hi guys hope all are doing well and all your 4 legged friends are good too!
be warned this is a long one, as i'm going to give as much details as i can!
from my previous thread, starting again, some of you know about my special needs boy and the accident a while back. since then he has been an angle. seriously he has not put a foot wrong. we've done long reining (thought the lines round him bum might be an issue but hes been a star!) some free schooling in the scary school (all good until we spy a donkey) and have even had a few riding sessions with him and he was a gent! Also started work with the dually and he is a fast learner!
It was almost like he knew what had happened and he was being on his best behavior. Even our relationship got stronger, i can catch him in the field now instead of him tanking off for ages and he's been wanting to 'hang out' with me which has been amazing.
But i was only a matter of time before his alter ego kicked in again. I now know why he threw me off and broke my collar bone in two places. He is becoming a nappy child. Over the past 2/3 weeks when we've worked (and i don;t push him too much, vary what we do ect so he wants to do it more) after about 15 mins all he wants to do was go to the gate. Fine, ok well he has been with his friends a lot since the accident. Then when his friend was being long lined in the field where we were riding he went from being focused on what we were doing in previous sessions when another horse was being worked too, to every time i asked him to turn away and work away from him, putting his ears back and not wanting to move. I took him out for a lead rope walk for the first time in ages and although he was eager to go, he was almost trotting on the way back. Again i thought, ok, not been away form his friends for a while, understandable. But thinking about it, the weeks leading up to my accident, he had started to go quicker home, unlike before. (i note we had been hacking on our own and in company happily for about a year and a half by then)
But today, when i rode, and his friend was worked in the field and for the first time the other friend was in the field next to us i wasn't sure what he would do. The horse in the next field was whinnying and racing up and down but woody (my boy) and the other working one working didn't bat an eye. I walked woods round the field to be sure but no he was fine, chilled out and wanted to eat. so i got on. He was fine, so i asked him to walk on. ears went flat back and he did a little hump. So I gathered my reins and nudged him again and asked with my voice too. If i hadn't been holding my reins he would have got me off. I knew i was tense so relaxed my seat and asked again. Again he rufuesd to take a step forward with trying to buck. It's only been 5 months since my accident and there is no way im going to get thrown again so i got off, marched him back to the yard to get the long lines, put them on and lunged him. I did get after him, not that i needed to do much, his bad mood and my body language combined got him going. He tried to stop at one point to look across at our neighbors horses and when i asked him with my voice to walk on he threw a hissy fit but did carry on. Yes i was fuming and yes i'm aware i should stay calm but i am not putting up with that. i can understand him being a spooky bum when there is something scary, im used to it, i understand it and its something we have been working on for the five years ive had him (people used to beat him, i don't mean a couple of hits with a stick which is bad enough, i mean properly beat him when he spooked so obviously he sees something scary and it's only heightened.)or even horses going into a blind panic on their own if they have never been on their own before. This is just a petulant child throwing his toys out the pram. And it does make me wonder why i bother. I love him to bits, but he doesn't make it easy sometimes and i feel so angry. confused and upset. Ive fought with him to fight his fears and for him to be safe for 5 years and ... i just feel pants about things now. Also it wasn't his back hurting, i'd checked it over before i tacked up.
We have / have had such a good relationship, done join up, conquered lots of scary things; we are a team, we are one and its like when he decided, his personality just flips. I can do pretty much anything to him, with him and its me so its ok. This is the horse that i lead up someone's front steps and knocked on her door when he dog got out and didn't bat an eyelid. The horse who the first time we got attacked by a dog i asked to stand still (thinking what you do if your a human) and he did. The next time a few weeks later it attacked and i let rip to the owner, woods defended us both, did't attempt to bolt or throw me off. So why in the five hells is his doing this now!? I do not get it and I do not know what to do.
I'm so sorry for the rant but i feel so lost right now.
