I have a paint gelding I have owned for quite a few years now who can be a pain in my butt. I cant catch him when hes outside OR in his stall. I cant get a halter on him let alone get near him in the field. If he is in his stall he turns aggressive and turns his behind towards me as if hes going to kick me. The ONLY way I can halter him is if I were to "trap" him in the arena. I would let him in as if I were stalling him but have the arena panels, metal round pen panels, open to where he just runs into the arena. After I did this I would do join up and halter him. Then comes the next problem. If I am trying to ride him I have to repeat the join up for EVERY piece of tack that goes on, the saddle pad, saddle, bridle, etc. He kicks out when I try to put the saddle on and tighten it. I continue this until hes fully tacked and I can get on. Hes OK when hes being ridden. He'll stop in a corner occasionally or at the gate but I have gotten him to the point he HARDLY does anymore. He has an attitude though when he doesn't want to go how I want him to, slow trots or going into a canter, or slowing to a walk or trot. He gets all fussy and will rear up on me, he did this in the middle of a horse show last year, the county fair to be exact, and had me disqualified. He's even reached back and bit my foot when I tried to kick him into a canter. Then when I come to unsaddle him its like he doesn't want any of it to come off. He wont sit still, he kicks out some, and does circles. NOW my problem is our arena is now outside, I would move it back inside but it is not my barn. I worked with him recently the EXACT way I have before but, this time things got bad. When I went to bridle him he reared up on me and, thankfully moved in time so I wasn't knocked in the head, when he came down he knocked my fingers and managed to cause a slight fracture in my middle and ring fingers. So my question is how can I change this behavior? Any advice on ANYTHING I can do differently? My mom and grandma are ready to sell him with how dangerous he is becoming and that's not an option in my eyes.
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Hi, Poor you! He sounds very difficult! You haven't said if you've had his teeth and back checked, it sounds as if hes got pain there somewhere! He quite possibly relates humans to pain, for whatever reason, hence the aggressive behavior. I would talk to a few people & ask them who they use for teeth & back problems also ask what they are like with the horses, you dont want anyone who is aggressive in their attitude as this will make the problem worse obviously! Also ask you vet for a sedative for when these things are being done it does make such a difference in these cases life becomes so much easier for all concerned.
Remember your safety is paramount, horses are supposed to be (for most of us) a pleasure our time out! Check out the instructor tab and find one close to you and ask if they can come out and help you!
It sounds to me like he's possibly in a lot of pain & is frightened of being ridden; if this isn't the case, he has been very wrongly handled at sometime, BUT you need to get his teeth, back legs,feet, everything checked out by a vet & physio first of all, then you must get his saddle fit checked by a competent saddler, not by the person in the barn who knows it all!!!
He has no other way to tell you he has a problem & his behaviour is escalating as you aren't listening to him.
Please get the vet out ASAP.
Let us know how you get on, this is a very sad situation, i hope it goes well for you.
morning Tiggy - we posted the same time!
Mornin hunni, good advice, I didn't want to ramble so left off about the saddle fit.
I would also ask the Dentist to create bit seats.
Tessaloreilly, where are you based? Just so anyone else here who might be close and able to recommend people to help.
