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Horse Behavior and Training

Is my boy stubborn or is it me???

By:
conniemacklill
Date:
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Hey guys

I'm working with my 5 year old Quarter horse. I've owned him since he was 2 and started training him about 5 months ago to take the saddle and to ride.
I've done join up with him a couple dozens times or more. He's a wonderful horse, full of personality, gentle as a lamb, will do anything I ask him, and is so easy going it's almost impossible to believe what he's doing when I climb in the saddle.
He just stands there, won't move a step. 
He turns his head back to me and I wonder if he's saying, "Why do you want me to go?"  From the first time I saddled him, he's never bucked or shown any resentment with the saddle or bridle. Let me add, he's easy to bridle also. 
I've long lined him numerous times and he does everything I ask him to do with the lines. I put my granddaughter on him and use one long line and get him to walk, trot and canter in the round pen with no problems at all.
I have saddled a couple more horses up with him and tried to get him to follow them but NOPE, NOTHING!!  I  bought the Giddy Up rope and used it but it seems to hurt his feelings more so than to  get his attention. Any suggestions??
Thanks
Connie Mack
conniemacklill
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I need to add another comment to my last post. Although he is the youngest horse in my herd of 5, he's the Alpha male. I spend time watching them all in the pasture and he is definitely in command out there. He's the leader and they all do as he wants. Could this have any bearing on this problem?
Debbie Roberts Loucks, USA
Hello! 2014 Cyberhunt winner 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed 650 lessons completed
Hi Connie, 
Part 1 - how many Join-Ups should we achieve with our horse?
I dug around in the Q&As section on the Uni and found this: What do you mean when you say, “Do four to ten Join-Ups with your horse and then live by the principles of Join-Up for the balance of your horse’s life”?
Monty’s Answer: What this statement means is while Join-Up is the core guideline in your relationship one does not tell the horse the same full story every day. When I state that one should live by the principles of Join-Up for the balance of the horse’s life, I would like to outline this suggestion in the following manner.
A good partner for the horse will renounce all forms of violent punishment. One will eliminate raising a hand to the horse or even raising the voice. One should replace any form of violence with the theory that suggests "Make the good things easy and comfortable and make the bad things uncomfortable and work-laden.
With these principles in mind one should put a horse to work every time their behavior is negative; stop the work, give a rub and create a comfortable environment every time the horse is positive. Learn to live by the principles of PICNIC: positive instant consequences and negative instant consequences.
In addition to those principles applicable to the training, one should apply them to everyday tasks. Catching a horse in the stable for instance should be done through Join-Up principles. Eyes on eyes when they want to move away from you. Eyes away when they decide they would like to come to you.
These same principles apply to a large area or pasture the same as they do a stable. One should take care never to catch your horse and then immediately apply pressure to the horse. One should be mindful of maintaining a desire within the horse to be with you and not away from you.
Debbie Roberts Loucks, USA
Hello! 2014 Cyberhunt winner 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed 650 lessons completed
Part 2 - I know that your question was about the balking tendency of your gelding (I assume?) so I can offer some thoughts on that too from the Uni lessons. Can I also assume you have watched the Walter Won't Go Forward lessons because you have a Giddy-Up rope? 
What happens when you ask him to back up?
conniemacklill
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Debbie
When I long line him he does everything I ask including backing, or turning in any direction. Only when I actually get on the saddle to ride is when he just stands still. He may move a few steps sometimes and has often but he mostly will just stand still, looking back at me at times with a puzzled look on his face. I've watched the videos you mentioned but will watch them again to make sure I am following the proper steps. I try to follow Monty's advice as close as possible including body language, eye contact and temperament. He has never shown any resentment with me on his back nor does he act up in any way. I'll let you know next time I work with him on the progress.
Debbie Roberts Loucks, USA
Hello! 2014 Cyberhunt winner 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed 650 lessons completed
There Is a new series we are just finishing about a horse (Ready and Perfect) who was fine on the ground until Monty put a rider up. Stay tuned :)
bahila73
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Hi Connie;  5 yrs of age is a good time to start training a horse.  As a long time breeder of Arabian horses, I have found that when starting a horse with taking the very first steps with a rider on his back is a crucial step for the unridden horse.  Since the possibility of a buck might be lurking ahead, I try and ask for the initial movement to come from the back end in the form of a disengagement.  The horse should be very clued into this move from the groundwork segments that we all do.  When stepping across with rear legs, the horse cannot go into a bucking sequence.  To help the horse do this move, I sometimes call on another person to be on the ground with a lunge whip and flag to assist in helping me with the cue for the movement.  If the horse takes one step across, stop and praise, and then ask for another try from him.  You do this on one side only until he can perform the move without the assistance of the ground person.  Usually, when rearend becomes unlocked, the front end will follow until completely freed up.  Regarding the cueing, the horse will have no idea what you are asking when lay your foot on his flank area.  So you have to help him by pulling [flexing laterally] with the reins to the left back to your pockets  I do not ask for the other side until he can walk out, trot and sometimes canter.  When we have another person in the roundpen helping with the flagging, the horse finds that he has more of a reason to move out.  The newly backed horse must find a way to create a balance because of the additional weight of the rider on his back.  That is exactly why I continue this approach until the horse is relaxed and moving freely.  Remember that horses learn in layers, do please be patient.  You will get by this.  I hope this will help you.

