Hi Maggie,

I can't help you with this.
The thing what happens is that in the first place you excepted this behavour, but now with your golden retriever it can be more worse, because when your grandchildren will ride on him and a dog is coming into the paddock......... And I can understand this. And let me be clear probably he already had this behaviour before you got him. The only thing what I can think of is a buck-stopper. (I don't have any experiences with that) Look at Rudi's question in the forum. Maybe that is a solution in the situations with the dogs.
It was a good idea to do join-up, but I think that this is not the point. You are already his friend the only thing he is asking you as a friend is to help him with those dogs.

I don't say I am right, but these are my feelings.

Hope you will get a lot off suggestions.

Good luck, May.

Hi Maggie
.
I had a similar problem with one of my horses when I first started trying to learn Monty Roberts' techniques. In many of the videos Monty Roberts says that when there is a problem with join-up, its with us - not with the horse.
.
This was difficult for me to understand and accept at first because I could not see what I was doing wrong. Then one day my husband (who wasn't really interested in horses at that time) told me to get out of the way because I was doing it all wrong. He had watched Monty Roberts' videos, sent Ranger away (when I could not) and achieved join-up in less than 10 minutes. I was upset and amazed all at the same time.
.
In my opinion (and I am by no means a professional), horses are horses and equus is their language no matter how big or small they are. Join-up uses the horse's language, so if you are working with a shetland or a draft horse, the language is the same.
.
I am pretty sure that the only exception to this would be an orphaned foal who was not raised by his mother and other horses; and therefore has not been taught the language of equus by his/her family. Is you shetland an orphan that was raised by people? If so, then that could provide some insight.
.
I have found that you have to be very clear about sending the horse away. Your horse did not go away, because he did not percieve you as clearly sending him away - just like mine by the sound of it. Then you must keep them going away for the required flight distance. I'm not sure how far that is for a shetland, but I think its 1/8th of a mile or something like that for a big horse.
.
I have found that you will not get a genuine conversation happening unless you send them away, and keep them going like Monty does. I have had a horse try to "rush" our conversation once by trying to stop and bob her nose to the ground after only one or two laps of the round pen, but join up did not work in that instance. I have found that you have to really send the horse away and ask them back in only when the horse gives you the signs of his language for the join-up to be genuine.
.
Please anyone out there feel free to correct me if I am wrong on any point made here as I am still learning.
.
Watch the online videos again and again. I do, and every time get something new from them.
.
The kicking out is very cheeky, I found that a good join up and a bit of ground work helps with this. But I have also noticed that once you have joined up well, they don't seem to want to turn their bum to you... Has anyone else found that?
.
I don't think you have done any damage to your little friend, but if you intend to try this again, make sure you are very clear that he is to go away when you send him, and use join up as a way of building a relationship with him.
.
I hope this is helpful and not offensive in any way.
.
Kindest regards,
.
Gen
.

Thanks heaps Gen and May for your good comments. I would like to achieve join up with him as I do feel it will improve correct his cheekiness. I cannot have him kicking out at anything as I fear he may try it on my grandchildren. He has been so good up until now that I have allowed them to go into his paddock while he is free to cuddle and brush him. However now he has shown me this cheeky side I cannot allow them near him unless he has his halter on and even then I will need to be more wary and careful. It is so disappointing! He is plump so maybe I need to diet him too. I have never had a shetland before so didn't realise what a challenge they can be. I did try everything I could think of to make him go out for join up but failed completely. Maybe introducing someone else to do it could have the desired effect. This may have been the case with your husband, Gen, less familiar therefore a better predator. I initially had trouble making him go out on the lunge too but he has cottoned on to this very well now. The yard I was using was very boggy so maybe it will be better to waite until it dries out. Thank you both so much I really value your responses and help here.

