Hi all,
A friend of me bought a few weeks ago a 4 year old mare.
She is well trained and a very friendly and a kind horse. She listens very well and is a clever horse (learns quickly), BUT when you want to pick up one of her rear legs/feet she kicks out.
You can brush the legs, you can touch the legs, but you can't pick up. She does it with both rear legs, she will kick that leg out what you want to pick up.
My friend asked the former owner and she knew that the horse was doing this (she didn't tell my friend when she sold the horse to her!!! and my friend didn't check!!!), but the former owner didn't know what happend to the horse.
I was thinking of starting with the stick with the "hand" on it, but the point is that she prob. excepts this, because I don't pick the leg up.
The farrier is using a bowed walkingstick to lift the leg, but it is still dangerous.
I red about those hoof (kicking)rings in the other topic and I thought maybe that's an idea....
I like to help my friend with a few thinks, but this is going above my experiences.
Is there anybody out there who can give advice on this what I/we can do?
Thank you, May.
Hi May,
I have a question.
Is the horse really kicking out, straight out or to the side?
Is it with a lot of force or does she coil it up under her?
The reason I ask is, most horses will pull their legs up under them because of reflex of the tendons when the leg is lifted and this appears to be a kick and the human will panic and then move back from the horse and then the horse picks up the fear and steps away.
Having said that, I will tell you about STAR and my experience with her feet.
For months she would not allow me to pick up her left hind foot, she would recoil, side step and avoid it in every way.
My farrier did not have too difficult of a time but he was quick about it.
I then started to massage her hind quaters around the hip area and down her leg. Some days she would not like this at all, others she liked it.
I put her on bute powder for 3 days and since then she allows her foot to be handled.
I'm not saying this is this horse's problem but it is worth looking into. Perhaps the horse has been used roughly when the foot has been lifted, too much turned outward, and this has caused a problem in the hip or hock joints.
Have this ruled out, if possible, then have someone who is not afraid of the hind quaters and knows what they are doing to approch the hind feet until the horse allows this.
As you said she is fine with touching it but not lifting it.
Hope this helps,
Ronda
Hi May
Yep as Ronda said there maybe pain issues.
Also I note there is an entry in the Q&A May 20.09 re farrier. Monty used to have a great DVD called Fix up and that also showed schooling and preparing for the farrier with the dually. The Dually can help a lot to school a horse that may have learnt to kick out to get the person to drop the foot. Also Ian one of the trainers at the intelligent Horsemanship training center Hartsop Farm believes that when the foot is lifted off the grouns some people lift it to high for the horse and that moving the foot in small circles close to the ground can help the horse to relax. Obviously for your friend it will depend on when the horse kicks i.e as soon as the foot is lifted or a second or 2 after, a window of opportunity.
Also another thing to consider is something I think called stretch holt (something like that) it causes a horse to snatch the leg back when lifted and this can sometimes be thought of as kicking, but it's a reaction the horse can't help.I think something to do with the tendons, but can't remember the name properly.
Gosh May there is so much to consider and think about, hope have helped a little.
Good luck
Katie
Ah May just noticed that in the Dually lessons there is one preparing for the farrier, it might help.
Cheers Katie
Hi Ronda and Katie,
Thank you for your questions ans suggestions.
The horse kicks immidiatly when you touch the foot and want to lift it. She kicks really out to the back, straight out, very fast!!
This is a difficult one I think, because there are more possibilities what can be wrong with the horse.
It can be pain, a reflex of the tendons, stretch holt,problems in the hips, etc...
Ronda what is bute powder? I can't translate the word bute.
Or maybe Miriam can tell me in Dutch?
I will go next week to my friend and will see what happens, maybe I can video it and put it on You Tube, so you can see it.
I told my friend to start massaging her horse, it will never hurt her so....
You will hear from me soon.
Have a nice weekend,
May.