Hi. You two have had a rocky journey! You need to stop & get control of your emotions. Your accident has left you, possibly subconsciously, scared & you need to deal with that otherwise it will blight your relationship with Woody forever. I have suggestions for both of you. Monty says take the easiest route for your horse to do the right thing. You have no accreditations on the Uni. Do you not use the videos? I've found them all interesting, thought provoking & invaluable. Watch & learn. Ok, lecture over. You need help, friends of yours & friends of Woody's. Your confidence will increase if you ride a horse a few times that does not have these kinds of issues. Woody is more likely to be calm & settled if he can be accompanied by one or more of his friends. There may be an element of separation syndrome but that can be addressed once it's served it's purpose. Once you are more settled & can remain cool, calm & collected you will be able to assist Woody to do likewise. There is a series on the Uni called Walter Won't Go Forward. I suggest you study it. Right, to sum up - don't blame Woody! Increase your knowledge & work on your own confidence by enjoying riding a safe horse, so you can be a positive influence on Woody. Use his attachment to his pals to your advantage so you can both achieve the partnership you seek. Good luck, Jo
A couple of things to add: (1) You said all was well until you asked him to walk forward under saddle then you felt him curve his back up. I know you checked his back but you need to listen to what he is telling you. If all was well in hand, in longlines/ with saddle on, then all went wrong as soon as you sat on the saddle there is something wrong. Check, check and check again! Examine the saddle, just becuase it's ok without you on it doesn't mean it's ok with you on it :-0 Is it pinching his shoulder, is it resting on his withers (look for white hairs), is it bouncing on his back, are you on the cantle etc etc. (2) I sense your frustration and upset and I feel for you but please stop taking this as a personal affront. Horses do not take revenge/decide to be petulant/behave like children - he is trying to communicate with you. You have come so far and done such a great job with him - his life has been tough before he was lucky enough to find you but taking your anger out on him will set you back. He will have no concept that you "marched him back to the yard...lunged him" as a consequence of his earlier behaviour.
:
Stay with it Widgy you are making progress!
Get a saddle fitter out to make sure the saddle isn't causing problems, if it hurts him, he will be unable to cope & it can cause problem behaviour.
I would ride him out only in the company of another horse; you can gradually let him take the lead for a short time, then put him behind again.
You should definitely watch the Walter won't go forward videos,but the main thing you really need to do is if he plants his feet & won't go, is to sit there for as long as it takes for him to look & check out what's worrying him & wait until he does take a step or two, then hugely praise him, even if it takes 2 hours to get that one step, then he will start to trust you a little more.
Some horses tune in more to the rider than others but you do need to take lots of deep breaths & keep in control; of your emotions as you need to "be there" for him to lean on.
It's amazing how just sitting quietly, while they are allowed to overcome their fear & work up the guts to take that first step will enhance your relationship & the trust he'll start to have in you; if he's scared of something & you are ranting at him on top, he's got nowhere to go & they can just freeze & go into themselves as it's safer for them than trying to do anything else.
A little story about a pony i loaned many years ago: his mane was Cheeky Boy, he was a highly strung, busy little chap & a sweet heart, but he did have some anything habits like running backwards on the road - that one got sorted by when he did start to run back, i asked him to continue until he backed into a wall, he didn't think that was so much fun!
He was so scared of stepping over a pole, he danced on the spot, sweated up, when back & forwards & was seriously terrified, i sat there very quietly & let him get on with it without interfering with him other than to keep him straight, it took him some time, BUT, he worked up the courage to pop over it & was so chuffed with himself & he was never worried about it again.
Please, once you have had the saddle checked properly, don't force him to be on his own on rides, he's just not able to cope with it right now & neither are you, so be kind to both of you, you don't need to prove anything, just for a while, take a step back.
I am still concerned that his behaviour is pain related though!
keep us posted.
Hi guys thanks for your responses. I know I was very emotional in my post, I just get disheartened when it seems after all the work we have done he steps back like 5 years! I know this wasn't a fearful thing and when it is I'm always patient with him, sit still and talk to him and wait for him to decide its safe. I trust his instincts, sometimes the scared thing isn't valid enough for me but I know it is to him. But what gets me is when he does things not out of fear. I know that to him bucking has positive responses-either I fall off or get off! Lol and I know in the past with others, he has become aggressive with it, through his fear....if that makes sense. And it worries me that he possibly did that now after so long.
