Hi. I assume all 4 posts relate to Molly. You can add on so no need to start afresh & it makes it easier for others to follow through the links. Firstly, she is older so these habits are likely to be well established & so harder to address successfully, but that does not mean impossible. You need a dually halter, you need to do Join up several times. You might want to get one of Monty Associates to help if there is one in your area. If not, you need the book From My Hands to Yours where Monty lays out the procedure for just about every horse problem. You need to stay safe, calm & consistent. Study on the Uni - that's what I did. Combined with her health issues, Molly's behaviour would bring many people to the conclusion that this was not a cause worth pursuing but clearly you are more dedicated. There is one other thing that might help Molly. Some mares are really quieted by having a foal. If she is sexually frustrated then having a foal, to a really nice, gentle stallion, would have two advantages - firstly, she would be more settled for you to work with & secondly you would have the foal to bring up in the gentle ways of the Uni. Having been a trotter means she has been in a racing yard where manners are not the priority, nor in many cases, the happiness of the horse. Once any kind of racer can no long race they are discarded & become cheap to buy but very costly to their new owners through no fault of their own. She is damaged goods & if you are going to repair her it's going to be a long job. Keep in touch on this one link & the Uni will give you support & advice. Cheers, Jo

Thanks jo didn't mean to put all them on and didn't know how to delete.i am a animal lover my otherhalf is always on about the animals I bring home.when I took on molly I was unaware of her issues. they were leaving town and they wanted her to go to a loving home and I couldn't say no.over the last year I have tried everything the vets could think of and this has cost me a fortune but I've felt I had to try coz I just love her i get sooo attatched .i know she'll only get worse and eventually I'll have to make a decision.i recently bought another mare.which is the "horse always races under saddle"on the forum.and we're doing well.I'm not ready to make that decision yet with Molly and was just wondering if there was any ideas of how i should react when she does this.If I'm not ready to make that awful decision yet I feel I should keep doing things with her it's fun.I'll know when it's time.i really appreciate all the advice you give on this forum it's great.:)unfotunately i live 1200kms north of Perth in western Australia and the closest monty Roberts instructor is 200kms south of Perth. Maybe one day I'll visit her.till then monty lessons and the forum.

Hi jedster (can we have your name please?)

I don't think I have ever disagreed with Jo on anything but this is the beauty of this forum, to share views in a safe place :-) I strongly am against the idea of her having a foal. I understand Jo's reasoning but I don't feel this is a valid enough reason to bring yet another foal into the world when there are so many abandoned horses around.
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I do agree with Jo however that it is reasonable to assume she did not learn basic manners and may have been treated very badly.
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Final thought: Ovarian pain can be a major factor in mares in season

Sorry forgot to add...when you say she "seasons all the time" can you explain a bit more

Jedsterptyltd does your mare only behave this way when you are about to put the saddle on? If so my gut feeling is that it is the saddle that is causing the problem. She could have had a poorly fitted saddle in her in the past so that she now associates the pain that saddle caused with any saddle or it could be something to do with her current saddle or her back. Have you had your saddle checked and fitted by a professional? You should also check your girth and make sure it is clean with no bumps and that the buckles either have a padded backing or are on the saddle flap so that they are not against her skin and sticking into her. Have you tried riding her bareback? If she is OK bareback then it is likely to be a saddle problem - past or present. If your current saddle fits correctly then it will be a long slow process of getting her to accept that it does not hurt her. Incremental re learning will be the way to go - tiny steps and lots of pats and encouragement for correct responses. Initially you may just approach her with the saddle stand beside her till she settles then walk away. Good luck.

