Hello everyone
.
I was just looking for something on the internet for my horses and stumbled upon this very interesting and somewhat disturbing article.
.
Its about a book which presents a historical account of horses who have been known to attack and kill people and it also talks about some cultures that trained their horses to eat meat. I think if these accounts are true, these violent horses must have been the product of the rough handling methods used in those days... Not sure what to make of the meat eating though as I have never heard of this before.
.
What do you guys think?
.
Here is the link:
.
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/features/meateatinghorses-190.shtml
.
I hope I never run into a horse like these ones and am so grateful that Monty Roberts is showing us a better way of working with horses so that this kind of behaviour is prevented.
.
Interested to hear your thoughts and comments.
.
Kind regards,
.
Gen
← back
Horse Behavior and Training
Man Eating Horses (interesting article)
Rewards
Subscribe to Equus Online University and become a part of Monty's worldwide mission to leave the world a better place for horses and for people too.
Students automatically gain access to special rewards, such as exclusive discounts at the Monty Roberts Online Shop. Visit Monty Roberts Online Shop.
I feel a strong urge to pinch the bridge of my nose and groan, reading that article. It's very interesting, and so is his view on how people perceive horses.
I just can't see why he keeps saying that people has "amnesia" and thinks of horses in a rosy Disneyfied shimmer? Maybe people who only encounter "Disneyfied horses", but I do hope all of us who deals with them on a daily basis, are well aware of what they are capable of.
I don't mean that a horse would start eating us alive, but any enraged horse - and esp. a stallion - might kill you if you get in his way.
IF the story of the Lucknow horse is true, it is most likely a story of a psychotic horse. (Poor thing!)
.
Horses are being fed animal protein at times when vegetable protein can't be found - that doesn't mean it agrees with them ove ra longer period of time. I'd love to hear a veterinarian's POV there.
.
The it is this sentence: "Literature has Shakespeare, Steve McQueen and Sherlock Holmes all involved with man-killers or meat-eating horses."
I'm sorry, but this is where I get off the train. To me that says he is mixing fantasy a bit too wildly into his research.
Not saying horses can't kill people or eat meat, but to go from there to shout from the barricades that horses are ferocious killers is a step too far.
Treat them right, and they probably won't go Dracula on you! ;)
I don't think that I will read the article but the points of view being expressed are interesting. Biologically speaking if a horse were to eat meat he would not be able to digest it and it would be a toxin to him. Herbivores digestion is much different. Cows don't digest corn very well and can make them sick and in some case will cause death if the "plastic residue" is not removed from there stomachs. I am sure there are a number of incidents where a horse was either fed met or accidently eat meat. Maybe they were able to have it pass through their system but there is also a larger chance that it would make them colic.
There are some product like Red Cell that is a source of iron for horses. I feed this to my horse all the time and it is made from liver but in very small amounts and it is a liquid, so the horse gets the iron and other minerals but the animal by-product passes through. Don't think that constitutes eating meat
Cheers
Well guys there have been horses taught to attack humans with the sole purpose to kill or do bodily harm.
The Lipazzan (Lipanzzer) Stallion.
It was used as a war horse for centuries.
They have been trained to turn on a dime, straight up in the air to kill foot soldiers.
The are also taught to rear straight up to protect their riders from flying bullets.
They have the ability to jump and kick out with all four feet.
Quite amazing to watch.
As they no longer use them, mostly, for war purposes there are only about 3,000 of them left on the earth and over 1500 are in the USA.
During the second World War The Natzi's were killing them off like flys until an American General found out and saved as many as he could.
They are magnificant creatures and live to be the oldest of all horses because of their extreme abilities and pure muscel structure.
They take the longest of all horses to mature and do not begin any training until they are four years old and then it is intensive for 6 years.
They are born seal brown bays, turn pure black and by the time they have started to reach maturity at 10 years of age they will be pure white, with black skin.
The mares are valued because of their mothering skills, they too take a long time maturing (emotionally) and will also eventually turn white.
My horse, STAR, is having her DNA tested because she is suppected as being one, she was bay, now black and is turning white, also her skin is pure black.
I will not train her to kill, I promise! But you should see her move!!!!!
Ronda
Ronda
Take some video of her. I would love to see her move. Interesting how there are so many different ways horses move, depending on their breed. Gen. George Patton was the general who saved the Lippizaner's He was an SOB to people but a real saint with horses!
My curiosity got the better of me and I read the article that Gen refered to. It struck me that in the narrative they talk about hearing the sound of iron-shod stallion. That means that someone owned that horse. I just think it is a fairy tail and not a very nice one.
