So a little history:
This mare is only 3yrs old, still a baby. She's been in my care for about three months, and I mean care because she's foundered in her left front hoof pretty bad, and had laminitis in the right front as well.
So I cannot do join-up! She cannot run, she can walk comfortably because of her padding (treatment), but to make her run would be cruel.
However she's untrained and it creates a problem: I need to walk her as part of her healing. She will follow my lead well, and will back up as well when I ask. But she doesn't get the "sweet spot" concept just yet, I school when she walks in front, but she'll just back up and refuse to walk forward. I school again and she will come off the pressure and continue, but again it seems she's not getting it?
When she's scared, like in the arena (she was hurt there before....) she will follow me well, but once she knows we're leaving she always tries to rush it. I make her stop, but once we walk again she'll barge ahead trying to leave.
When I'm walking her out of her paddock she'll also try to graze if I stop or talk to people. She cannot eat grass at all, as part of her treatment. I school her, back her up, but she'll always try it again after.
She also doesn't seem to "want" to catch me or follow me, just does it to avoid pressure. :( I don't have to chase her, but she doesn't come toward me unless I have her food, or the lead rope is on.
Where do I start with this girl? I really feel she needs to see me as the leader, but I cannot do a join-up in her condition.
Thanks!
Hi homemadehorse,I wonder if it wd be best to treat her feet first as major importance (thehappyhoof@yahoogroups.com)and then move on to ground work.
You could be firmer with the Dually to encourage her to come up off pressure without having her do more than walk beside you. As to rushing the gate I wd tend to back her off it when she rushed towards it, back her off and eventually let her leave with you when she stays at your shoulder on a light line.
Her feet are definitely being treated first, hence why I didn't even start slowly until she could walk comfortably.
I will continue to go slow for mostly likely a year or two, the time it will take for her p3 to stabilize and a new hoof wall to grow.
I'll try your suggestion on the rushing, thanks, think it will help. :)
Hi!
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I agree with Sasafras. I just wanted to add that the therapeutic massage rings or kicking rings decribed in Monty's "From My Hands To Yours" might really help her feet.
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Best wishes from Hamburg, Germany
Jasmin
Hi homemadehorse - welcome to forum! I am assuming you have a dually - is that correct? If you have a dually this problem should be quite easy to overcome so my gut reaction is that you are not using the dually effectively. Watch Monty's videos again. For discipline it is best to give a sharp, jerk with a straight arm not a continuous pull. When disciplining I hold the dually about 10 inches (26cm) from the discipline ring. For back up from the near side I am standing on the side of my horse just in front of my horses shoulder, Monty's sweet spot, eyes on the shoulder, left arm straight with elbow locked holding dually 26cm from discipline ring. From this position I wil give a tug on the dually and step forward and saying "back up". If there is no response then the tug becomes much sharper and harder. It will not be long before you can just step forwards and the horse will move back with you with no tug at all. Remember quick immediate release when the horse responds and plenty of strokes where they like it best and soft voice with encouragement. Similarly for walking forward but this time you are facing the same way as your horse, swap arms and your horse should be standing in the sweet spot with her head at your shoulder. Sharp, firm jerks on the dually with a straight arm is the secret and holding the lead rope about 10 inches from to the discipline ring. Always remember that it is the quick release that is the reward that your horse responds to not the tug. Occasionally my horse Tricka will try to be a bit naughty especially when she is leaving her mate. She may try to pull in front of me, or put her ears back at me. She is immediately disciplined for either of these. When she was younger she used to be quite hard to handle but I found backing her up and then circling her with the dually helped. Circling was good as I could keep her off me and stop her from trying to walk over me. These days she is good but she is very smart and if I don't have the dually on her she knows!