Hi May,
Phenylbutazone (bute)= in an analgesic, or painkiller
Stringhalt = a reflex of the leg during movement, caused by tendon problems. Not something a horse will do when standing still, as a reaction to someone picking up the hindfeet.
Your idea of picking up the foot with an artificial arm seems a very good one, as long as you feel safe doing this. Sometimes you might also have a rubber mat behind the horse, just hanging, so the kicking leads to nothing. Monty does this with mustangs that kick out violently in the gentling-chute. If you use the arm, keep it there as long as the horse kicks, take it away as soon as he relaxes. This way the horse teaches the arm to go away, desensitizing himself.
You seem to have a good sense of what might be something you can handle and what might be too much for you state of experience. Monty has one great help here: can you still smile, doing this kind of work with the horse, then it's OK.
Stay safe,
Miriam
Hi May,
Here I am again, I re-read your post and realised I didn't go into the "kicking rings".
These are used for horses that kick their stable doors or -walls, when feedtime comes or any other time they think they need attention. The problem you describe with such a young horse is totally different in my opinion. Some young horses didn't learn to give their feet in a proper way, it's time she learns it, but with patience and love. What helps you most is for her to realise the kicking doesn't keep you from picking up her feet. Here you need the "arm", so your personal arm is never in danger.
Miriam
Hi May,
When a horse kicks IMMEDIATELY when you touch the FOOT but not the legs, I agree with Miriam.
This is lack of control, she needs to be taught to give properly.
Also, straight out like that takes a lot of power, therefore for me, rules out pain. Seems more aggressive to me.
You be careful, I love the rubber mat idea, that's great.
If I come accross a horse that kicks I will do this.
You stay safe, OK,
Ronda
PS: Miriam I have heard of gentling chutes but I didn't know Monty used them. What dimensions would his be and constructed out of what materials, thanks.
Ronda
Hi Ronda,
Monty uses them for untouched horse, with an area in front that is just large enough to not let the horse reach the end of the longline when it comes out.
It's a corridor, wide enough to let a horse pass through, but not let it turn around in it. There are panels on both entrances for guiding the horse, first through it and later to let it stand still before the doors are closed in front and behind the horse. Actually there are two parts, so you can have two horses at the same time inside, separated by a sliding door between them, these doors all have a solid wooden covering up to breast hight, above that metal bars, so the horses can see eachother. The front door has horizontal bars, wide enough to pass your arm between them, so you can touch and desensitize, put the halter on and still be safe.
The front doors can be opened at two levels, one lower level to touch the legs and body with the artificial arm, and then the whole door to let the horse out into the area in front of the chute.
The whole construction is very solid, all metal bars and wooden panels, one feels safe working with it.
I've seen a earlier form of it on the video " You and your wlid horse" by Monty, this time the area in front was much bigger, so Monty could work the wild one from the second horse's back.
Hope this describtion gets you a picture!
Miriam
Hi Miriam and Ronda,
Thank you so much for the explanations, this helps a lot.
My plan is to make first the Handy Stick.
I will do join up with Corrie (that's the name of the horse)before I am going to start on this horse with the Handy Stick. My friend will help me and will hold the horse or will do the Handy Stick. I will show her first what Monty is doing with the Handy Stick so she understands as well what the procedure is.
I will keep the Handy Stick on her leg untill she relaxes Miriam and then take it away.
I will be carefull and I am not going to play the hero who can do this job. I am going to see if we can hang that rubber mat behind the horse.
You will hear from me how it is going.
Thanks again,
May.
Thank you Miriam. It sounds pratical and safe.
Ronda
Hi May, Ronda,
Don't forget that the use of the Dually halter is going to be the best help you can get.
If your friend is not used to handling the Dually, I suggest that you hold the horse and your friend works with the artificial arm. Critical is your schooling as soon as Corrie kicks out, and giving relief, as soon as she relaxes. This way you might have a real lasting result in a short time.
Miriam