I will check his back again and get a saddler out- I have a treeless saddle as others have pinched before and we did a lot of work bareback before finding a saddle that fit right, learning that it wouldn't hurt when I got on. I also have a gel pad underneath and then a saddle pad but I know things can catch. I should give him the benefit of the doubt, but it did seem more 'arsey' and I know my confidence is him has dropped significantly after the accident which doesn't help.
I'm not riding him out out, just in the field so his friends are always close but he seems worse when they are there as he just wants to be with them and not even turn his back to them when we are riding.
I am getting there with the lessons, ( going more slowly at the moment as I have a lot of wildlife to deal with and as soon as I release one thing I get something new in! ) and have found/ am finding the uni more help than I can describe. He has tought me a lot himself the methods Monty uses and I do they and think from woods point of view, but it's almost like we are so close I do find it a slight when he does things I didn't expect him to which I need to work on.
Thank you again and I shall let you know what the saddler etc says x
No wonder you are feeling frustrated Widgymaphhlip as it has been a long testing time with Woody and I know how disappointing and frustrating it is to have this kind of set back. Unfortunately he sounds a little like my Uggs who is also a spasmodic bucker and has always managed to throw me off once he starts fortunately he doesn't do it very often and I have learnt to be watchful of the triggers. Haven't had to yet but these days I would get off too if he humped or if I feel he could buck as I know I can't stay on once he starts . Like Woody he gets separation anxiety and I always shut him in a small yard next to my Shetland when I take Tricka, his companion horse, for a ride but even so he is a lathered mess when we return. He is usually fine to ride in my make shift ménage here but it is more enjoyable to take him out to our riding club which has about 20 acres to ride in on the cross country area. Like Woody other horses racing around are a major trigger so I try to avoid being too close to them. Not an ideal solution but Uggs is too old for re training or have a professional ride him - I think he would just buck them off anyway as he has not had another rider on him since he was broken in 15 years ago. Too late for Uggs but with Woody this is what I would do. Check out as manny of Monty's videos re difficult bucking horses as you can, have his back and saddle fit checked again, then lots of dually work, join up with the saddle on, lots of long lining with the saddle on with plenty of variety and change of gaits. Try to work him from the ground when the other horses are working close by to make him accept that he has to work then too, try with a dummy rider if you can find one or make one, and when you feel he is ready try to get a professional in to ride him for you. Given you are now nervous of him it would be better for someone who is not nervous to ride him a few times for you especially with the distraction of the other horses close by. Plus think about his feed. Not sure which hemisphere you are in but us southerners are moving into spring with spring grass so all our horses that are not worked regularly are more frisky now. You have put 5 years into Woody so try not to give up on him now - think of the progress you have made and now build on that with renewed determination. Good luck.
hmm, the treeless saddle again, I know some horses like them, but they can cause incredible pressure points from your seat bones which due to the action of the horses muscles when the walk can actually act like drill bits boring into their backs on those tiny points.
Someone who trialled a treeless for a company had to turn her horse away afterwards as his back was so damaged!
I'm glad you're getting the saddler out, well done.
Have you had a physio check him recently?
I am with beryl on the treeless saddles. Also- does he do this with other riders? I wrote a post about ' 3 year old tantrums' and my mare went ' mad' and did a bronco dance for me throwing me off. After that I knew I would for a couple of weeks transfer slight anxiety so my friend who is experienced got up there and I was on the end of the lead rope. Although she arched her back to start with my friend just gave her a good squeeze and a loud 'walk on now' and she gave up the ghost pretty sharpish. Had I been on her I would have thought 'maybe I'll get off...' In which case she would have instantly realised I was not a leader. That ride my friend rode her was the most forward she has been and she asked to be unclipped and Hatti just hacked off down the road happy as larry without me at her head because Sarah had come afresh and with a 100% leadership.