Thank Maggie! :)
I will for sure try those all tomorrow (raining today) when I'm out walking her, I never really gave sharp tugs as it seemed a little harsh (she's been hurt before and she'll run if you scare her, heck if another horse bites her she runs), but I'll give it a try and hopefully that will form personal space boundaries. :)
Oops! a correction on where I hold the lead rope for discipline. Yesterday when my mare was being naughty and needing discipline I realised that I actually hold the rope much closer to the ring when she is playing up to give me more control - about 5 inches (13cm). Just for casual leading I hold it at about 10 inches (26cm). It is amazing how different it is when you are actually doing it and handling the naughty horse! Just be consistent and always correct her if she tries to barge ahead. The straight arm is really important as that also helps you hold then off you. Trying to barge ahead and then turn around me back to her mate is theproblem I have with my mare and she will still try it if she has not been taken away from her mate for awhile. Backing up and then moving her forward until she is responsive and at the sweet spot is the secret. When she barges ahead of me I move her in a circle until I have control and then back her up. Any attempt to bite - big jerck on dually! Any attempt to walk into me big jerk and back up! She is always worst when I haven't ridden or handled her for a couple of weeks as was the case yesterday. She would be a very dominant bossy mare if it was not for the dually. She would be perfect to day if I caught her but if I used the rope halter she would know and be naughty again! Very smart and potentially very naughty horse but thanks to the dually she is beautiful and very submissive once we are over our first discipline session.
hi maggie how old is your mare? every thing you describe is what Oscar is doing at the minute Im having to face the harsh truth that he is a bit to much for me at the moment and my concern is that if i dont do somthing before he gets really big im going to have an agressive big horse on my hands that no one can do any thing with .He is so stubborn and im finding it hard when he decideds his had enough or dosent want to go the way i want he becomes naughty puting his ears back swinging his head he goes where i want and i tell him of or school with the dually but its the ears back all the time he just looked pissed to be having to do anything and because he is this way im not taking him out and where working in the paddock .He is still backing up and i can get him to turn away from me in circles but i feel like im one step a way from being really challenged do you think this is his age wich is 17mths Im worried if he really puts in a challenge i havent got the tools i may need and if he feels that kind of win i think i may be in big trouble.As you know i have tried a couple of trainers Karen white was on at the mohegan place in pearth she has really good reviews but she does use some old school techniques i think this may be the avenue i have to take what do you think its hard if only we had more monty instructors even looked up lynn in victoria but the course is at the end of the year i really need help now so frustrated . and a bit dissipointed in myself
My mare is 6 years old now so no longer a baby. Unfortunately I am still resting her for long periods because of her back injury so her training re-riding and dressage has really been put on hold for 18 months. She only became really naughty once she was 4 years old and after I had broken her in. An in-hand instructor at our adult riding club set her off and I had huge difficulties with her after that as she wanted to fight me too. Thank goodness I discovered Monty, join up and the dually as they brought her back to me and most of the time she is really good now but still need to use the dually and discipline her occasionally. Have you done join up with Oscar yet? That made a huge difference to Tricka as she learnt to respect me. When you are using the dually with Oscar make sure he responds to you - the head shaking as evasion is a big problem as that is dangerous for your when you are too close. Really try to discipline him as soon as he attempts to shake his head but make sure your head is out of the contact zone first. Remember that you must be in charge of his feet - it is so easy to step back and then they have won so try to stand your ground but stay safe. I have lost two long comments in my attempt here so far so i will finish this one here and start again. I am on my daughter's computer and the screen just disappears!
Back to Oscar! Emlaw suggested Kay Thomas to me for Banjo if I had taken him on. She is a Pat Parelli expert but it is very difficult to find Monty trainers in Victoria. At least the Pat Parelli school believes in more natural training methods i.e. no brutality. Another re-trainer who has a good reputation around outer, northern Melbourne is Andrew Maclean. I was thinking of him as someone for Tricka prior to deciding to have a go myself. I believe he has a web address so you could check that out - I will too for interest. If you do decide to get a trainer for Oscar do try to make sure that you can be present for the sessions so that you can watch what happens. This is important so that you know what experiences Oscar has had and also so that you can then follow up on the training methods used so that he is not confused. Only plus of having poor Banjo go to a traditional tough re-trainer is because that is what he is used to - perhaps horses that have been brutalised when breaking just expect that and do not respond to gentle methods - a bit like a beaten dog! I believe Tricka - like her Mum, Pie, would rather die than have her spirit broken as Banjo's has been. The great outcome of traditional brutal and cruel breaking methods - you either get an unresponsive, dull eyed horse like Banjo who seemed to say do what you like I don't care - or you get a broken down young horse like Pie but the fighting spirit remains. Pie had broken ribs and broken cartilages in her front knee joints after her re-training. I am rather proud of Pie for retaining her spirit. She can actually gallop and canter these days as her front knee joints seem to have calcified with old age and that must be holding the broken cartilages in place. Must check with the vet!