Hi Maggie,
Remember Monty saying in a case like yours: "Do you think he would do it for me?", if the answer is yes, then he'd do it for you too. The only thing is how to get your bodylanguage right, your energy right, your breathing right and above all: are you in the right "pressure-zone"?
Horses have 3 zones, which are closing in from the outside to the inside:

=the "awareness-zone", where they realise your being around them
=the decision-zone, in which they decide to stay or to flee
=the pressure-zone

When you're in his pressure-zone, he tends to go "into-pressure", when feeling threathened. He shows this when kicking at the dogs, instead of running away.
You might have tried to send him away still being too close to him, I don't know how big/small your yard is, try a bigger field (and sure get him to loose some weight, always a good option anyway).
You can read some about the into pressure syndrom in "From my hands to yours".
Having someone else do your Join-up seems a nice option, try to solve your problem and see both your pony and yourself gain from it. You might ask someone to coach you,
but I think you'll be mighty proud of yourself if you find the right solution!
You'll both have learned a great lesson.
Will you keep us posted?
Miriam

Hi Maggie,
I don't think you did anything wrong. You have had great success with your other horses.
My first "horse" was a Shetland, she was a mare, pretty gentle, but still a pony. (I was only three)
I would like to ask you would he happen to be a stallion?
The reason I ask is my daughter's shetland was a stallion and she has some huge horses and some are mares and has had great success, using her own methods but with Boo Bear, it was much more difficult.
He was sweet but moody, being a stallion. She lost him this past winter and we all cried, sad when they get old.

Oh Yea Maggie,
Something that you might try also is, now this is crazy but it works for me when MY Star is in season and gets a bit cheeky and pushy with me.
I put my hand, shaped like a "C" over the top of her nose and make her step backwards as far as it takes until she gets the message.
Apparently they have two nerves running down the sides of their nose and it signals for them to learn without pain.
I don't squeese very hard, not a fly and not an egle, kind of half way in strength.
When I want her to pose for a picture and I want her fett in a perfect stance I touch each side of her nose until she stands for me. I learnt that from Pat.
Hope this comes in handy with the other advice you received.

Who....Wait for me Miriam !!!,

I do understand the awareness zone and dicision zone, but I don't understand the pressure-zone. I red the part of the pressure-zone in; from my hands to your hands. But my question on this is; is the pressure zone only the flancks or do horses also have a bigger pressure-zone, let's say like a circle around them. Like an energy circle where you can step in to or that you are not allowed to step in to because you can be a thread (like the dogs are doing). We teach our horses also to give us space, not to come to closely when we are doing something... if you understand what I mean. And if horses have a pressure-zone like a circle, is that circle from one horse bigger then the other horse? People have also energy circles (I am not hovering !!!)and sometimes you can feel a strong energy field or a weak energy field. Hope you understand what I mean and hope I am not talking rubbish.
Kind regards and thanks, May.

Maggie
If I am correct in my assumption you send the horse away so he flees from you. After a time 1/4 mile or so he will start to want to be with you since he senses you will not hurt him and when you turn your back to a 3/4 position you are telling him you want him to be with you and he will be safe. As you walk away and he follows (follow up is critical) you have established a relationship with the horse.
In the case of the Shetland Pony it seems that he already trust you, but you can test it if you have someone else in the round pen to start the horse with you in the pen as well. Follow Monty's Join Up indicators and f the Pony starts licking and chewing etc. Step out and turn your self to a 3/4 stance and offer the pony and invitation to join your. If he does you have achieved the join up. Make sure you rub him and have him follow you around in the pen.
Greeting you horse when you first meet with him give him a rub and a pat on the neck and wok around to see if he will follow. If he does your relationship is now established and he should be open to learning new things.

When a horse kicks he is saying either he is frightened or upset with his circumstances. Generally horses kick as protection. I would think that the pony may have been harassed by dogs and so he kicks at them to be sure they stay away. To stop this behavior you have to show him that your dog is not a threat to him which means you need to spend time with your dog and horse together.
As far as the pony kicking at you I would alway have a short rope with me or some soft object like a tennis ball and she he kicks or gets into that stance throw the rope or tennis ball at him and send him away. Make your self big and square up to him telling him that he cannot kick at you. You really don't even need to say anything it is just body language. If your horse knows that there are consequences to his behavior, and you are his leader, he will not kick at you again. Be careful that you stay out of his kick zone. Getting kicked really hurts!