Knew a paint who used to rear at the sound of chains, metal and rear at the bridle, we then found out he had been very badly abused in the past, he was way too young when the old owner mouthed him,under 18 months. Apparently when he refused to put the bridle on, the person would get frustrated and at some stage whacked him across the head with a chain... He is very very sensitive now, very head shy but is able to put the bridle on fairly well from introducing it all very slowly, showing him it doesn't hurt, and practicing putting it on him everyday :)
Hi Tessa - I think we need to start again with this horse. Focusing on the behaviours (can't catch, won't do this that and the other, does things he shouldn't etc.) is focusing on the symptoms of what is fundamentally a broken relationship between the two of you. Neither of you like or trust each other very much and understandably you are both very grumpy with each other :-) So, before spending money on all the great advice above - I'm not saying don't follow it, I'm saying hang on and come a step further back; if there is no relationship between you, nothing will help. It all starts with him not wanting to come near you in the field. I have worked with a situation like this and here is what I suggest. Decide in your mind that for the next month you o not want to catch this horse or do anything with him, all you want to do is spend time with him. Leave him out in a small paddock 24/7 if you can so that you don't have to bring him in. Step 1: For 3 days, 6 times a day, go into his field, ignore him completely, don't look at him, don't touch him, NOTHING; pick poo, hunt for nettles, read a book, whatever you like, then come away. I can hear you groaning now and saying "Are you kidding me??!" haha I know it's labour intensive at first but you two have got to get to know and trust each other. Step 2: Days, 4, 5, 6, same again, but this time add in saying hello to a different horse (not yours) - very important to mix it up, don't do every second time you go in for example! Step 3: Days 7, 8, 9 Same again, but add in walking up to your horse (if he hasn't already come to look for you!), touch him lightly WALK AWAY - again, vary the routine. Step 4: Days 10, 11, 12, same again now add in carrying a halter with you, put the halter on ANOTHER horse, walk the horse for a few steps, take it off, walk away. Step 5: days 13,14,15 - same again, but add in putting rope over your horses neck and halter if he will let you, walk him a few steps, take halter off, let him go. You then need to build this up to taking him for a walk, take him to the stable, walk him in the stable where there is a bowl of carrots and apples waiting for him (make sure he doesn't see you put them in there) so the stable is now somewhere lovely. Leave him alone to eat them. Take him back out to the field - this bit should take another 2 weeks. If all is calm and well then slowly start introducing one thing at a time and looking for reactions/indications of pain etc. e.g. show him a saddle pad, put it on....show him the saddle, take your time DO NOT do join up in between all these things you are confusing him. Now this is a month or two of intensive, slow work but I worked with a young girl whose horse as behaving just like yours and would not be caught and it was dangerous (didnt help that the advice others had given and done on her bahalf was to smack it with the whip when it turned its back end towards her - daft people!). I gave her the 6 times a day task and went back 10 days later, she said "Come and see" - she walked to the field, opened the gate, the horse quietly walked towards her, lowered its head to have its halter on and quietly walked to the stable - a very magical moment :-) Naturally the plan I have suggested may need to be modified - it may take longer, it may go more quickly but I can promise you that your horse does not want to be with you, and until you address this, very little will change. Keep us posted, looking forward to hearing how it goes.
Forgot to add, your title is interesting "Horse has a mind of its own" - yes he has, and so he should; engage with his mind and his body will follow, not the other way round. :-)
I'm with you on this one vicci a good plan, plus if he is in pain he will eventually trust enough for him to be massaged and pain be found, or a dentist to ensure he's not in pain in his mouth.
Tessaloreilly, if we could know your area one of us maybe close to either help out or know someone local to you.
Remember you've got all the time in the world for your boy (What's his name?) Do not hurry to resolve the problem, but become his friend in the manner Vicci has detailed. Before you do any work with him, you really need to gain his trust, don't invade his space and he will respect you for that.
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Pye one of my rescues has taken a good year to bring him back to a safe level of riding, he was dumped in a field near us deemed dangerous, biting, kicking and bucking and he was extremely scared of everything. He'll still spook at something unexpected, like he did today knocking me down then dragging me about 10 feet as he tried to bolt, thankfully he had a dually on, which went into pressure and he quickly realised his actions has caused a problem and he stopped and stood still for me to get up. All that had spooked him was in a field with 3 colts were watching, little did we know that there were 2 girls in the shelter and they came out quite fast and he panicked, that set off the 3 colts. Pye jumped sideways knocking me down etc..... but he trusts me enough now that he'll respond quickly to instruction.
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Please keep us posted, and I really hope he is not sold on you do not know who's hand will affect him next. If you are able to work slowly with him, then you will be rewarded for your time and patience.
Good advice from Vicci. Sounds slow but remember slow is fast with these remedial horses that have so many issues that need correcting. In conjunction with Vicci's program watch as many of the videos as you can where Monty is dealing with horses with similar problems as yours. Build up your relationship first via Vicci's program, then have him thoroughly checked out by physio and dentist then start introducing ground work lessons with the dually.
Hiya, it probably seems like we're all bombarding you with answers but all the advice above is priceless! My boy has many issues and one we have resolved is mounting- he would spin and spin n spin and when my backside touched the saddle he would bolt- all his previous treatment left him so tense his back was really sore and the saddle hurt a lot. He taught me this and made me listen- he would let me get on bare back no problem- not that I would suggest trying this, but he was telling me, all I had to do was listen. He now has and osteopath twice a year but his back is so much better but I always keep a close eye and have a tree- less saddle which works well with him. Now that he knows he can tell me things and I will ( most of the time!) hear him, he trusts me so much more.