Hi. I really enjoy being challenged - makes me more inventive! The forum is ideal for this. However, my point is this, yes, there are lots of rescues needing help. However, if our lives are just full of problems we are going to become depressed & less able to help out. Everyone needs joy in their lives. I have a mare who will need put down at some point. She's only 13 but has fractured her off side knee last Christmas, whilst pregnant. So my vet agreed to try & hold her together long enough to give the foal life & a start in life. Well my little filly is 3.5 months old now & the cut off is 4 months. I look into Bellas eyes & see a proud mother, very lame but happy. She gets daily pain relief & is coping well but I think the angle of her leg at the knee is getting worse. This is Scotland, the herd live out & anytime she may stop coping. She schools her yearling still, the Dad, now gelded, takes on much of the parenting duties leaving Bella in peace. It will break my heart when she goes but I will have her offspring, who are great, to go on with. My point in this is having a foal is a fabulous time. It could sort out Molly but if it doesn't it will give you a clean slate to work on which, with Monty help, will bring you the best time! You deserve that given what you have put into Molly. You will always have a piece of her. You will be in a situation where you have given her more chance than virtually anyone else would have done but not left yourself feeling like, perhaps you could have done more. Monty says horses have only 2 priorities in life, to survive & to reproduce. You would have given Molly the opportunity to do both & if you only achieve one, well at least you gave it your best shot. These are just my thoughts. You'll appreciate where I am coming from when I tell you the yearling is Spitfire Kirk, born on a farm called Kirklands and the filly is Spitfire Holy Moley - coz she's a little miracle ( I'm convinced Monty has said Holy Moley, it's a miracle in one of his demos). Today Moley accepted the green dually, without aggro, for the first time. Nothing more done today as it's way more heavy than the foalslip she's used to. She's a star! Cheers, Jo.

Hi vicci when I say she goes into season all the time I mean winking sqirting backing up to poles and sliding down backing up to the otherhorses head shaking.this can come on anytime.she can be completely normal and then go out with some other horses and it starts.she'squite a tart:)

Hi. Bella used to be a bit like that. Every time a new horse was introduced she seemed to instantly come into season & displayed many of the traits you list. It used to take no time at all; she'd then get cross with them & moody with me. That all stopped when Humphrey arrived, entire colt. Bella helped nurse him back to health & now we have the 2 youngsters. Cheers, Jo

Hi jedsterptyltd,
Sounds to me like your mare has a hormonal problem first and foremost. Overproduction by some gland can give raise to any number of behaviour problems like the ones you have.
In that case I would not recommend trying to solve it by getting her into foal. The problem is as likely to come back twice as bad after that as being resolved, and there is a good chance that a filly out of her inherits the same problem.
Also, no matter how gentle the stallion, it is the mare that raises the foal and studies show that she sets about 70% of the off-spring's attitude.
(And then I am not looking at the other issues about breeding - is the mare sound enough to carry and raise a foal, is her traits worth to carry on into a new generation, how "bad" can the foal get if it inherits *all* her bad points? (Believe me when I say they seldom come out that perfect character you dream about!) Breeding and growing a foal costs tons of money even when everything goes right according to the "text book example" - can I afford it if it doesn't?)
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Can you get a vet out to examine her and take some tests? There are hormonal treatments that might help. Beating the call of "mother nature" is seldom possible but once she is more settled in that dept. you migt have a better chance at reaching her with your training of ground manners.

Excellent points Kicki!

Hi, there are some good hormonal supplements out there that work,they just level them out. I know Beryl uses Hormonise, I've used Slut Mix and Agnus Cactus seeds for my 4y.o mare Winter, when she first came to us she was very mareish! Now she's good as gold and off them, whether or not it was a reaction to moving home I don't know but she was a cow in the stable, biting and trying to kick! Also had her teeth and back checked/sorted. Took a while to stop the kicking when having her girth done up but just held it against her for a few seconds, then did it up! From My Hands To Yours is a great book well worth getting, I also have a copy on my Kindle app so I always have it handy by.

Quite agree with Kicki, hormonal problems!
Again, another possibility for the use of Hormonise rather than the VERY STRONG Regumate from the vet!
Often the herbal remedy works gently on the system to get them back into a balanced state.

I wonder how many of the 50,000 or so horses that Monty has worked with has he sorted out there problems with a hormone balancer. Just a thought!

Probably not very many, but we're not Monty, trying to emulate him yes but he's got years of experience and notices every slight change in the horses. I used Slut Mix to help Winter cope with strong season's, she was kicking the walls in her stable, as at the time she wasn't mine I really didn't want her damaged. Used it for 2/3 month's then eased her off it, while she settled and got teeth etc sorted!

Monty doesn't pretend he's the Oracle of all things horse! He would not presume to be a vet, a farrier, a nutritionist or any other specialised practitioner!
What he is the nearest to being the Oracle is in understanding & training horses from the start!

If you've been to any of his demo's, you'll likely hear him say that some people say he's cheating but doing a certain thing - his reply is yes, if it makes it easier for the horse, he'll do it - or words to that effect.