Cheers

Thanks so much everyone - all great thoughts and lots of help. My Star your question of whether he is a stallion is an excellent one as I don't really know the answer for sure. He is very cheeky with my two older horses and paid huge attention to my mare when she cycled so maybe he is. I had a vet check when I purchased him but I did not think of asking this question!! I will get a vet to check that out! Thanks also for the nose pressure idea. I have used that to move him back from the gate so I can enter. He does resist it and tries to avoid it but usually moves back for me. Your idea of a tennis ball or something to hit his backside when he kicks out is a great one too Dennis. Maybe I will need to practice my aim! I had a lead rope with me at the time but missed him and he cantered off happily hence why I immediately caught him again and tried the join-up. I did try to do all the aggressive things suggested by Monty to make him go out and join-up has worked perfectly for me in the past just not with this fellow. My gut feeling is that he is just too quiet as he always comes to me and follows me around whenever I am in the paddock. I would just like to do join-up to gain that bit of respect that goes with the friendship. I have a kelpie (stock dog) and although he doesn't go into his paddock he does run up and down the garden fence watching my horses so this may have set him off. Thanks there Dennis too - kelpie may have to be tied up while pony is out. Dogs may also be coming into his paddock at night as some dogs do roam around the area. It is great to have all this help so thanks so much. You have all given me plenty to think about.

Hi Maggie
.
One thing I forgot to mention, is that I ask all of my horses to stand when I let them go, and stay for a few seconds while I walk away first. This way I am out of the way after letting them go before they start moving - thus reducing the likelihood of being kicked ;-)
.
Thanks also Miriam for mentioning the zones - that was probably a problem I had to start with when I was working with Ranger too. Being either too close or too far away to put the right amount and type of pressure on him. Thank you so much :-)
.
See you later,
.
Gen

Hi Maggie and all above,

I am still thinking of what is happening here, Maggie. (your first question)
I am always trying to get a picture and I red your question again and I come again back to the situation of the golden retriever and that the pony was kicking at you when you released him. My question is; where was the golden retriever when you released the pony? And then, when the golden retriever was near by you and your pony, when you released the pony, was it realy that he kicked out at you or was it to the dog or was it to tell YOU help me with this, I don't like this situation? What I mean getting your attention for his frightning feeling for the dog and you are his friend and can help him with this? Also because you said that the pony was not kicking out of you when you were doing join-up!!! And I asume there were no dogs around you when you were doing the join-up.

I agree on Dennis his note to train with your pony and your dog together to let the pony knows, the dog is no threat. I have to tell you that this was also my first intuitive thought. But as you all know here above now, I am a beginner and I am around my horses now for a few month.
I can't give a lot of solutions as you all can do. And I am "backing of" to questions and situations I never been in and can't give a good advice, but I learn from it and put it in my mind and maybe I can use it in the future.
I am thankfull that you don't say; oh there is May again with here beginner questions. And thanks for your complements when I am asking someting and that it gives you also food for thought.
Oké, back to the question of you and the answers....!!!!
To Dennis: You are saying; "When the horse kicks etc etc ....... spend time with your dog and horse together".
Oké, that's what I understand and I fully agree on that.
But then you say Dennis; "As far as the pony......etc."
What I am thinking now is are those two things you are saying two different situations where you have to train on with your horse or do you combine this.
And when you are combining these two isn't it right that you are going to learn your horse to run away from dogs and when the grandchildren are going to ride the horse and a dog is coming into the paddock he will run away from the dogs?
Oh help... I Hope you understand my twisted thoughts.

Thanks for reading this and hope I don't confuse somebody now.
Kind regards, May.

Just got around to reading this thread.
I don't think I can add to all the great advice here, but Maggie, keep in mind that Shetland ponies are very special personalities. Small horses with BIG egos. They have no conception about physical size and will happily boss around a whole herd of bigger horses.
.
Also, I was a bit confused about how you can not know if he is a stallion. (As it would only take a glimpse between his hind legs.) But then I realized you must mean if he is a pat stallion or rig - when one or both testicles (testes) are not descended in the scrotum so they never got properly gelded.
Mind you, some geldings - esp. if they weren't gelded until they were three or older, can show lots of stallion
behavior.
.
Slightly off topic, I can tell you about a (failed) attempt to catch the next door-mini-shetland mare, who got loose and broke into our field to flirt with a large KWPN hackney. (May will know what this is, I think, for the rest of you think Frieser)
No trick in the book would get this mare caught, but all the body language compelled the big horse to actually try to help out. It was quite amazing the way he really tried to herd this little lady toward the gate or get her positioned for me to catch her.

