Try holding your arm out straight at shoulder height, with your hand up so that they "bump" into your hand if they come too close. You will need extra slack in your lead line to accommodate the distance and still keep the 'smile in the line' (its so much easier to demonstrate this than explain it in writing!) Hope that makes sense. Also, try leading from the other side: its always a good idea for horses to be happy being led on both sides: just clip the line onto the other dually ring. There is no right or wrong in terms of leading side (contrary to what people will tell you) - you may find they are happier being led on the 'unusual' side: I know one of the ones I work with is, bit like being left handed :-) Good luck.

Vicci, thank you for your response. While I would love to lead them without tiring my arm out holding it up in the air, I actually have tried that. Guess what they both do. Their faces stay at the end of my arm, but their bodies snake in close to me anyway! What gives??? I do try to lead my horses from the off side now and again to keep it familiar to them, but I'm soooo NOT left handed that it feels clumsy to me and it doesn't improve the issue of crowding either. =-(

So hard when we can't see what's happening! :-) ok, a couple of things to think about

1. What are you doing differently with these two? You might not think you are doing anything but get someone to watch you with the different horses and see if you are

2. Apologies - I meant its like the horse being 'left handed' i.e. some prefer the 'other side' and yes while it may be uncomfortable for you and I'm not suggesting you do it all the time there are times you will be very glad they can lead from both sides trust me!

3. As in the dually lessons, if their feet/body are placed incorrectly, back them up gently, realign them and try again, he will soon understand where he needs to be in order to get you to keep moving forward

4. Look at the videos on here about leading and watch the dually video again and again: I have watched it over 30 times and still pick up little nuances and tips that I hadn't spotted.

5. If you have the facilites, set up a long walking channel with a barrier between you and him so that he walks one side of it and you walk the other. Don't set it up near a fence as you don't want him to feel trapped; that is a differet exercise i.e. going through narrow spaces - obviously needs to be low so that your line is in a natural postions but he cannot make contact with you - does this make sense? Let me know if it doesn't, I will try and explain it better
Keep us posted :-)

I've thought about it and I have no idea what I may be doing differently with the geldings but that doesn't mean that something is NOT different! I'll have to keep chewing on that one.

Hmmmm, I like the idea of a walking channel. It might get them used to walking a little farther away from me.

Am I the only one here who is having or has had this problem? I would really appreciate hearing from someone who has overcome this. I don't think my heels can take much more!

My horse Tokia crowds me but i'm new at the dually. I keep rewatching dually videos. Monty mentions the crowding problem in one but doesn't show a horse who wants to walk in the same steps he is using....oh and she sometimes pushes me like she knows Monty was walking faster in the video lol.

I have the same problem. My gelding loves to be close to me while leading and doing groundwork. Not in a disrespectful way. He understands the space issue, but is just very affectionate. I do have a problem when we walk by the scary barn. He spooks in the same spot every time I lead him from the pasture. When he does he runs into me. I thought about it the other day and I'm going to try to do something with a carrot stick so that I can put pressure on him from my nonleading hand that will keep him away from me while putting pressure at the poll to keep his head down with my leading hand. I don't have a plan, just going to try different things to find the one that works. Because it is a matter of safety.

