My Chestnut Mare (16.2h just turned 5yrs and backed her myself 18months ago using Monty’s Methods) has become somewhat lazy at times and disobedient.
She is a sweet mare, sensitive and most of the time willing but if you challenge her with something she can’t do straight away or she doesn’t want to go somewhere and has her own ideas...she will be rude and disobedient. I have never needed to use a crop/whip on her and don’t want to go down that route as I believe it will make her worse (I do use soft rubber spurs).
Example 1: I have been hacking out on my own or with other horses since after 4 weeks of her being broken and she is usually brave, bold and confident generally happy to go forwards while casually looking around and admiring her surroundings. If she got tense I would generally as her to go forward off my leg no problems. We had a really bad winter which resulted in little hacking. As we come back into Spring/Summer her attitude changed-we would set off in any direction and after about 100 metres she would slam the brakes on a refuse to go forwards by trying to run through her shoulder going sideways, reversing and sometimes doing few little bucks or baby rears. I would ask her to stop by removing my contact then ask her to walk on with my leg. We would continue the behaviour and sometimes after 5minutes (seems like forever) she would give in and walk forwards about 3-5metres and repeat performance. Worse case scenario I have got off and lead her forward then its a battle getting back on! Yet she prefers me on the ground.
Example 2: If we set out on route in hand or ridden to the indoor schools she will misbehave at the same place-yet if I take her to the outdoor school which is in view of the fields and other horses she is golden.
Example 3: If we are in the school and I am schooling her I have to keep it varied...when she has had enough or she doesn’t want to do the work no matter what, even if we have been in their for 2minutes she will NAP sideways running through her shoulder to the GATE. She even did it in a dressage test the other day and she has ever done that but to overcome these situations I put my inside leg on and outside leg back and ride her forward with my seat (generally works but it’s hard when she locks her nose in the air to avoid contact with bit).
I think she is very opinionated but she is sweet and has made some much progress yet we are at a sticking point and I really want to hack her out and show her the world which I know she will love.
I think she does suffer from separation anxiety (other horses) at times yet when she is distressed she doesn’t call to them. She obviously feels safe and secure in her local environment/proximity (stables, field, round pen, schools) and her mindset has changed slightly since Winter. She is very food driven yet is very healthy and even if she inches for a blade of grass in hand I say No and she accepts it.
Anyone got any advice?
Monty Roberts is coming to my yard to do a demo in October and I am thinking about asking for her to be selected for support as I am at my wits end. Yet she joins up beautifully and I am not sure what he could do for me.
ANY IDEAS?
Thanks Emma
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Horse Behavior and Training
Lazy & Disobedient at times! Help!
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Hi Emma,
You're lucky to have Monty coming to your yard, not many of us can say that!
All horses that are presented to be selected for the demo will be helped by Monty's team, even if they would not appear in the demo. So I think you have a very good idea, asking for support there. Make sure you do it in time, so they'll be able to take you in.
Since this is still 2 months away, watch as many lessons on this Uni as you can. Do a lot of groundwork with your mare, build up trust. She's still young and has a lot to learn, good for you that you decided to avoid any violence in her education.
Miriam
Thanks Miriam,
I have had her back check today and the physio take a look at her and she was brilliant. My mare is a little muscle sore and has minor A symmetry at withers on right side and developing muscle tone on the left pelvis. She says its nothing major but can be improved by hacking lots of straight lines, lots of canter in straight lines, hill work, reinback to trot, halt to trot, trot and canter poles. So got plenty to work on. Yet this isn't as easy as it sounds. Her napping is problematic and she is a typical chestnut mare and when she is sore/stiff and doesn't want to work through it even if its for her benefit. Physio said, if we don't develop her strength in her hind quarters she will develop further/permanent problems once she has stopped growing and demands increase on her body. ekk! So she got two days off to recover from physio then we start again with hacking. Should be interesting and maybe dust off the old back protector!
I think I will find out how to put her forward for Monty's demo and see what happens.
Thanks
Em
Hi Emma,
I see it's not easy doing what your physio suggests, when you're not able to ride her as you'd be supposed to. Did you longline her? Is she OK with working on the longlines, without the riders weight to carry? If you watch Monty's lessons on longlining and those on horses that have been single-line- lunged, I guess you can get an idea on how to build up her strength without risking her and your own(!) safety. Stay safe!!!
Since you write that Monty will be at your barn, I presume you're in the UK, this means you could get a certified Instructor helping you with your young mare.