This type of "historic" commentary can have dreadful consequence for horses. As far as Mongolians feeding their horses blood I do believe that since Red Cell is based on a blood product. But horses cannot digest any meat or meat by-products They cannot break down the fiber and the meat will change the bacteria in their gut and could cause them to colic. Not a fun thought
Cheers
Hi all
.
Thanks for commenting and taking the time to have a look at the article :-)
.
Until I read that article, I had no idea that anyone would even consider feeding a horse meat. I have heard of suppliments like the ones you mention Dennis that are made from Liver but I have never used them.
.
Reading the article really put a fright into me at first. But, I am with you Kicki, I believe if you treat them right, you won't create this kind of horse - and there is also the possibility that the facts aren't entirely straight...
.
That's interesting history about the Lippizaner's Rhonda and Dennis, I didn't know that the war horses were trained to perform those movements for the purpose of war. When you say it though it makes sense. A lot of the things we do today for fun originally arose from war or work of some kind. Like rodeo - that came from cowboys working.
.
Yes, I agree with you Dennis about how this kind of thing can adversely affect horses and people's perceptions of them.
.
This article really made me appreciate what we are learning about here and how important it is for us to help get the message out that there is a better way to deal with horses so as to harness their cooperation and willingness and avoid traumatising them and creating potential monsters.
.
I'm glad that General George Patton saved the Lippizaners :) They really are beautiful horses. It will be very cool if STAR is one ;)
.
Kind regards,
.
Gen
Gen
FYI if you go to the web and look up the Spanish Riding School you will see that they still train the Lippizaner in the maneuvers that were used in combat. Airs Above the Ground is were the horse leaps up and with all four hoofs off the ground kicks back before coming down. That maneuver could take out a rider or another horse. Today it is just a beautiful maneuver. Here is a link to watch a performance of the horses http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn6Jmqs9IHQ
I was lucky enough to see them about 30 years ago and I still can remember the excitment and awe of their performance.
I have seen the Lippizaners of the Spanish Riding School too when they were on tour in Sweden. It's an amazing performance they put on!
.
Ronda, I hope you don't mind that I correct some of your facts about Lippizaners and color. Color genetics is right down my alley and the know-it-all in me just *have* to butt in.
.
It's true that war-horses were trained in these schools above ground, but not just Lippizaners. All sorts of horses, even the non-war-going ones, esp. in the Baroque period, were trained to do these schools since it was considered part of their and the (nobleman) riders' education.
(See all the portraits with a man on a horse doing the Levade?) (Levade= sitting back on his haunches)
.
Any horse can do these moves naturally, it's part of their defense against predators, but some can be taught to do them on command. I know of a Shetland pony who does them all on the lines. (Very cute!)
.
They also train and show these schools, with some variations in style, at French Cadre Noir, and the levade is also the highest form of collection, so some dressage riders and Baroque riders aim for that.
.
Now for a short lesson in color genetics, just so you have it right.
Lippizaner horses are almost always Gray, which is a dominant color-gene that decrease the amount of pigment produced over the years in the hair (not the skin!)until very little or none is produced = giving the coat a roaned look until it finally looks all white or flee-bitten on gray skin. (Do not interchange this with Roan, Cremello, or some paint-genes like Sabino!)
.
Gray exists with a few exceptions in almost every breed, and since it is dominant it *always* shows. It can't hide or skip a generation, so you just can't get a Gray with two non-gray parents. (You might get other white colors, but not Gray.) A Gray horse will always have one (heterozygous) or two genes (homozygous) for Gray. If bred the homozygous horse will always give away one Gray gene. For the heteroz. horse it's a 50% chance for either Gray or non-gray.
.
A Gray horse ALWAYS have one of the basic colors of chestnut, bay or black, plus any other color affecting gene there is (dun, palomino, paint...anything).
As they gray out -a process that takes anything between 3 -13 years, possibly depending on whether it has one or two genes) a chestnut will get a rosy color, the black steel gray, and bay horses (depending on how fast they gray out) can actually look darker/black as part of the graying out process. Some will look dappled other will be "mottled".
.
There is, however, no gene that turns bay into black (genetically speaking) because bay is black with a gene (Agouti)restricting the black to the points.
.
Your horse can still have Lippizaner in it, Ronda - and that would be so cool! Please, don't think they are ferocious creatures! They are of a very gentleminded breed.
.
We must keep in mind that horses are non-predators, but defenders, so they don't attack out of a need to feed but to eliminate a danger/threat. "Death" as a concept has no meaning to them.
My horse actually has a drop of it too, as one of her ancestors (back in 1800-something) was the only Lippizaner ever used in breeding SWB in Sweden. ;)
.
Sorry if this was too long! For the curious here's a link to a very complete one of very many sites about colorgenetics: http://www.horsecolors.us/
Kicki
Thanks for the education of genetics. It sometimes baffles me with dominant and resessive genes. horse breeding is as much and art as it is a science.