Also if your in England in the south east there is a dentist called Westrow- google it for the number, who is brilliant! Very patient, chilled and knows his stuff- plus he's a nice bit of eye candy for us ladies! Lol
lol, nice one Widgym we'll be looking for a handsome chap!
Glad your boy has realised you are trying to listen to him, things will go well for you both!!!
x
Haha seriously tough I would highly recommend him- woods had never had his teeth done before me, and at that point still was ultra wary of men. So the dentist guy took his time, didn't use electric equipment and kept giving woody breaks and although he was scared and pulled back a bit woods tolerated it.. The next time woods just stool still in his stable with no one holding him it was amazing..
Also regarding the listening, it was my horse that taught me too listen. He would do things really obviously and when I got it right, it was obvious what he wanted. Talk about PICNIC! The first time ( I have to say this is something I am very very ashamed of) I was jumping him and either fell off or got off and he wouldn't let me back on. Kept spinning and spinning, so I hit him with the whip. As I did it I realised that was exact ally why he wouldn't let me back on. As soon as I threw the whip down he stood still. I haven't ridden with a ship since. I'm sharing this to show how important it is to throw away our pre- conceived ideas about how things should run. We have a lot more to prove to them, than they do to us.
I should say this incident was before I new of his bad background. The fact that he has forgiven me , even at the time I believe, shows how much they give. Gushy moment, but we who look after animals are so blessed.
Its a credit to you that you have been honest enough to share it widgy...we've all done things that we wish we hadn't...it's those those don't learn from it I have little sympathy for. Thank god our horses are so forgiving eh?
What an excellent thread. Vicci, so much good advice and thoughtfulness in your remedial post.
I've heard people say they wish horses could talk. For those of us with sensitive, caring natures, it's probably just as well that they can't!
Interested to hear again from tessaloreilly, the OP, to see how they're getting on.
Aww Mal, that is very kind of you thank you. I agree, I'm not sure I could bear the pain of the tales from the horses mouth - it is astonishing that they bother with us at all
Domestic animals don't have a great deal of choice in the matter. They have to rely on us, their owners, for all welfare and maintenance. Our responsibility is to listen to what they have to say.
I am in agreement with all responders who suggest this is a discomfort/pain reaction. The OP, regrettably, seems to have become implicated in the horse's mind.
This original comment may be the focus point:
> He kicks out when I try to put the saddle on
Take a good long look at all aspects of the saddle, the blanket and his cinch. Has he changed shape over the years? Does this saddle still fit? When the underlying problem is identified, all of the reported behaviours will suddenly fall into place.
Never forget that you love him, but please stay safe as you work through the issues.
very nicely broken down into baby steps vicci - very good advice.
Widgymaphlip, I'm sure we've all had that moment when we realised we'd fitted in to the mould of whips and how to use them to force a horse to go forward. Thankfully we've all seen there is a better way and it feels good to be apart of it.
x
Dear all,
I am quite new in Monty's family. One month ago I subscribed to his online university after I have seen him live in one of his shows in 2014 in Germany. Even being not anymore a younger (58 years old) I bougth 3 years ago my first horse as 90% green raider or horse trainer. It is a pinto comming from a farmer from Poland and he was in that time 3 years old!
I am so happy to see and to read that so many people are taking care and giving somebody advices from their experiences with horses!
Now to the fact I wanterd to write about: After watching Mr. Roberts in his show I imediatly was 100% convinced of his methods and almost lovig him for his clear, precise and most of them very funny way to explain his methods. One day some months ago I have seen him in TV saying that if you loves horses you can not make much wrong in training them. Here I must say I do not agree with Mr. Roberst. And I believe that many issues described above are a result of bad understanding loving horses.
In my oppinion the horses are no dogs or cats and thinking to their power, a bit or a kick can have the most bad consequences!
Even the children can get bad behauviors due to the overvalming love from the mother!
Bevor I got my horse to home studied him for two days without any conntact to him (maybe only visually) He convinced me that with persons and other horses was a quite normal young horse!
In the first year I worked an leading him on halter, grumming and going together to graze! The result was that he came to me from everywhere as he saw me.