Hi May,
You got the picture, the pressure-zone is a "field" around the horse, sometimes bigger, sometimes smaller, where they will not flee, but go into pressure by instinct. Try to imagine a dog attacking a horse in the wild, should the dog be able to grab the horse's skin with his teeth and the horse would run away, the dog could rip off the flesh and this would mean a certain death for the horse, even if he could come away from this preditor. So nature made horses try to push into the preditor until they find a chance to kick or fight off their attacker.
It is important to know this when working with young horses, they can learn to yield to pressure, like moving away from the rider's leg, but this is a learningprocess.
There is a lesson on this subject here on the Uni, maybe this all makes more sense after watching it. You're getting good!
Miriam

Kicki,
That is so true, my daughter's Boo Bear was a stallion and the smallest in the whole pasture but boss of everyone.
My daughter stands almost 6 feet and she takes no nonsence from any of her animals, she rescues constantly but Boo Bear she underestimated his determination.
When her mares were in season she said, "Forget it Mom I'm not even going to try." He was a little monkey.
There is no doubt they are adorable but determined.
I only ever rode my Shetland (Lady), I never trained or tacked her up, the stable hands did that. Also, I was very young and only remember the rides, not the work but after reading this she probably gave them a run for their money, I bet.
I have my eye and this sweet little miniture horse. He's gelded and pure black but what a challenge and I love challenages so I'm thinking about it. He'll be a rescue again, I'm a sucker for a sob story, from animals and people and they know it.
I love that saying there are only three types of horses, geldings, stallions and Mares. I think that is so true. None are hopeless just need a little more work. I know you can succedd, Maggie. Just be careful, OK.
This is a funny story (now that it has been years ago):
My baby granddaughter was between 3-4 years of age and their small mule kicked her square in the chest, she went flying. It was one of our glorious winters, six feet of snow and she was all geared up for that and I often wonder what would have been the results if she hadn't been. She got up and said in french, I'm Ok and went right back to him. (My daughter was not at home at the time, her husband was and he is a city boy).
She still has no fear of anything that kid, she's ten now and has had her share of injuries, not serious. Can't help but love the farm animals, best way to bring up kids, I think.

Hi Maggie
I have a pony who hates dogs, he seems to be getting better because our dogs usually come with us on rides and as long as i'm on the ball and growl at him when he first puts his ears back he doesn't follow thru (altho he has taught my new dog some much needed lessons) but i have found the more you ride with your dogs the better the horse is and the better the dog is too!! :)

another idea that we sometimes do around (our new ones) horses we're not sure of - and what i get my 4 year old to carry with her - is a piece of poly pipe. lightweight, doesn't hurt. but has the desired affect because it echo's. and you can have a long or short one cut it to the desired length. My daughter just bangs it on the ground if the horses come anywhere in her direction haha even if they are still on the other side of the paddock lol not that she is nervous just likes banging it :) it's very handy to have a good bit of poly laying around.

I can usually get her shetty to go (and some of the bigger horses) by stomping my foot as i step forward. if they don't go be a bit more aggressive in your send of - you can back off once he's moving.

Hi Miriam,

Thank you for the explanation. That helps.
I saw the lesson(s) on the Uni and I will watch this again with this nowing now. See it with different eyes.

So when we are talking about the pressure-zone (sorry Maggie that I am still busy with that), how is it possible that I started with my 2yo Luuk grooming etc., and when he moved to me I just putted my left hand knockles (without a lot of pressure) into his flanck, spread my right arm direction tale (I didn't touch him with this hand, but 30 cm. from his body and made a "waving" direction to his body very relaxed) and looked him into his eyes...and he moved in the right direction, just two small steps without any pressure his side because I didn't feel this with my left hand? Then I thought haha... that is beginners luck, so I tryed the other side and he did the same without any pressure back?
I asked the owner and he was seeing me doing this and he said he never trained this with Luuk.
Is that because his trust and safety feeling with me is so
big and his pressure-zone very small? Or...???
To be clear Luuk is brought up by his mother Renske on the farm.