Cheers
Kicki I'm sorry to tell you this but you are WRONG.
Lipazzans are born seal brown bay, turn black and then eventually white.
They always have black SKIN, they are born with it.
When they start to whiten it can start on any part of their bodies and they will at sometime in their lives look grey.
Their whitening starts around three years of age and very gradually , over a ten year period, do they turn white.
They are the only breed to do this and it is their trademark.
One of the first questions on a DNA kit is, what color is the horses SKIN. If it is not black they cannot be Lipazzan.
I have done extensive research on this because of my situation.
I DO NOT WANT A LIPAZZAN, they take to long to mature mentally and are high strung because of their being so hot.
The Lipazzan association is very interested in her, we'll see.
I have no fear of STAR, she is gentle but immature and therefore a little harder to train, one step forward and three back, by their standards she is still considered a filly. Fillies do not retain as adults or even youngsters do, so a lot of repetion is needed.
For now her training is to keep her in shape and build her muscel for her years ahead in competition.
This is the site that you can look up to see a photographic progress of the Lipazzan colorations.
It is: http://ca.images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2Fca.images.search.yahoo.com
These horses have not been allowed to interbreed with others and have kept the same genes for centuries, thus making them one of the oldest breeds in the world and the purest.
We are not dealing with a normal breed here and normal colorations, we are dealing with something very unique.
I would appreciate a site that you can share with me on another breed that can preform as the lipazzans can, imagine only stallions together in training for 6 years!!! And no problems from them because they are born to do this, it is in their genes.
Ronda
"Lipazzans are born seal brown bay, turn black and then eventually white.
They always have black SKIN, they are born with it.
When they start to whiten it can start on any part of their bodies and they will at sometime in their lives look grey.
Their whitening starts around three years of age and very gradually , over a ten year period, do they turn white. "
.
We have no argument or disagreement there, Ronda. :)
Actually, it's pretty much what I said about the Gray gene, if not specifying ages/breeds since graying out can start to occur as early as in the womb (in which case the foal is born with "goggles"; white hair around the eyes), or as late as when they are ten years old.
.
The Lipizzaner certainly is a unique breed, but the color - at least not genetically speaking - isn't.
There is only one gene that causes Gray and it's the same in all breeds; Arabians (from which the mutation most likely first occurred several 1000 years ago), Percherons,(also bred for Gray), Kladrubers (a very old breed that was a part of the foundation of the Lipizzaners) or Icelandic horses (which also has been bred without interbreeding since the Vikings took them to Iceland more than 1000 years ago.)
.
As late as in the 18:th century, there was still a diversity in the Lipizzaner coat colors; dun, chestnut, even paints. But the royal family favored gray horses and so they bred for that.
Due to the fact that Gray will superimpose itself on absolutely any color, it is relatively easy to get a uniform breed.
Mind you, they are not all homozygous for Gray, so occasionally a bay or black horse pops out. (They always keep a bay gelding at the Spanish Riding School for luck.)
.
"what color is the horses SKIN.If it is not black they cannot be Lipazzan."
No argument there either! All Grays have dark skin, contrary to other white colors which occur by dilution of pigments from the very start; like the creme gene (making cremellos), or extensive paint/pinto-coloration that can give all white horses but with pink skin. These genes do not exist in the Lipizzaner breed (anymore, I should add) so that would prove it right there.
.
I'd love to see the progress of their graying out, but the link goes nowhere. :( Do you think you could post again but with a direct link rather than the Yahoo search? I think that's what messes it up for me.
.
"I would appreciate a site that you can share with me on another breed that can preform as the lipazzans can, imagine only stallions together in training for 6 years!!! "
.
The Spanish Riding School is indeed a unique place. The only other place I know of that does similar things is - as I've already mentioned -the Cadre Noir in France. Don't know how many stallions they have, though.
.
But training stallions together is not altogether unique. Circuses do it all the time. Several studs also train their stallions together - no other comparison with the Spanish Riding School made or intended!
.
I didn't find a link to the Shetland pony I know of, but I did find another one also doing the capriole!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joYCpYFRKgo
.
Funny how we got from meat eating horses to color genetics! :D (I promise not to go on with it!)
Glad to hear that Kicki, seeing as you were the one who brought it up in the first place.
I was only telling Dennis about my horse and you got involved somehow, go figure!
Then to be told I am wrong about something I have done a lot of research on was insulting.
I will not post something unless I am absolutely sure about the facts, having a law background, and if I am wrong will be the first to admit it.
I was not saying their HAIR color was unique but their SKIN color is.
But of course you know everything there is to know about colors, right?
As far as trainig is concerned, they are unique, because of several factors. Circus trained animals do not jump 6-8 feet in the air, in perfect harmony, and then kick out.