However... I get it. It's horrid when you feel like your treading water. Maybe take some time out and take a friends horse out for a nice hack out or a bit of a school so you can remind yourself what your heading for. It's never the same but gives you a breather.
good advice Becky, It can so quickly become a vicious circle of anxiety, I've been there with my youngster; we went through a horrible time when she was a baby, but our bond is very strong now.
Do you have lessons on him? If yes, what is he like when you have the support of a trainer in the school with you?
Great advice from Becky!
I feel for you!!
I had similar issues with my big man, he bucked to vertical the first time so I landed flat on my back, no warning at all!! Then he'd spin either way and I'd land flat on my back! To be honest it scared the crap out of me, with mum ill I was the only driver in the house so couldn't be injured. So I chucked him out in the field for a couple of years, had his back checked before I rode him again, he had put his back out by this time! I would go up to a friends yard & ride her big hunter who was an absolute gent. It took me a year after mum died to actually build up the courage to get on him, and that was only in the field and if someone was around! If I wanted to hack I'd ride him & lead his mum out (it helped to keep him calm) until I learnt to relax & trust him. Now I don't care and he doesn't try anymore, he still has his squeals, stamps his feet & bounces but it more excitement & play now!
I do still sometimes need to take that deep breath in & out to calm myself.
Don't we all Tiggy!!!
That does help a lot, taking a deep breath & breathing it back out.
I had to really think on Lib in traffic, i had to deliberately concentrate on pushing my hands forwards when a lorry came towards us as in panic, I'd started clutching at the reins & scaring her.
I admit to closing my eyes the first time i did it!!! I did have an older horse on our outside who Libby worshipped though.
Beryl, my old Dragon hated big traffic, she'd spin and bigger off, so had to keep a good contact and strong leg then she'd bounce past it!! Dust carts were the worst, himself on the other hand first time we met one turned around and followed it sniffing!!! He has the occasional blip for no reason just because he can! Winter just doesn't care trains buses, tractors & trailers lorries not bothered in the slightest!!
My old boy used to rear up in front of lorries etc, spin & sod off in front of it which is why I'm NOT brave on the road!! Libby sometimes is very calm but if it's colder & the Araby side comes out, then she can be silly, thats when my nerves take a bashing!
Winter's going great isn't she!
Yep, doing the 4y.old I'm bone idle routine when out in company! Need to get her saddle reflocked I can just get a finger between saddle & her, so using my old girls for a minute or two which is narrow with a rear riser, saddle is now 18 years old and could do with some tlc itself.. Decided to take her to do a Dressage test next weekend just the Intro, nice and relaxed atmosphere there so hopefully will be a good experience for her!
You think you're windy in traffic, mate Jenny had a mini go underneath her old mare!!! Luckily mare reared & spun so only glanced a back leg, Jen went over the bonnet, roof then landed on her head & smashed her knee up!! She remembered it all til she landed then coming round in the hospital! Mare was still good in Traffic afterwards.
i so wish you hadn't told me that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cheers bud!
Bloody hell!! Im glad it's not just me with a nut job pony and getting scared! Lol you guys give me faith! Plus if you guys can have such bad experiences and still get back on, then it makes me want to grow a pair too!lol
Seriously thank you all for your words of wisdom.
Woods and I had a chat last week and we decided that we had both been on the wrong page and lost track of each other and both (meaning mainly me) need to make more of an effort. So back to basics it is, as you said Maggie, though most of our work atm is ground work, long lining and im now doing it with the dually on and dually work in general.
At first he was suspicious of it-whenever i ask him something new or get after him (i don;t mean in a angry way, i just mean gee him up a bit) he really gets defensive and turns to look at me and if im all smiles he's ok but he is prepared to go on the defensive if im not. This is something I haven't seen for a while, or maybe its just im paying more attention. But the other day I did dually work in the school and got him to work next to scary haylege bales and he was fine! (wtf?!) he's enjoying the standing still part (miracle) ashe gets lots of praise and when one flapped, he spooked, looked at it, bit it, then stood has he had been. Totally amazing.