Sorry everyone that I am taking a by-path, but I think it could be worth to understand that one horse has got a bigger pressure-zone then other horses. And that we can deal with that in different situations. And hope that I am not the only one who is thinking and busy with this to understand.

And I am sorry if I am making things maybe more difficult.
Can you Miriam or anybody else explain this to me?

Kind regards, May.

Hi May,
I guess your Luuk has been touched and handled at the farm his whole young life, so he has already learned to yield to pressure. Training to yield to pressure you can do by keeping the pressure up until the slightest response, then immediately release the pressure. This way the horse learns that yielding is the easiest way to get rid of pressure. Tying a young horse for the first time also involves yielding to pressure, you want the horse to learn to come forward, when he feels the pressure of the halter. At first he will lean into it, so if you keep a gentle pressure up, he'll search for another answer. When he finds forward, release....
The awareness-zone of a wild horse will be much bigger than that of a domesticated one. Some older horses that have been ridden by different people all their lives, will even have a rather small awareness-zone.
Hope this helps,
Miriam

Hi Miriam,

Thank you so much. This helps realy a lot.
I watched the lessons into pressure and with your explanation as well it is clear for me now.
When I watch the Dually halter lessons you can see how Monty is speeding up with a horse and then in the first place the horse is pulling back/stands still/putting pressure on the lead. That's what you mean and I understand this much more better as well.

Thanks again for taking the time for me, you are realy a great help.
Very kind regards, May.

Thanks so much everyone. I have been away for a couple of days and it is so great to come back to so many good comments. The discussion on pressure zones and pressure has been great too so thanks for bringing that up Miriam and May. May - it sounds as if your Luuk must have had someone introduce pressure to his side previously as it would be unlikely for an untrained horse to react as Luuk did. Although I have had many horses in my life I guess I am pretty ignorant re stallions. I guess I thought their stones/balls/testicles were held up under there flesh more and not hanging down between their legs like in bulls. My little fellow certainly hasn't any obvious testicles so this then rules him out as a stallion which is pleasing. I guess he could be a rig but it sounds as if he most likely just a shetland with a big ego. Great to have the comments re shetlands I guess I am just beginning to learn what big egos they have and how different they are to horses. Thanks re the advice with dogs too. I am still taking my golden into the paddock with me and watching my shetland closely for any re-action - I usually have a plastic chaff bag with me so I am shaking this at him whenever he looks like he may have a go at my dog. It seems to be working. My kelpie is another problem as he was a rescue dog, difficult to train and animal crazy. Although he is fine to ride out with he is totally different when the horses are free and is always ready to round them up. I tried so hard to teach him to leave them alone and stay with me when I first had him but failed there too. Hence these days he is not allowed in their paddock. He is the same with my cattle and although I have successfully trained kelpies in the past this one seems untrainable for stock work. He would have had a bullet between his eyes if he had stayed on the property with his prior owner! Thanks for your thoughts May but my old golden wasn't with me when my shetland kicked out at me. He hasn't done it since and he has had plenty of opportunities to do so but I do not trust him to be reformed. Thanks too Gen for your great suggesting that I make my horses stand next to me when I let them go. My other five horses all do this automatically as they are very friendly and I usually have to shoo them away from me. My shetland usually stays with me too unless he is in a hurry to get to my other horses over the fence as he was the day he kicked out. He is loosing some weight now so thanks for that suggestion too. I do hope I haven't left anyone out as it has been so great to read all your great suggestions. I still wish to attempt join up again but haven't done so yet. I wont to be sure that it will work next time! I am wondering if I should try something really spooky to send him out such as plastic bags on a wand. Does this sound like a good idea or will I just scare him? If I can get him to join up with me then I would like my young grandson to try - maybe he should have the polly pipe idea to send him out??
Once again thanks so much to everyone for helping me with this problem. It has been marvellous to receive such a good response and so many good thoughts.