My mare is 6 years old now so no longer a baby. Unfortunately I am still resting her for long periods because of her back injury so her training re-riding and dressage has really been put on hold for 18 months. She only became really naughty once she was 4 years old and after I had broken her in. An in-hand instructor at our adult riding club set her off and I had huge difficulties with her after that as she wanted to fight me too. Thank goodness I discovered Monty, join up and the dually as they brought her back to me and most of the time she is really good now but still need to use the dually and discipline her occasionally. Have you done join up with Oscar yet? That made a huge difference to Tricka as she learnt to respect me. When you are using the dually with Oscar make sure he responds to you - the head shaking as evasion is a big problem as that is dangerous for your when you are too close. Really try to discipline him as soon as he attempts to shake his head but make sure your head is out of the contact zone first. Remember that you must be in charge of his feet - it is so easy to step back and then they have won so try to stand your ground but stay safe. I have lost two long comments in my attempt here so far so i will finish this one here and start again. I am on my daughter's computer and the screen just disappears!
Oops! Apologies all for double posting the above comment!
Just checked out Andrew McLean's web site. He lives near Melbourne at Broadford, Victoria and his clinic is the Australian Equine Behavioural Clinic. Looks interesting and I would have tried him for Banjo.
Hey,
Thanks for more comments! (even if it's to another poster I still read and learned something)
Lucky my girl is not pushy really, she never crowds my space unless I give permission, doesn't barge over me or on top of me! Just in front like she's rushing to get away from the arena (only does this after a scary place, got one good exit today after doing circles for a while, so I was happy).
She isn't dominant at all, I think she's looking for a leader not wanting to be one, just doesn't look to me as that leader (working on it)
Thanks Maggie for your insight and good-luck with your horse Unicorn! :)
thanks for the input and sorry the homemadehorse i didnt mean to interupt your chat just after reading some of the comments for you i needed some input your mare sounds lovely and i hear you when they want a leader it just aint you yet but keep on trying our horses are worth all this great conversation !! I wish i had some great advise for you but their are plenty of knowlegable people here to chat to keep you all posted on our journey thanks jules
Thanks the homemadehorse - your mare sounds sweet and she does need you as her leader so good luck with it. Hi again unicorn too - just interested to know where you live. Is it in Victoria or NSW? Do hope Oscar pulls into line for you. He is probably just testing his boundaries at present. Try not to let him get away with anything but I know that is much harder to do they say!
Breakthrough today!!
I took a little time with her just sitting, I read a book while I fed her (special diet), normally once she finishes I start our walks, this time I waited. It took about twenty minutes, then it happened. She came to me, slowly, and stopped in front of my chair, I put my hand out without looking up and she put her nose on it. This is the only way I could know for sure that she WANTED to go for a walk. My small join-up. :)
She was actually a lot more calm this time, she still spooked but I tried the quick pulls to school her and it worked MUCH better. Much licking and chewing ensued.
We made multiple laps, and even got her to go down the scary hallway (she was hit by a farrier in there, she wasn't happy) she made it halfway down, and I called it and slowly walked her out, if she rushed I gently schooled and made her stay for the count of 10, she quickly learned following calmly would get her out of the terrifying hallway sooner than trying to rush out.
I called it after that, and I felt great. So did she, she followed me when I got my bags to leave, and I gave her many scratches.