Oh yes, we were not just talking about meat eating but killing machines.
It would help if one were to read the whole posting accurately.
Maybe then we would not have these disbuts on the forum in the first place, harmony, right!
Funny but when I type in the link I see it very clearly and as I use Yahoo as my search engine regularly, working with computers, I see no reason for me to do the research for you. You posed a statement and I provided the argument against it.
Keep trying you'll figure it out.
I found an interesting article from "nature genetics".
"A cis-acting regulatory mutation causes premature hair
graying and susceptibility to melanoma in the horse"
http://www.uni-lj.si/files/ULJ/userfiles/ulj/studij_na_univerzi/podiplomski_studij/biomedicina/Urniki1011/Coat-melanoma-horse.pdf
Article regarding...
"Animal Protein Supplements
Animal protein supplements such as meat scraps or blood meal are not acceptable in most horse rations in large amounts. If much is added to the ration, horses will refuse to eat the feed. In addition, animal by-products are an excellent media for bacterial growth that could produce toxins, causing digestive problems."
http://ohioline.osu.edu/b762/b762_8.html
….......................................
"As we ran for our lives, we could hear the iron-shod hooves of the man-eater in hot pursuit."
This horse must have had a very brave and capable ferrier.
…....................................
“Unlike European horses, which normally received more human interaction as they grew up, many 19th century North American horses retained a savage streak which resulted in numerous violent accidents and deaths to the horses' owners. The four time man-killer known as Rysdyk was one such murderous equine. “
I think the horse was just defending himself from an aggression.
…..............................
"For example, not only did the Lord Chamberlain of Bhutan confirm that the King's 40 horses routinely received a special meal containing tiger fat, modern horsemen in that nation wrote to say that they are still feeding their horses beef and yak meat."
The vegetation is very poor in these areas, maybe they fed a kind of supplement of dried meat that they crushed to powder ?
…..............................................
"For example, mythology states that Alexander the Great's horse, Bucephalus, was a notorious man-eater.”
He was a killing people, but not eating!!
“A horse dealer named Philonicus the Thessalian offered Bucephalus to King Philip II for the sum of 13 talents, but because no one could tame the animal, Philip was not interested. However, Philip's son Alexander was. He promised to pay for the horse himself should he fail to tame it. He was given a chance and surprised all by subduing it. He spoke soothingly to the horse and turned it towards the sun so that it could no longer see its own shadow, which had been the cause of its distress. Dropping his fluttering cloak as well, Alexander successfully tamed the horse. “
...............................................
I agree with the author of the article, that we always should be aware of the potential aggressiveness of a horse if it feel in danger, but this doesn't convert them in killing machines or man eater. Anyhow, I don't like the style of the article.
Gen, I believe that it was back in the day when horses were severely abused or something. That's freakish what you found!
Hi all,
Do you remember the "mad cows", that were fed animal proteins and turned absolutely crazy?
Who knows what happens in the horse's brain, when fed animal-proteins...........
I don't think this issue helps any of us, eccept maybe to realise once again how important it is to handle horses in a -for them- natural way.
Miriam
Ronda,
I am terribly sorry, and offer my sincerest apologies, if you perceived me as insulting or rude since that never ever was my intention.
Kicki,
That's OK.
I have too much on my mind right now and I'm sorry because I get too touchy about a lot of things at this time.
Please accept my apoligies.
Ronda
If I ever came across a horse like that, I might need intense therapy!
Ronda,
Apologies accepted. :)
Hi all
.
Sorry for not responding sooner, I have been away :-)
.
Dennis, I finally got time to watch that video - its fantastic. My family and I missed the opportunity to see the Lipazzaners once when they visited our area on tour. We didn't have enough money at the time to go. I watched the video you posted and a few others with new eyes after reading what you guys were saying about the purpose of their training. Incredible.
.
I find genettics facinating too. So, thanks for the discussion and links on that Kicki, Rhonda and Cristia. Breeding is definately art mixed with science.
.
Good point Miriam about the Mad Cows, you could have something there. Very good point.
.
Yes, I agree with you Cristina, that farrier would have had to be very brave and capable. No way I would try to do his job... I also think that the horses acted out in this manner as a result of their treatment, but its quite possible their behaviour was exacerbated by something like mad cow disease as Miriam suggests from the animal protienes not agreeing with their systems. I don't know much about the differences between horses and cattle in that way, but it seems plausable and is interesting to ponder.
.
I am with you Horse Addict, if I ever encountered anything like that therapy would be a must!
.
See you later,
.
Gen
Gen, if I had an encounter like that, I'd probably not be able to go to my house for a while since there's not a place in it where there isn't a horse! Even the basement, my breyer collection's down there. lol!