Bud 
conniemacklill
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Thanks Bud for the advice. I will attempt this next time I work him and have someone helping me.
I am excited about the new videos Debbie mentioned. 
I will keep you all posted on the progress.
Connie Mack
JoHewittVINTA
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Hi Connie. No, he's not being stubborn. Groundwork is important but this is done without significant weight on his back. He has to figure out how to manage moving his legs & not falling over - watch any small child trying to carry something relatively bulky & heavy for the first few times. All good advice so far to which I would add this thought - it would make more sense to the horse to move towards something of value. So, instead of heading him in a random direction head towards somewhere he'd choose. Could be his best mate or perhaps where he gets his feed. All you really want to achieve here is to set in his mind that moving with your weight on his back is a good thing, a fun thing. My Kirk was very much like your boy. He worked really well, even accepting a light teenager on bareback without any negativity at all. When I upped the anti - added a substantial saddle & my extra 20 odd kilos he stood very happily, ears pricked & paying attention. Having jiggled about a bit, wiggled my feet about in the stirrups etc we left it at that until the next day, giving him much praise. Next day, totally happy to be saddled, came willingly to the mounting block, stood like a rock whilst I got on & got settled but then clearly thought his job was to stay put - a logical conclusion on his part. We gently encouraged him - Jordan lead him a few steps but as soon as Jordan moved away Kirk stopped. No fussing, not worried, rock solid but clearly happy that standing still was his best option to get praised. Jordan came back in & gently moved him forwards. This time we got 18 or 20 calm steps before he halted. Much praise & a base to go from strength to strength. The best bit was Kirk was so pleased with himself - I couldn't have hoped for a happier partner. Cheers, Jo.
Debbie Roberts Loucks, USA
Hello! 2014 Cyberhunt winner 100 lessons completed 150 lessons completed 200 lessons completed 250 lessons completed 300 lessons completed 350 lessons completed 400 lessons completed 450 lessons completed 500 lessons completed 550 lessons completed 600 lessons completed 650 lessons completed
https://montyrobertsuniversity.com/training/2031189232

Ready and Perfect is ready to view :)
conniemacklill
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Just want to thank Bud, Jo and Debbie for the great advice.
It took myself and both my granddaughters to accomplish the task, but we eventually succeeded. We used a flag as Bud mentioned and I put one granddaughter on him with the other behind him to shake the flag just enough to get his attention. When she would give him the cue to move forward I would lead him a few steps then let him go on his on as far as he would. We would immediately praise him and then continue.
We only worked with him about 45 minutes at a time so as not to give him to much to think about. I have a 22 acre trail on my property and I have had him on it three times now. Myself once and then both granddaughters following two other horses with riders.
I want everyone to know that I have worked with and owned horses all my life. (69 Years)
I grew up with a father that was very kind and gentle and taught me the same way. He trained mules to plow and to pull wagons. He would say that mules are the smartest four legged animals in the world. Stubborn only because they were so smart. My reason for mentioning this is because at one time I believed nobody could teach me anything about a horse. 
But then I found Monty Roberts!!!
 I joined the UNI and it has changed my life and complete outlook about horses. I've learned more in the last year studying Monty's videos and his actions with horses than you can imagine. Some of the videos I.ve watched 20 times over. I've always known horses speak a language but never understood it until I joined.
Sorry for rambling but I do appreciate all the advice and wanted to thank everyone again.
Connie Mack