I think I'll be doing this mini join-up more often, it seemed to make us both feel better. :)
well done homemadehorse its such a forfilling feeling as things move forward and horses are very clever sounds like your using your dually they are an awsome piece of equipment without mine on oscar at the moment he knows the differance when i put on a normal halter we have not been having many sucsses i have just gone baack to basics again i think im just to soft with him and it dosent fill him with that sense of im in charge but im working on it and hi maggie i live in perth now was darwin and i grew up in country victoria in a little town called daylesford just discoverd another trainer called jayne lavender and natural language of the horse is her specialty yeah carnt wait to hear from her crossing everything have a wonderful day jules
Congratulations, thehomemadehorse. This is great news and exciting to read of your progress. Well done! You sound as if you have things more under control now and your mare is responding nicely. Everything you did sounded great - especially the way you handled the terrifying alley way. Good thinking - just continue to take things slowly as you now are. Hi Jules again - pity Perth is so far away. I knw Daylesford pretty well - such a pretty town. It is interesting the way our horses know whether or not they have the dually on - Tricka is just like Oscar - if she doesn't have the dually she will still be piggish and she should know better by now. Every so often I try the rope halter - sometimes she is OK with it but other times she just gets naughty. Especially when loading her onto the float - always walks on like a lamb with the dually but says NO with the rope halter until I put the dually on over it. They are amusing. I would make sure you always use the dually with Oscar and be ready to give him a firm, effective tug whenever he goes to play up at all. Banjo's owner made the bad mistake of not using hers consistently for the first 12 months she had Banjo as her instructor didn't appreciate its benefits. I think if she had used her dually continuously and stayed with Monty's methods she would have had a very different horse. Banjo really needed the discipline of the dually not the whip. His owner started using it consistently the last few months she owned Banjo and he was really responding well to it. Just one of those sad stories as Banjo's owner didn't know any better. Despite joining Monty's uni and purchasing a dually she then chose to listen to her non Monty type instructor - I guess she was not really converted. I still feel so sad for her and Banjo.
Jules - Just another one for you. Have you tried join up yet with Oscar? I think you would find it would make a big difference to his attitude. If you do try it have someone else watch, wear your helmet etc and make sure he responds to you. When you send him off try to stand your ground and move towards him not away unless really necessary. As well as having the lunge line to shake at him I would also have a wand or a dressage whip with the whip part attached to the handle with rubber bands to shake (not whip) at him just in case he does decide to turn on you - this is just for you safety and maybe you will feel more confident too if you hold it when you are sending him away- doesn't look like Monty but it is effective if they get naughty and bossy when you are trying to send them out. If you do get the flight in both directions and some of the four signs, inside ear twitching towards you, head down, licking and chewing, smaller circles then it is time to place the wand on the ground and just use the lunge line as Monty does to keep him going a few more circles prior to asking him to join up. If you don't have any facilities for join-up then perhaps just try lunging Oscar with the dually - just get him to walk a few circles around you and then try trot in the same direction and then get him to stop and send him out in the opposite direction for a repeat. No canter until you are both more confident and know what is expected. I know as Monty's students we shouldn't single line lunge but I do think that lunging with the dually with the lead rope attached to the ring closest to you or lunging with a rope halter on a flexible soft lead are much safer with a young horse when we are relatively inexperienced that dougble lines. I know I would just get tangleg! It was hard enough with my very quiet shetland! Lunging this way does not swing their neck out from the circle but you keep the head towards you a little so I can't see that this is so damaging particularly if you do not do it too often. Lunging like this does help your horse respect you - a little like join up does as you are in control.
Hi all!! I haven't been on here in a while so i am trying to catch up on some stuff that's been going on in my absence! This is a good stream with some great advice :-) Buster my Brumby is doing well although i have to admit i do not use a Dually with him. He hates it with a passion. Join-up was great for us and established respect and pecking order, as in the beginning coming out of the wild and only recently gelded, he was trying to assert himself. Join-up fixed this immediately. I know Monty would be horrified to hear it but i have started cicker training with him and this he responds to so well. He actually enjoys his lessons and engages with me like i have never experienced before. He is still a baby, only 2 and a half, so i have some time before riding to play on the ground with him. We also had some float loading issues which the Dually just didn't work for. My problem is that the Dually doesn't fit well on him. I have all 3 sizes and none fit properly so it is not effective with him. Brumbies have thick necks and small muzzles so i need a black one for his neck but it is too big round his nose so it slips round a long way before the schooling rings come into play. This is why i decided to try clicker training. I borrowed a float and within 1 hour i had him on and off the float 3 times. It was a very relaxed training session, no agro just patience and clicking lol!! There's my bit of an update....wasn't planning to write so much...sorry thehomemadehorse for stealing your post for a bit!
