;

I'm familiar with Jackson's approach, and for the most part, its a great idea and works virtually all of the time. The problem is that most people do not have the time, or the money to avail themselves of a place like Jackson's.
Considering as well, that the "recovery and repair" times can vary from a few weeks to a few months or more depending on the pathology. But, for those who can afford it, I think its great really.

And as you and I both know and have experienced, 99% of hoof problems with horses is caused by poor hoof care and/or riding over terrain that damages their hooves, (if barefoot particularly).
But usually from incorrect shoeing, poor nutrition, too drastic a change to the hooves. Exacerbated by farriers whom are inadequately trained in pathological shoeing and so on and yet are still willing to "take a stab at it".

Anyway, not to get off topic, Jackson's ideas and others of like mind make perfect sense.

As wonderful and as preferred as barefoot is, (I'm a big proponent), here is the problem, as you know; It is pretty well impossible to not shoe any horse that is "working" or used in any of the riding disciplines to any appreciable degree, such as dressage or hunter/jumper, racing, or even used for hacking a lot. Simply because of the extremely excessive wear and tear on the hoof walls. For instance, you can't "box or cut" with a horse for too long without sliders on before you start having all kinds of problems really, including soft tissue and tendon damage as well, so you have to put them on. For the horses own well being.

Things that I run into a lot are the cycles of the seasons playing a role. For instance, in the spring and into early summer its wet as hell, (at least here it is), people put their horses out in the wet ALL THE TIME, aside from thrush, (sometimes) you get a softer wall after a while to varying degrees depending on the horse and feed and so on. And some barefoot horses end up with problems from that of course. Then it gets dry as hell.......and almost all, not all but darn near all, never bother to notice and pay attention to hoof care, and now as you know, you end up with cracks and chips to varying degrees, because very few bother with hooflex, (I know a lot of people poo poo it, but you see lot less cracks with it then without), which ends up being exacerbated by being ridden or worked for long periods of time, (whereas they have not been over the winter and wet spring unless one has an indoor riding arena, most don't. Rather than work their horses up slowly to give the hoof some time to adapt a bit.

Anyway, I'm babbling again, the answer to your question is really a very short one, that being, Yes, I think Jackson and others are right on the money...the big problem being is that unfortunately, as well intended as "we" all are, most of the time and for most people its just not realistic.

Whenever I have come across a horse with "sore feet" I recommend a summer layoff, take their shoes off, trim them up and have them put in a nice softish grassy area for a few weeks until they start to feel better. For their own good, in my opinion, the poor things feet are so sore they need the softer grassy areas to give them some comfort. Keep an eye on them, and when start to exhibit more freedom of movement and they aren't so sore, then let them have access to more "firm" ground...don't leave them on the softer grassy areas for months on end...that becomes detrimental of course as well,....at least its worked for the ones I have been involved with and worked well. Its just common sense for the most part.

Anyway Jan, thats about it for me, sorry to get off topic there, but..oh well....I have tons of research material as well as hoof impact studies that will blow you away, that are very interesting and a I can pass on to you if you wish...just let me know. The impact studies were geared to thoroughbreds and jumpers though of course. So, they probably won't interest you if your not shoeing in that area?

Cheers,

Paul

By the way Jan, Jackson does not emphasize this aspect very much, (I'm not casting aspersions here) but I think that its really very important, that if a horse is exhibiting any chronic hoof problem, at all, that they be checked on every single day. And for those that are not, but are still going barefoot for the first time, then check on them fairly frequently, as you know, they may end up with severe bruising even days later. Yes, I know, this too is all part of the conditioning process, but still, I would check anyway. Plus predators are a consideration, at least here anyway.

Cheers,

Paul

Thanks so much for all the details Paul - very interesting indeed and I would be very interested in what info you have to share. I used to own and run a breeding and training centre for some years and now am just enjoying my three horses, mum and foal and another mare for pleasure. My main interest over recent years has been rescuing abused horses and rehabilitating them - I was physically abused by my father when growing up over a period of years and I cannot understand the need for violence in our handling of horses. His violence towards me taught me to respond from fear not respect and it is no different for the horses - just to give you an understanding of my belief in violence free training, trust and respect with these wonderful creatures. I only want my riding mare for pleasure and as such she is barefoot (and bitless) and I fully understand all you are saying re their feet - the old saying "no foot, no horse" is so true. I worked in hospitals for some time and people neglect their own feet so it is no surprise that people forget their horses feet. I like some of Jackson's ideas but as you say for most people it is not practical - many people agist their horses and have no say in facilities. My farrier here has put the tracks in at his place and it seems to be working very well for his horses - I do know of a few others down here that have done it too. I have read all your entries on the forum and I find you a most informed and knowledgeable person and as a farrier I was really interested in your views. I have read Paddock Paradise and in an ideal world ...... Thanks so much for your response - it is great to hear from someone in the industry and get their viewpoint. Cheers Jan