JoHewittVINTA
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Hi Connie. This seems like a really good time to use this thread to talk about stubbornness. See, like you I've been around horses all my life - not as long as you, 62 years & I had a go at motorcycles which you can kind of see the connection ( or not ). I can't see where stubbornness fits it nature. Yes, the mare who defends her foal - is that stubbornness or just motherly protectiveness? I think stubbornness is a human thing - coz we're difficult folk. We want, NOW, we want exactly this & we're focused. Perhaps we're the ones that are stubborn - stick at it no matter what signals we get, till we get what we want. I found Monty about a decade ago. Yes, I've learnt so much, studied lessons over & over - like you. Recognised the more suitable solution to so many scenarios. STUBBORN  seems to legate to humans more than flight animals- who agrees? Cheers, Jo.
conniemacklill
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Jo
I do agree with you whole heartedly!!! Stubborn does legate to humans more than flight animals!!
You mentioned motorcycles. I was a Police Officer for 21 years and was a Motorcycle Cop for 18 of those long forgotten years. I have also owned a motorcycle since I was 14 until this past year when I sold it and made working with horses my only past time and passion.
The UNI is a great tool, full of rich knowledge, from folks all over the world and from my experience it is a must for anyone needing to, or wanting to learn anything about the proper way to handle horses.
I have enjoyed every video I've watched and check it every morning when I get in my office
Thanks again for responding
Connie Mack
Kicki -- Sweden
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Jo,
That is a nice idea. :)

My two cents on the subject?

I partly agree, because it is way too easy for us to describe horses in "human" terms that doesn't fit intent, only the observed behavior.
For example, a horses is not mean by intent, but will protect itself against perceived/expected discomfort by acting in ways we would describe with that word because A) they will hurt us, and B) it makes them look nasty. ;) 

But partly, I don't quite agree, because I also think a lot lies in the interpretation of a word; what we put into it. 

All the things you described for yourself under "stubborn" could also be labeled as "persistent" which is (to me anyway) a more positive connotation of "stubborn behavior" and maybe a more suitable word for any animal that has its mind set on something. And their minds are usually set on one thing: survival! Which includes; get nourishment, mate, save energy and stay out of harms way. 

Persistent also gives a less negative sense because we usually appreciate it when they persist with what we ask and therefor might cause us to observe the reason for that behavior in a more objective way when it is displayed opposite that of its owner's wishes/commands.

So, instead of writing any being off as "he's just stubborn!" - (sub-content of that being:"I will take it out of him so he darn well does what he's asked!") - we might try more persistently(!) to find out what brought this behavior on and find a way to change it. 
Goes for a toddler as well as animals - be they of the prey or flight variety.

That said, I can easily imagine that no man wants to admit a mule is smarter than he, so when the mule makes a smart choice not to go into a ravine full of rattlers, the man will call that mule stubborn. LOL!

conniemacklill
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Kicki
You make a great point!!
Maybe "persistent" is the word we as humans need to use instead of stubborn. To me it's  like the more stubborn we actually are, the more persistent we are to accomplish anything we set out to do. Great comment. 
Thanks
JoHewittVINTA
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Hi. Been giving this a bit of thought. Looking at the most likely scenarios when horses are called stubborn - won't go forward, won't cross something, won't stand still, won't jump an obstacle, won't be caught & in each case there are logical reasons why the horse feels compelled to say NO. Often instinct causes the horse to be cautious ( water, deep mud, dark & confined spaces, unusual & unfamiliar surfaces ) or they detect something we are oblivious to ( an unfamiliar scent or sound ). Left to their own devices, horses in the wild are not stubborn - there is nothing to be gained & their own survival is at stake. If we accept that horses are willing to partner us in our equestrian endeavours then logic dictates that we ban the concept of STUBBORNNESS from our thinking & adopt the much more logical approach of EDUCATION. The horse that doesn't want to be caught may be expecting to be made uncomfortable - poorly fitted equipment or lots of hard or boring work or harsh treatment. From the horses standpoint, what humans label as stubbornness is either " I am frightened " or " I don't understand ". Neither of those situations deserves the most usual human reaction to ' stubbornness '. Cheers, Jo.

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