Thehomemadehorse.. What a great feeling you must have had when you got your mini Join-up! A win of any kind is always nice hey! Keep up your good work :-)
Jules, you have been so patient with your Oscar for some time now! Be encouraged that you have stuck with it for so long even when it has been hard. What i will say is... don't be afraid to try something new with him! I was having issues with Buster becoming bored and a bit agro with some things i was doing so i decided to try clicker training (not saying you should do this, but it worked for me) and it turned a corner with us very quickly. It seemed to wake him up. It has him thinking and wanting to learn which is really nice. Brumbies are so super intelligent and therefore get bored very fast so i needed something to challenge him in a positive way. I hope you find a way to start improving Oscar's behaviour for both your benefit! Have you heard of Wrangler Jayne?? She is a horse trainer who is very kind and gentle and is big on the horse respecting you on the ground and it sounds like she is a really good teacher. You can buy her dvd's online. She is on facebook too. Maybe you could email her and ask some advice? Good luck with it all :-)
Maggie, In the above comments you said about CI's being hard to find in Vic?? Isn't Lynn Mitchell in victoria? I am not sure where you are but she was really helpful to me when i first got Buster. Also a frind of mine on facebook took one of her horses to an Andrew McLean clinic and loved it...said she would move in if she could! Well worth a look.
Great to hear from you Nelliebell and congratulations with your progress with Buster. I am pleased you tried clicker training and that you have found it so successful. I think it would really suit horses like Buster. Thanks for the comments re Lynn and Andrew. The Banjo issue is passed now as he was given to someone else - a traditional type breaker, re-trainer to retrain. I guess I was pretty reluctant to take him on as I have so many other horses already that need my love and attention and I am too old to take on a challenge like Buster. The best I could have done was allow him time to chill out and get used to some Monty type ground work, find someone who could retrain him and then try to find a suitable home for him. Lynn doesn't re-train horses but does give clinics on the the use of the dually and on join up to owners and their horses. It would have been interesting to take Banjo to one of her clinics but I would have chosen Andrew McLean for the re-training as he does have an excellent reputation. As it happened the decision of whether or not I would take Banjo on was taken out of my hands by his owner and I was relieved for this. I think she did the only thing she could but I still feel sad for Banjo. Hopefully he will be successfully re-trained and find another loving home some day.
hi nelliebell nice to see you back its really interesting on what you and buster are doing the one thing that comes to mind reading your post is that all horses respond differently and i think it also comes down to us as trainers the dynamics of our pairing love the fact you got some positive outcomes with clicker training their is never just on e method good stuff!!! hi maggie i have done a couple of join ups with oscar we were doing well hard to get him moving but he was doing it atleast then of course the trainers the whips scince then i have tryed join up twice but i have also had to make a round pen on grass so not only did he think great some yummy grass he was really hard to get moving he stopped at the gat constantly nd would turn and just star at me i would shake the lunge line put my arms in the air and he would just look at me like yeah right he would move of i even started throwing the lunge line out at him when he was going we got around one way the turned in ear smaller circles so i tryed turning him he went a bit then i just got him to walk he did smaller circle turned in ear and licking and chewing so i ended here with a small win i then did some backing and took him back to the paddock it wasnt the best outcome a friend has just sent me a number for another trainer and she says she is great and likes natural horsemanship so i will give her a call im not giving up!! my oscar is a big bossy sook and when he has had a enough he gets vey grumpy if we can work through this his going to be amazing!! happy horsing have a lovely day
So another update: Just today, I decided to try more and push a little more (ask more of her), and we downed three new areas!! A pathway to the trails, entrance to the main herd paddock, and the outside exercise ring!
These were all NEW area's for her, and within only a minute of simple schooling she followed me and we did multiple laps in each area, she looooved it! She was nervous at first but followed and soon relaxed and had a "whew, that wasn't so bad!"
All the other boarders were commenting on how amazingly she's changed in only a couple days, they thought it would take her months before she'd make all the new areas! (They saw her when she was being hurt by the old farrier and saw her freak and run)
The Hallway is still slow, got halfway again and I turned back and gave a lot of praise because she only breathed heavy, but no looking around or weaving, just followed in and back out.
I'm so proud of her!! It's been so amazing to see this change in her so quickly!!
Great to hear that you are both doing so well esp. in the trust dept! :) Slow is fast! :D
Great news homemadehorse and well done! Good luck Unicorn with the trainer. I do hope she suits you and Oscar. It is very hard to get them to join up on grass unless they are kept in an excessively grassy paddock so that may explain some of your difficulties with Oscar. It sounds as if you are making some progress. Have you tried mowing the grass in your home made round pen really low? That tends to help. Looking forward to some good news from this re-trainer - do try to watch her at work if you possibly can. Note my comments to sydneycare - sometimes re-trainers can sound much better than they are.