Miriam
Dear Emma. Reading your story I have understood that your horse was better some times ago after having been "broken". As I often say, the development of a horse is not linear, regress sometimes is normal. My general principle is to go back some steps in the education, start again with the basis. Example 1: restart leading exercisis in the roundpen and outside (without rider). Lot's of "PIC"`s, small steps forward but consequent.
Example 2: Lead her passing the "dangerous" angle, then let her pass on the lunge, then alone, then with the rider.
Example 3: Try to work on the motivation. Short "lessons" of some minutes-reward-pause. When she is doing something very well: stop immediatly the work and remove all the tack.
I think this is the interesting part of the work with horses: you have to try to find the right way.
Be patient. Good luck.
Rudi
Hi Emma - I am pleased you had the physio to check her back as that was my first thought. When they are young they can easily pull their back muscles while out of work. Especially if it is winter and the ground is slippery. She sounds a little like me chestnut mare Nicky -she has similar back issues and behaves similarly to yours when her back is sore or she has not had sufficient excercise - doesn't nap just jumps around and does those little rates. I usually check with her physio then if her back is Ok frequent riding and pole work. My physio and chiros suggest lots o hill work and pole work preferably at walk and trot with minimum cantering and circle work initially. Hope she improves soon.
Hi Emma, some great advice for you here. May I offer some thoughts about human behaviour that may help. My thoughts stem from labelling theory and studying the language we use around horses. "Chestnut mare" syndome is a typical example of labelling theory and is a very common belief in the horse world i.e. chestnut mares are a problem. The problem is, that because of this belief they get treated as "a problem" from day 1, this means that they can develop problems and so confirm our "belief" and so it goes on. Yes, mares can have slightly different issues due to varying oestrogen levels etc. but, as we know, there are problem horses of all colours and both genders. There are also fantasically behaved chestnut mares. It's a bit like saying "well, what do you expect from a red-headed woman?" On the language side, when we use phrases like "lazy, disobedient, naughty, etc etc." we adopt behaviours in ourselves that affect how we behave around horses. So, after all my pontificating there (!!) what's the solution? I think its important that we see our horses as horses who happen to be a particular colour based on their genetic profile and horses that we may have difficulty communicating with. When we think of them in this way we are less likely to get into conflict with them and more likely to be open to looking at imaginative ways of working with them and less likely to get stressed. This gives them the space and time to learn and work co-operatively with us.
Thanks for your support... over the last few days we have had some fun sessions in the round pen and today I have taken her into the school and led then lunged with single line over ground and raised poles. I can long rein with 2 lines but I'm not quick enough yet with the lines when she turns in/on her own and she will occasional reverse, rear with the lines and panics so 1 line is safer for now. She enjoyed the pole work and even though I only wanted walk and trot, she would land in canter which is pleasing with good balance and impulsion. After 15 minutes she was happy to canter a full circle with 2 raised poles and 2 ground poles so finished on positive. It took a lot of stopping and starting with a pat and a treat. She loved it! I feel confident enough to deal with challenging behaviour in the school (had few rears today-just didn't want to do it initially till she realised I had treats if she did do what I asked-praise & reward more like a bribe LOL) but hacking out is another story. We will see what tomorrow brings as we are going for a hack with another horse she knows well.
Mirim- I am in the UK and I have an instructor fortnightly and in the 6 months she has been helping me we have made lots of progress.
I have made the application for Monty's demo so we will see what happens but I certainly wont rely on it happening so for now carry on helping my mare the best I can.
Thanks
Emma
Hi Emma,
Good to read that you're moving forward with your mare!
The instructor that comes fortnightly is not a "Certified Instructor" in Monty's method, I guess.. I meant to seek help from one of Monty's team. You seem to do well right now, but you might keep this in mind, eventually.
Monty is a great advocate of praise and reward, but never in the form of treats. Giving treats can lead to undesirable behavior like pushing into your space, searching for treats and biting.The dominant mare in a herd would never allow another horse to come into her space and eat her feed!
Reward in the form of instant praise, release of pressure and stopping the work, when the horse behaves in a desirable manner, lead to more trust and a clear relationship.
Since you feel safer with one lunge, keep this going until you think it's the right monent to step things up.
I'd suggest you find the transition from one lunge to the longlines when your mare has settled down, by letting your horse get used to pressure from the outside line, reversing her so the lunge goes along the side that is away from you. Later on make a turn by using both bodylanguage and some pressure on the line, so she'll find her way with an outside line, without the risk of getting tangled up. When she accepts this, she might be ready for longlining. Until then, use bodylanguage to make her change direction etc., to make sure she understands what you ask of her.
Keep the good work going and let us know how you progress!