Start over. ALL horses, just like people have their "space bubble" and you (it appears) have never established your "space bubble". Use a nice light samson braid 3/8" to 1/2" so you don't get a lot of heaviness and drag to the rope. Start by walking backwards with the him, leading him along. When he start to walk in close to you as is his wish, stop abruptly, he should stop as well. If he does not stop, then abruptly, but not like some insane traffic cop, abruptly raise your hands up. He will stop. Start again. Repeat this, but (this is important) do this (in an unemotional way, stay calm), as often as you must, which should be no more than 3 or 4 times, depending on the horse and how habituated he is to being "close" to you.
Leave the line slack, he will quickly establish his own "bubble" between you and him...these will vary with each horse.
Next phase: Going to stop walking backwards now.... : ) using the same line, maintaining the horse's "established bubble/distance" position yourself at 45 degrees or so from his head, but keeping an eye on your horse, lead him on. If you are on his left, so that he is on your right, keep your right hand/arm extended somewhat, reminding him of the "bubble" and lead on.
If he starts to move in towards you, abruptly stop, he should stop. If not,abruptly raise your arm as well as stop. He WILL STOP if you are doing this correctly with clear signals.
Keep on doing this, it won't take long before he gets the space requirement you want. Then, and very soon you will both achieve a mutually acceptable distance, 1 to 2 feet or so between you and your shoulder with him a little behind your shoulder. As Vicci said, it is very important that you work both sides. Never mind what others tell you to the contrary. But have him doing it satisfactorily on one side before progressing to the other. It will work so much better for you. In fact once you start the "other" side you sometimes get almost instant results.
There is a very important factor that you must understand. Every horse will mirror the rider/owner. If you lead your horse in an indifferent and apathetic way, that is exactly what the horse will believe you think of him. He won't give a damn about you or how close you are to him. He knows exactly where you are and that he is stepping on your heels. He is not being mean, just completely indifferent and could care less. You have to lead in a lively vibrant way, with an upright posture, with shoulders down and relaxed and a certain "joie de vivre". Trust me, this will transmit to your horse and he will respond and reflect that back to you. Let him know that you are constantly "aware" of him and "where" he is and that you sincerely care about him. They truly do sense this.
And you should never, ever even have to so much as touch him or appear threatening in any way to achieve this. I mean always be kind and considerate and patient and stay super calm and gentle, but firm.

I just simply turn around, push the lead rope back with pressure on his halter and tell him BACK! Like Monte says ask him nice once, then twice, and then really strong! They're too big to be that close to you, and you have to be the boss, turn around and back them up, continue walking, and if they do it again, turn around and back them up, they'll get it, mine do. It may have to be done 5-6 times but they get it, you have to be the boss.

Hi V

While I have no problem with the backing up, there are a couple of points I'd like to make.

1. It is not necessary to shout BACK but voice commands are an option: it is the RELEASE of pressure that is the most important when backing up - if you watch Monty and Kelly Marks closely it is a sort of 'jerky' movement they make (this is why I keep saying watch the vidoes over and over again) - the timing is so critical - it is not about pushing them back with brute force (lets face it, its an illusion, if they wanted to shove back we wouldnt have much hope!) They are usually willing to co-operate with us if we are clear in our instructions.

2. I must take issue with the "you have to be the boss" notion - horses (and other animals) have suffered greatly from the idea that we have to be "the boss" and theories of domination. While I appreciate that you may be using it as an interchangeable phrase meaning leadership, I think too much damage has been done from the phrase "show them who is boss" - we aim to work in partnership with our horses as I'm sure you do. I'm not criticising you directly, if you didn't believe in Monty's methods you wouldn't be here, but they don't need us to be the 'boss' they just need us to communicate with them and negotiate respect and space. Horses are not in competition with us to be dominant, nor are dogs (contrary to some of the myths out there!. I always think of it like me speaking English and a person speaking French; we have to find some way to understand each other :-)

I'm with Vicci on the issue of being the boss. I tried that in the past, and it always ended in me fighting a horse literally 10 times my size, and that usually hurts a lot. Being a gentle and kind leader, providing the leadership that only comes from an understanding and trusting relationship, is not only more rewarding for both your horse and you, but is also much safer and more dependable.
I have also tried schooling with a Dually as Monty does for any of his groundwork, and have never been nearly as satisfied with the results as I have been when I used the method that is suggested above.

If we are continually dependable and reliable around our horses they will naturally trust us. If you are harsh or bully a horse they will not choose to be with you and after all isn't it better to have them want to be with you rather than they have to for fear of repercussions ???

I agree completely, because I learned that one the hard way. If you are attached to your horse, little hurts more than having them "cold shoulder" you. That is one of the less dangerous repercussions to being a forcibly dominant leader. Usually that quickly breaks down into much more aggressive behavior. And it takes a long time (and in some cases, a few new scars) to repair the relationship, which is never quite the same as it was.

My goodness vrichardson, there is no reason to be that mean and harsh at all, not if one wishes to develop a trusting and loving relationship with their horse. It is a clearly understood fact that when one backs a horse up forcefully in that manner, repeatedly, that it definitively changes the dynamic between one and their horse, and certainly not in a good way. It doesn't matter that Monty does it, that doesn't make it right, (to do it extremely harshly and repetitively that is).
On might as well add, "...and one punch to the face" for reinforcement and good measure.
Why not try the method that I mentioned, myself and countless others have tried it with great success.