In the second year a started to work him on ground increasing the trust between us bbeing able to lead him by voce to left, right, back, stop and go. The pick of our trustfully relationship was staying up on the saddle, going on four legs between his legs from one side to other side. I know, somebody could say it his quit risky and can have a bad end. But I tried and he did move one inch! Later I rode him in the arena without saddle only halter seating backwards on his back in walk tempo. I am not a stunt!!! Only in the third year a put the saddle on and rode him everywhere without any problems!
I know, Mr. Roberst gets all these things in about 30 minutes but we are not Mr. Roberts!!!
And now my conclusion: You can do everything with your horse respecting following conditions:
1. Give him time, don't push him to his limits
2. Build up a 100% trust relationship to your horse
3. Be calm and patient with your horse. On bad days or if one isI stressed from the job better don't go to him or if do nothing with him only spent the time together without any cues and requests. My horse reflects my mind, mude and soul like he would keep a mirror in front of my nose.
4. Love your horse respecting him and not spoiling him. We have bad and good days so the horses!
5. Check regulary his healthy as your own! My horse got sometimes diaree (wet excrements). I was very worried it could be some bad thing but I find out it happends always he do not see me longer then one week (being on business trips)
6. And finally the horses make no failure. The react only. The failure must be fnd out in us the human beeing!
I hope my experience with my horse could help one or more of Mr. Roberts students or funs!
Lovely greetings to all of you!
Milenco
Nice to meet you Milenco, a lovely account of your relationship with your horse, welcome to the forum.
Milenco, Hi. No, we are not all Monty Roberts, & you are right that you must go at the horses pace. Monty gets work done in demonstrations in 30 minutes, but thats often to show people how to work with that problem, he doesn't do that with all horses, he too must go at the pace the horse sets, BUT he will work with a difficult horse for hours on end to build the trust up between them - how many of us will put that much effort in?
It sounds like you have a lovely relationship with your horse, enjoy the lessons on the uni.
Hi Vicci and Beryl,
you made me really happy with the fast feedback to my comment :=))
To be onest I did not expect such a quick reaction from anybody. You gave me a little courage to continue even I'm not a "experienced" horse trainer or raider!
I read today my comment once again and I found out some write failures. Please excuse me, I'm not a English native speaker and yesterday I had maybe 120 beats pulse during writing my comment. But I hope you can understand what I meen in my comments.
Thanks again and we keep in touch comming back for sure with other experiences with my horse Chattoo!
Joining in the conversation late as usual here :D
Nice to meet you Milenco, I'm know you will learn a lot and become confident with your training skills as you follow Monty's methods.
Don't worry about spelling errors, we do speak english and still get it wrong many times. If I'm on the iPad it sometimes self corrects the words and I don't notice.
If you get stuck, remember to ask for help there is always one of us at least on here each day.
Mel
x
You write very good English Milenco, I didn't have a problem reading it!
Chattoo is a lovely name, no need to be nervous on here, we are all learning from Monty & each other, We learn all our lives & it sounds like you are doing very well.
Beryl
Hi Milenco,
When you watch a live Monty Roberts demonstration, you are seeing, in person and right there and then, one of the worlds finest animal communicators in action. As he says; co-mmunication. Two way dialog.
I have attended quite a few. One time, a loader went on the trailer, but not to Monty's full satisfaction, the horse was still cagey. Demo finished about 22:30. I stayed on, just the two of us, as Monty continued to work with this horse; watching, studying, asking questions, until 01:00 hours. Cold night too - my feet were freezing!
Then full understanding came. Monty adjusted the rig in a very minor way, and the horse's anxiety went right down. Job done. (If anyone's interested, I'll post again with a fuller description.)
My dialog with Monty was confined to occasional eye contact only. A wonderful couple of hours. I learned more from that experience than any amount of book reading could have delivered.
I hope that the Original Poster is keeping up with this thread, and that these anecdotal tales will assist in finding a way forward for her, in co-operation with her horse.
Hi Mal, you are so right, I saw Monty a couple of weeks after i got Libby; 3 hours of watching the master at work taught me so much, then i bought the text book from my hands to yours at the demo. I've seen him about 3 times & each time he reduces me to tears with him ability to help problem horses.
Emotion runs deep during live demos. I'd like to explore this aspect.
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Rather than take tessaloreilly's thread off-topic, I'm going to start a new one and see if the forum can shed any light on just why we all get so "affected" at those times.