But thiat is the thing with woods, ground work he's great at. I still think he was napping when he bucked/tried to, as he has had back problems in the past and i can feel usually if he's back is out when i sit on him. Thas why i got a treeless as he wouldn't let me on with anything else other than bareback, but i will get it checked and look into the cons as i don't ever want him to be in pain. He has the physio out twice a year, more if needed and we do stretches every day to help.
Maggie, you'r lucky, our summer is nearly over here in the UK. He's on senior mix and alpha a with a joint and calmer supplement and the horses at my yard are on, to my frame of mind, little grass compared to what he used to live out on so he shouldn't be too fizzed. But then again at 19 he usually acts like a 4 yr old and chases the sheep and play fights with his mates.
Regarding getting someone else to ride him..it's tricky. The only person i trust to ride him (not that i have many horsey friends and those that i do still think a boot a whip makes a pony do what you want) has a small baby and if he did do something..well i couldn't put her at risk of getting hurt now. Also i am saving up for a certified instructor to come see him but i know he'll be too worried to do anything. Even when my friend who i trust rode him before, the first few tines i had to walk with him and every time she asked him something he'd look at me to see if it was ok. Bless him.
I did ride a friends horse the other day and Becky your right it was such a breather to ride something different!! Not done that in 4 years!! He is 20 and used to be a spooky bum like woods so it gave me a bit of hope too! It did though, show me how tense I am when i ride-his mum gave me a lesson and that was the main thing she said. I'm so used to having to be prepared for a spook or a buck, i don;t even realize im tense any more! So i will be working on that before i get back on.
Im glad to hear how you all have conquered/ are conquering similar issues and how well your doing! Sometimes I think valium, gaffa-tape and bubble wrap are the way to go but as always i shall persevere and try my best for him!
atta girl, ha ha ha!!!
We all get situations where we're as scared as hell, it takes a lot to get through it & you can if you really want to.
If you're scared on top, woody will be scared underneath you, so it is mind over matter. Your new instructor must be told how you feel as thats what they will need to work on with you rather than worrying too much at first with Woody.
By the way, there are saddle glues around!!!!
One's called sit-tite.
Aww Beryl, I cant not ride her, only been doing the short block and have had to take a hind shoe off over the weekend!! Our physio is here sometime today so back and saddle will be done, new hinds tomorrow then off on our travels again..
Wiggy, keep up the good work and keep riding the other horse, it really does help! You don't get over the fear necessarily but on something "safe" you realise that things aren't such a big deal, which gives you more confidence which you then transfer to Woods through your seat & hands. Deep breaths when coming near to issue areas(if there are certain places) will help yout release the tension/anticipation of problems. Says she who's horse is usually sideways on the wrong side of the road stamping his feet and bouncing..I do just sit loose in the saddle so he has no reason to have an issue, it's all his problem, to the point he will stop with no cue from me then paw at the road I have to dig at him to move on again!! He has got a bit better we now have spots where he does all of the above! One day I hope he'll get over himself....
Make sure you don't hold your breath waiting for that day Tiggy Ha ha ha!!
I was giving Libby some healing the other day, it's fascinating to watch her reactions as she's such a reactive horse; I found a tense spot in her neck & stayed there , she wasn't too sure about it & wriggled a lot, but she chose to stay with me, she wasn't tied up nor had a headcollar on, then i went to between her front legs & under her girth, she pulled faces & stamped, but again chose to stay & relaxed with her ears forward.
Woody does sound very like my Uggs who is now 17. Maybe I should follow some of my own advice but finding time for my Uggs has always been an issue. Trying to ride him more often at present and do try to breath and talk to him constantly. Touch wood. - he hasn't bucked me off now for over 12 months but I am still nervous when on him. Like you I wouldn't wish anyone else to ride him as I am quite sure he would buck them off and that could be the end of his riding - ever since the two crazy men ruined him I have figured that I needed to handle him myself. He trusts me and is a darling gentle horse on the ground. I love all my horses but he is my favourite despite his problems.