Hi Maggie,

You are the second one who is saying that, this is something Luuk learned already in his younger day's. Miriam said the same. I already asked the owner, but he said he didn't do the training into pressure. Probably.... because he is dealing with horses from his 12th and is now 70 yo he is doing this without lets say thinking, automaticly, I will ask him again.
When I tried this the first time on Luuk I was supprised that he was doing this and I thought he was a superstar and me to a little bit hahaha....
I watched the lessons into pressure, and if I listen to what Monty is telling, he says, that sometimes; a young one will do this automaticly.
I am sure you all are right in this part and I am coming back on the floor with my feet hihi...

Thank you and good luck with your little friend.
Kind regards May

Hi Maggie,
You sound a little down, my dear. You are doing the best you can with what you have to work with, keep a smile on your face.
You can do it, you have been successful before and you will be again.
Recues are hard aren't they and a challenage but you can do it.
Take care,
Ronda

Hi Maggie, I have an idea, do you want to try clicker training on both the pony and on the dog?

Thanks both My Star and Horse Addict. Your message is sweet My Star - I will try to keep a smile on my face! I will try to find more out about clicker training so thanks for that Horse Addict.

maggie, you can try Temple Grandin's book, "Animals Make us Human", if you want to learn about clicker training.

Thanks Horse Addict. I have recently read this book and really enjoyed it but there wasn't much detail on the clicker method given in the book. I will check out google.

Well guys,
I didn't understand about dogs bothering horses, never had that problem.
My youngest daughter is visiting from Ottawa and brought her Alaskan Huskie with her.
When My Star is in one of her pastures, Daisy(the dog) tries to go in with her and MY Star starts snaking and then turns her backend to her, lifts her tail and snorts a warning, wow.
My husband was in there and I strongly suggested he remove himself, he wasn't watching her body language. The dog was growling, the horse was snorting and there was going to be trouble.
I removed the dog and put her in our porch and calmed the horse down, she was a jumping. Our daughter had gone out, Daisy listens to her sign language very obediently.
Any dogs I've ever had knew to respect the horses space, this poor dog has been brought up in the city and has never been around horses.
My Star would not allow our ducks in with her, she had no problem with the chickens but not the ducks. They soon learnt to respect her space, though.
My heart goes out to anyone who is having problems with dogs and horses.
Ronda

Thanks Ronda. Yes untrained dogs can cause dangerous problems with horses. Thanks for this. It is hard having a kelpie in s semi urban environment as they are trained to round up sheep and cattle. They are fantastic dogs on properties as they work so hard and it is amazing to see what they can do. My Dad used to be able to send his kelpies right up a mountain by themselves to retrieve sheep at the top of the mountain. However even on a country property they have to be restrained when not working as otherwise they will go out on their own and work sheep and cattle for entertainment. My fellow knows to keep away from my cattle and horses if I am around but he hassles them by running up and down the fence as soon as my back is turned. If he does get out he does try to round them up and that is dangerous for him as well as the horses.
However I can take him out riding with me and he is fine and he is well trained for walking off lead in parks etc.
My golden retriever comes into the paddock with me constsntly as it was easy to train her. She just placidly walks around but she has learnt to give my shetland a wide birth lately!

Well, i have a welsh pony who i Joined-Up with, and it was hard but worked all right. Maybe it is just the nature of a shetland to have that sort of reaction.

That was a really long discussion...I would like to add some comments.
Personally I am convinced that there is something wrong in the communication with the pony. When I try to communicate with horse of my daughter it happens that it does not work at all. If my daughter is looking at the horse and raising the arm means for both of them: come. If I do the same thing it is "go away" for me and "come" for the horse. I am sure you will find the common language with time.
Kicking. I am always very concerned when I see small children handling ponies. The wirst injury that can happen is a kick in the face. I think the risk of beeing injured is often underestimated and small children should never left a lone with a pony. By the way: I don't think a buck stopper would resolve the problem.
Last comment. I like the clicker training. In my opinion the basic book is: Alexandra Kurland. Clicker Training for Your Horse.