Hi Jan,

Thank you for the kind words. In keeping with the topic of horse feet, (should start a new thread really) here is one of the many very important research articles that I just know you will find very informative and interesting, involving (in part) comparative morphology of feral vs shod horses, and much more. I don't know if any other persons on this site would be interested in this kind of information, it is geared more to farriers and hoof care, but, I have found that, when horse owners take the time to educate themselves about hoof care and morphology and so on, that it gives them the confidence to discuss what is being done with and to their horse's feet. As evidenced by the Michigan research team (noted here) and so many others, it is very revealing, the extent to which what a farrier does or does not for that matter, affects wall growth and thickness, travel, capsular ligaments, tendon damage, sore mucsles...on and on...
Anyway here is one of just many you can take a peek and let me know what you think?

http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/newsimages/hl_78_17-27.pdf

Cheers

Paul

I know that it's "catty" of me but just to emphasize a very important point, that being record keeping, and regular measurement taking of angles and hoof wall lengths and so on, here is a quote excerpted from this article:

"Some farriers track their client’s horses by recording hoof measurements such as lengths and angles, and photographing the feet at
regular intervals."

Unfortunately, it is only "some". Of the 30 or so farriers that I know, none keep records or take measurements, none...oh well.

Thanks for the article to follow up on Paul - I look forward to reading it. I agree that as owners we need to understand as much as we can to ensure our horse care is the best and as I said before the feet are just so important. I agree about the record keeping also and I have files on my horses covering all the information relating to them so that at a glance I can check on anything I need to know - including foot info but will now add photos to their files as well - thanks for that. It makes life so much easier. I will get back to you with feedback on the article - thanks so much again Paul. Cheers Jan

Eternal student, try not to take offense to this, but the pad that you were talking about is not a thermal pad, but a pressure pad, so that is only telling us about the weight distribution, and not how the horse's back is responding to that weight.

Hi Paul - a bit late getting back to you - sorry but I read the article you gave me the link to and also followed up by reading Beyond the Dream Horse by Michael Bevilacqua. Certainly a lot of food for thought with both of these. The research on the hooves shows me as owners how little we really know (and some farriers !!)- this is critical to the wellbeing of our horses and there is so much to learn and understand - absolutely fascinating though I must say. I have spent a lot of time looking at my horses feet since this and trying to get a better understanding of the intricacies of this oh so important part of the anatomy. Michael Bevilacqua's book is a very interesting read and his way of being with his horses is quite incredible but like him I feel that there will always be more people wanting to be dominant over their horses rather than working in partnership with them - and as he says listening to them and looking at how they respond - we can learn from them also. Thanks for the leads on this information. Cheers Jan

Sounds great. I'll have to read it.
Thanks Soul, great pick up! Sorry to lead everyone up the garden path :/

Hey Eternal Student - you may like to read Mark Rashid - Horses Never Lie - a great story about his introduction and life with horses and his attitude towards what he calls passive leadership. Cheers Jan

Hi Jan;

One final comment and recommendation. With respect to training horses. We have both read numerous books/recommendations on horse training. Well, of the countless books that I have read, I have never in my life seen and read anything more insightful, detailed, comprehensive and more in depth than Klaus Hemplfing's works, specifically: "Dancing With Horses", "It is Not I Who Seek the Horse, the Horse Seeks Me" and "What Horses Reveal". The first two are absolutely unparalleled with respect to training.
His ideology is hand in glove with Bevilacqua and NHE.

Let me know what you think, you will not be disappointed and your horses will be thrilled....: )
Hey Eternal student, you would be well advised to incorporate these methods with you 3 new students.

Cheers,

Paul

Thanks Paul - I have actually been doing a lot of research on Klaus of late so am very pleased to have your recommendations on these books. Will follow up with great interest. Thank you so very much. It really is a fantastic journey we are on with our equine friends. Cheers Jan