Miriam
Hi Emma, just to add, it may be that you are getting in front of her when longlining her which can then make her turn in/panic; or she is too close to the pen fence to make the turn outwards; positioning when longlining is really important so that you don't get in her way - Montys longlining videos are great but it also helps to either get someone to film you or to watch you and make sure you are in the right position.
Thanks for the long lining tips I will master it at some point. And I have watched all the long lining videos clips and they are useful but just going to take sometime. My riding instructor isn't certified by Monty's methods but is keen to use them especially with my mare and does her upmost best to help me in and out of the saddle and if she doesn't have the answer she is proactive in finding out and bringing it to my next lesson. Maybe I do need to look at one of the certified instructors thou but they are extremely expensive I believe. Will look into it!
Anyway, today I had a hack planned with a yard friend and they couldn't make it so I decided to go out alone so armed with my hat and backprotector we set off on a 30 minute hack around the farm ride that took little longer with the stopping and starting, napping etc. We set out nice and positive turn right to pass the hert cattle in the shed and she clocked the hay slipping over the sides and slammed breaks on and tried to turn towards, I ask her to walk on with light contact. She wouldn't move. Then turned to the left and to the right and she started going backwards to edge closer to the cattle and the hay. hahaha greedy mare! I turned her around facing the opposite direction I wanted her to go then turned her back by asking her to go forward with my leg. Yipee! We got over it! She was fine! Went past scary generators making lots of noise and past workmen fixing boats-looked but not bothered. Then got to a gate opened it fine and closed it-clever mare! Then something new appeared in the distance a drainage ditch had appeared with new stones, bricks and yellow paint-she planted her feet let her look wouldn't go forward after few minutes had a breather and asked her to revere up the track which she was quite happy with as we got side by side with the obstacle turned her around my leg asked her to go forwards and wasn't bothered with it anymore. had a little trot up the drive, not bothered by crossings, bollards, lines, few cars grids all ok. By this point nice and relaxed and working uphill into my contact marching forwards. We get to a Tjunction we are going right, Abi wants to go left or straight ahead as she can she her friends in the field-plants her feet does a little dance so turned her away asked for 3 steps backwards in the direction I want to go and turn her around my leg going forwards. Nice and easy! Then for the next 15minutes or so went lovely, pass half way, nicely and into my contact just walking. We even did a little legyeilding on the drive in and out from the curb, half halting on and back in paces. clever mare! Then turn left onto the lane we see a cat walking towards us which doesn't bother her and she carried on. Then the cat disappears into the hedge-well she didn't like that and shot backwards about 6 strides I managed to stop her by kicking on. gave her a pat asked her to woo! and walked on few strides then in the air on hind legs did a 180degree turn and at a canter 6 stride in opposite direction.She tried to run pulled her up and she was snorting clearly upset. I couldn't even hear or see the cat in the hedge. I asked her to stand drop my reins removed my leg and just rubbed her withers and gave her pat and talk to her. She stopped snorting and she just gave in and walked on past the point as thou it had never happened. Then we get to a stretch of lane where she can clearly see all the horses in their paddocks which really upset her-she reared and spun a few times because she didn't want to go forwards a few times I thought I was coming off but managed to wrap my legs around her and hold onto my balance strap or her mane just to keep myself or get my balance-after 15mins we eventually went forwards but I had to reserves up the lane by 15 strides until she would listen to my legs to turn and actually go forward. the last 5mintes was a pleasure, a long rein stretch for home. she got big pat and scratch. OM I am shattered thou but worth it and feel like I have done a work out or had an intense hours riding lesson. Anyway defo got a friend tomo to hack with, hopefully she will be a little calmer tomo hacking out. So Mirim with all this going on do you think I should just stick at it hacking out and dealing with her anxiety and behaviour or do you think a certified instructor could help? I don't have it this bad in the school thou quiet different with just few naps for the gate. What do you guys think?
Thanks
Emma
Just to confirm for Vicci that the chestnut mare syndrome is not an issue for me and I agree that it should not be. For anyone. When all is well my mare is one of the best behaved horses you could wish for.. Hence if she does act up at all I am quick to search for a reason
Just to confirm for Vicci that the chestnut mare syndrome is not an issue for me and I agree that it should not be. For anyone. When all is well my mare is one of the best behaved horses you could wish for.. Hence if she does act up at all I am quick to search for a reason
Wow Emma,
You are a curageous person! From what you describe above it's not quite clear if you were safe all the time, remember that we build up adrenalin if we feel danger, and the horse synchronizes to us. You are the only judge of your own decisions, please think of the old proverb "there are old heroes and bold heroes, but hardly any old bold heroes"! Stay safe!!!