Wow, have I just learnt a lot just now.
Never heard of a clicker method but I will be looking it up. Wouldn't that be great if it worked for me, yahoo !!!
My brother-in-law had trained dogs as well, it was amazing to watch the interaction between them.
He would whistle a certain way and the dogs would do something, then whistle another way and they would do something else, amazing.
How's it going with the new pony, anyway, coming around at all?
Clicker, here I come!
Ronda

Thanks Rudi and My Star. I will try to get a copy of Alexandra Kurland's book Rudi as I would like to learn more about clicker training. I still haven't attempted another join-up session with my shetland but still wish to when I feel fit enough to do so, the weather improves and the ground is dryer. My shetland hasn't kicked out at me nor my golden retriever again so I guess that is a good sign. Thanks Rudi for your comments re horses and children. I am very mindful of the dangers hence my concern re my shetland when he kicked out that one time. Although the grandchildren pile around him and brush him all over I am always with them and am forever reminding them not to go directly behind his heels. He is actually incredibly good when they are around and stands perfectly still and has no bite vices either so overall I am pretty pleased with him.

Good Maggie,
I just searched the web about clicker training. It seems simple enough but I'm not sure I will do it with my filly. It involves food and I'm nervous to give that a try with my girl.
I thought I could co-operate the two methods together but they seem to be so different, I'm sure I would get very confused and perhaps she would too.
So I guess for now I'll just have to be patient with myself and My Star and go along slowly with her and hope the winter holds off so I can get as much training as possible under our belts.
Hope everything continues to go well with him,
Ronda

I am just curious, but why would you try another method of training your horse? I would think that you would only confuse either the horse or yourself. Consistency is the one thing that you have to help you train a horse. As far as I can tell slicker training is just a programed response not unlike Pavlov's dog experiments.

Can anyone tell me the advantage of this type of training?
I am not trying to start an argument over this, but I am confused as to why

Cheers

Yeah, like you Ronda, I have a rescue horse too and I would be hesitant to train him using a method that involves food... Also Monty Roberts doesn't condone food rewards.
.
I prefer the methods we are learning here on the Uni to the others available, and I am finding that the more I learn, the less I feel that I have to deviate from what's here to achieve my goals.
.
Dennis also has a good point about consistency. Whatever method of training you use, you have to be consistent to avoid confusion.
.
See you later,
.
Gen

Thanks for the comments here and I agree with the sentiments expressed. I am interested in learning as much as I can about different techniques hence I would like to find out more about the clicker method. Rudi suggested it and I as I know little about it I am curious to find out more. Thanks again Rudi. I doubt if I would use it particularly if it is very different to Monty's methods. Just interested in knowing how it works as I already use carrots for positive re-enforcement along with Monty's methods and in my mind there is no inconsistency here. I also use food rewards for my dog. I may be missing the point completely but I see Monty's use of honey in the Centaur series as similar to my use of carrots. My Star you are ahead of me as I haven't had the chance to do the research yet. Apologies for mentioning carrots again but it was difficult to avoid it here. Certainly I adhere to your wishes not to deviate from what Monty is teaching us hence my agreement NOT to mention carrots again on this forum when responding to questions re general training. I will continue to respect this but here the questions became somewhat personal. I have given food rewards to animals when training all my rather long life with huge success. It is as impossible for me now to give up food rewards (ham) as it would be for you to start using them, My Star. Hope this makes sense and that no one feels offended by it.

Checked out the Alexander kurland's Clicker Training for Horses web site. Interesting but too over the top for me! Far too gimmicky! I guess if you wanted to play games with your horse or teach tricks it could be fun but not for me. Nevertheless interesting to browse and have some knowledge on. At least now I know what it is all about!

Good on you Maggie. Its good to check things out for yourself. That way you can make an informed decision on the things you do and don't like. Clicker Training isn't for me either, but its pretty amazing what some people have achieved with it.

Hi Maggie,

Well there is a lot we all talked about. And all good suggestions. It is you and also other students what you will do with these suggestions and work on it.