Many horses respond to calmer's which brings down their adrenalin & so makes life easier for them & us. Agnus Castus, Vitex whatever name you choose to call it, has a very gentle effect that calms - i don't understand why you have such a problem with that concept?

Would you not feed a balanced diet via using a feed balancer or vitamin /mineral supplement unless told to do so by Monty? That isn't his remit, his is to help us understand horse language & behaviour & learn to think for ourselves to try to work out how to help our horses & each other; I'm sure if he had a horse who could benefit from something, he'd be very open to discuss it.

I apologize Beryl, let me first explain that i suffer from a self diagnosed communication disorder known as internet forum/facebook Tourettes syndrome "IFFTS" Little is known about this disorder so i suffer in silence, it’s not until i actually have already hit the comment button that my brain catches up and i realize that i just sound like an arrogant d**k, again I apologize.
I live in Malawi in Africa, i own and run a stables and guest house 4kms from the shores of lake Malawi, at present we have 21 horses’ have lived without reliable internet at home since i started the place 13 years ago, even what i have now after paying Monty my 60$ it could take 45mins to download one lesson so Monty’s lessons are on the back burner at the moment. My nearest tack shop is about 2500 miles away most of our saddles and tack are brought over from the UK by family and friends when they visit.
Hormonise was completely new to me, and maybe because it was mentioned so many times it did get my back up a bit, I have done a bit of research over the last few days on agnus castus as I have two older horses with cushings disease, there is no doubt that in my mind that it does what it says on the packet. What I do not believe it is, as opposed to the manufactures of slut mix, vitex ect is a hormone balancer it does not have free thinking effects that calculate the hormone excretion of the pituitary gland and balances them, it inhibits only, I also have no doubt that it works on calming ect much the same as chemical castration would.
Hormone imbalances in horses and humans are mostly due to stress and environment, improve these and the hormones will balance themselves.
Maybe I have been a bit negative about this but if it helps a mare and their owner through a trying time then on reflection I truly see no reason why not, and I,m not having a go at people using the product but do understand what it actually does
On the subject of sweet itch Maybe vitex do “claim” that it May improve the immune system, what they do not at all claim is any benefits for sweet itch, I do understand why you might want to give it for Laminitis, but as Kikki only has a sweet itch problem I do not see hormonise as the way forward.
We have used Benzyl benzoate here for many years; it’s not foolproof but works for us in containing the problem, I know off many people who use garlic powder as a herbal help, one thing I do know is my world would be a nicer place if it wasn’t for the cullicoides midge.
Sorry again Beryl for my IFFTS outburst, if there are any other sufferers out there have faith you are not alone.
P.S Maybe another reason i,m not so keen on hormonise is because there is nothing i enjoy more than a moody mare...

Neither the makers of Hormonise nor i make any claims that it will help sweetitch, i only acknowledge that sweetitch is another immune system problem.
Your whole body is run on the balance or imbalance of the hormonal system, it's not restricted to one or two parts of the body.
There have been several clinical trials on it's use for Cushings syndrome with very beneficial effects & i KNOW for a fact it has been prescribed by vets when Pergolide has failed!
Benzyl benzoate is a very old fashioned treatment for sweetitch & can be an irritant, although in smaller amounts, it's often added to some sweetitch lotions.
Garlic i would not give to my mare as she's had many food intollerances & many horses react to it.
I did try it on my old pony & found it had no effect whatsoever.
The only way to really help is to rug them up with very fine, close weave rugs to stop the midges biting in the first place.
Steroid injection are sometimes still offered by vets even though they've been proved not to work & put the horse at great risk of developing laminitis.
Another new treatment is Calvlesse, a tablet from the vet, which is meant to have good reviews, too expensive for me & i wouldn't risk leaving rugs off mine where the are as the midges are awful.
Whilst you may enjoy a moody mare, the mare may not actually be having such a great time is she's suffering from mood swings & her back & ovaries are really aching & she's feeling very very sensitive to the touch????
I don't need convincing of the benefits of Agnus Castus as i've seen it with my own eyes on many occasions, so I will point out them out if it helps other people & their horses, I'm not doing it from a point of ignorance!
We are here to share ideas, not put each other down, we all have valuable experience to share.