Now to your question: I know Kelly Marks' "Intelligent Horsemanship" has recommended associates all over the UK, that have not yet finished their certification, but have come a long way up the ladder. There might be someone near where you live who could advice you with your mare. Your ridinginstructor seems to have an open mind, which is great, she might profit from such a contact as well! It's wonderful to build a team of professionals around you....
Todays Q&A on the newsletter form Monty made me think of you right away! It describes the drivingpoint when working with longlines. This could be of great value to you, when finding the transition from one lunge to longlines ( or even without lines, herding excercise in an enclosure).
All this can help your mare to become a trusting and reliable ride for you, she's young and still learning.
Let us know how you're doing!
Miriam
Hi Emma - well done for arriving back safely! You had an amazing, thrawt with danger ride and I believe you were very lucky NOT to have had a serious accident. Please remember that when you take a young, nervous horse out like this you are not only putting yourself in grave danger but your mare too and she doesn't have a helmet and safety vest on. You need to build up your mare' s confidence and trust in you and exposing her to a scary ride is NOT the way to do it. Lots of ground work, join up and lots of riding in an enclosed safe are essential before you hack out. When you do decide she is ready to safely take out then do not do so unless she can be taken out with another older,relaxed horse that has done it all many times and is not likely to get spooked in her presence. Thi way you will build up her confidence until you can safely ride out by yourself. If you do not have a riding friend with a sortable horse then initially lead yor horse out with the dually and a long lead rope that will give yo more control if she does spook. Apologies if I sound too authoritarian - that is something that comes with age and experience!
Apologies all for the typos above!
Thanks Miriam,
I have been out hacking today on same route as I took previous day with 2 other horses and she was brilliant not one spook or nap. It was a lovely peaceful ride. So its obvious she doesn't feel safe and comfortable without other horses at the moment. So hacking out alone for now maybe isn't such a good idea as I don't want to or intend to stress her out. I am going to spend the day at the yard tomo and go in the round pen. Join up without lines is easy and fairly instant. Then I will have a play with 2 long lines and see how we get on.
Thanks for you support.
Emma
Sounds good, Emma.
Maggie thanks for you advice but I was in control the whole time when I hacked her out and I have been riding since I was 4 yrs old and horses since I was 12yr so I know if I'm in a situation where its out of control. I simple bale or get off yet I prefer to do neither as this could teach her that if she plays up she will simple get off my case then it becomes a continuous cycle. From my early posts I said, my mare had been hacking out from 4weeks after returning from being broken all through the summer with no problems what so ever. Yet after the winter with little hacking opps she started getting anxious and naps. She appears to be more socially aware of her surroundings and has now made friends with other horses in the barn and out in the fields. I ride her 3/4 times a week and do ground work 2/3 times a week either in the roundpen or lunging in the school. She was completely untouched when I bought her in January 2012 and spent 3 months on getting to know her from Join up, halter braking her with a dually,using a mit on a stick to brush her in places she wouldn't allow me to touch to picking her feet up with a towel so that I could and the farrier could tend to her hooves. So we have come a long way. I would no way put myself or her in danger not only do I wear a back protector and hat when I riding she wears boots & over reach boot as well. But at the same time if you don't take risks (measured) then she might as well stay in the field and be a companion. Yet I didn't buy her for that and I certainly haven't paid for and spend 100s of hours and hours in schooling her. Plus she has a brain and is too intelligent to waste away in a field and be a horse that comes out for occasional attention as some do. We have spent lots of time in the schools and enclosed spaces its time for her to see the world and enjoy life beyond the confines of the yard. She really enjoyed todays hack and it is down to confidence with her, yet I know we will get it back but I have ridden her at her worst and have something to work from now. She is unbelievably easy and pleasurable to handle on the ground and I'm working on transferring that to saddle no matter what we are doing, where we are going. I certainly don't claim I have all the answers and as human beings we learn new things/skills/knowledge all the time.
Thanks for your support :)
Hi Emma,
What a good progress you have made, riding out with other horses!
When you take the next hike out, play with letting her lead the group for a while, then when she accepts it, let her find comfort behind the others, only to let her come back to the first position again after a while. Reward her courage by giving her a break and follow the others.
She should find value in being brave...
Keep us posted!
Miriam
Good idea Mirim will do. Had a fantastic lesson on her this evening with my instructor. We work on rein back (still needs work but its a start) then striaght into working trot...the power in her hind leg was amazing lovely forward and swingy. then did some leg yeild in walk/ trot just asked for 3/4 strides bk to the track n she could do that with ease. To finish off trot poles n she even offered canter few times coming out the otherside she never done that b4 n canter the striaght side of school. no real naps! she had fun n so did I. really pleased!
Fine Emma!