I want to react on your; the honey on the bit and your carrot.
How I see it is, that Monty is putting the honey on the spoon/bit to let the horse getting used to it. Honey is something most horses like and it will help them to accept the bit. When the horse is used to the bit I am sure Monty will not put any honey on the bit after that.
I am not sure if he will do this with all horses, to train them with honey on the spoon/bit, but we are here talking about horses who are afraid/headshy or don't want to except the bit. It is someting negetive turn into something positive using the honey!!!!

For me here above is something totaly different then when I give my dog or horse a treat.
When I trained my puppy labrador Raisa, I gave her very small pieces of cookie to let her know she did a good job. After a while when she did it right I stopped with giving her her cookie and gave her a stroke and with my voice I let her know that she did a good job.
I think when you are keep giving a treat to a dog or a horse when he/she did something right, it will be the treat where they are doing things for, like ha.... when my boss is asking me, I will do this, because I get a treat.
When I am calling Raisa now she is coming to me because she likes to come to me and not because of the treat. Sometimes I give her a stroke or say good girl to her and sometimes I don't say anything.
It has to be a normal reaction when you ask something the horse to do, it will react on this and then you can give a stroke. Otherwise he/she will do this because of the treat you are giving him/her. And the horse will ask for it when he did a good job.
I can understand what you are saying that you are doing this for a long time and it is difficult to stop this now, but maybe you can try little by little to turn it around. It is in your system and that's difficult to change, but IF you would like to change it, you can always do it. I am sure.

Kind regards, May.

Thanks so much May. This all makes sense but I DO NOT wish to change in this respect. Monty is fantastic and I enjoy learning from him but there are other great horse trainers whom I also respect and appreciate. Tom Roberts (An Australian born in 1900) is one of these and I used his book "Horse Control - The Young Horse" as my training manual for Tricka with fantastic results. I didn't know much about Monty's methods at the time but there is little I would have changed if I did. Tom Roberts basic guideline for horse education is "the avoidance of punishment while encouraging the precept "that will profit you" or "that will profit you not". Not dissimilar to Monty's philosophy. We are all on a learning curve and as individuals we will naturally be selective in what we find works for us and add it to our tool kit. However we would be crazy to toss something out that has always worked in the past. This has been a very lengthy discussion and I am so greatful for all the great contributions that have been made but perhaps we have about worn it out. Time out as Dennis says! Cheers to everyone, Maggie

Hi MAggie
I have had a similar problem with a wee shetland who thought he was the boss of everyone - this one was ok with dogs but would talke flying biting attacks on his owner should the fancy take him, really struggled to send him away and finally succeeded by using a rattle botle similar to what dog trainers use and a short noisy pompom type device with a handle made from feed bags, this worked and we finally came to an understanding - I also noted that I had to look atmy body language and how I was putting my message accross and a shetland pony is a lot smaller thatn a normal sized horse so I found I had to work everything including hand gestures etc at a lower level (also eye coontact is the most important thing and this can be difficult to maintain with such a wee person) - I found videoing myslef usefull to help me learn where I was going wrong. I do have a friend with a shetland who chases dogs out the field as he feels it is his job to protect te herd when no one else is around - I guess the only way to get around this is to work with advance and reteat with someone with the dog on a lead and the the horse in a dually in a safe controlled environment after acheiving join up. God luck and hope my suggestions help ;0)

From what I watched and researched about the clicker method on animals, it can work but then giving food as a reward will almost work with any animal.
The elements of imprinting would be missing of course but some swear by it.
I guess I wanted a quick fix for MY STAR, it's been two years of consistancy and she doesen't seem to get it. I haven't had this problem with other horses but she is a challenge, being remidial.
I truly believe in Monyt's methods and will continue with them and do my best thinking postively that I will succeed, as Monty says if I can do it so can you.
Maybe not as fast and I wish I didn't live so far away from his farm, I'd take her there for one of the instructors to help me.
Ronda

Thanks Rowan Tree - this was great and just the type of advise I needed. I had thought about chasing him out with the idea of plastic bags on a wand/stick. However I have now decided to pass on join-up as my two failed attempts have just made him a bit nervous. In most respects he is a wonderful little horse - no vices like nipping and stands so quietly and still when the grandchildren are near. Now I am just concentrating on getting his trust back again. I have ordered a dually for him so that should be sufficient for discipline.