Hi guys, sorry it’s been a while-odd shifts and woods hasn’t been too good. As always, I could really do with some advice! Now I will try and keep this as short as possible, but you might want to grab yourself a cuppa!
The thing that has happened is Woods attacked his field mates the other day and now has to be on his own. I am confident I understand why due the lead up to this , which I will try and explain-obviously please give your thoughts too. But my question is this-how do I now get him back out with a herd?
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Background on Woods-he has always been the friendliest boy with other horses and people. He never seemed to understand when a horse pulled a face at him. He lived out in a mixed herd when I first had him, no out of the ordinary issues there. Then out with two geldings who from word go used to play fight all the time-rearing, bucking, chase me and never once did they connect, it really was a good fun play. At this yard where we have been now nearly a year, he seemed to settle pretty quickly and we think Borri, my friends horse he was out with, knew each other as youngsters by the way they took straight to each other (both being party new forest, same age and usually Borri ignores other horses) He was originally out with four others, two left which left him with Borri and Simms, both owned by my friend. Woods also hates being on his own and would escape if anyone got brought in first. Thankfully everyone at the yard accepted this and would get him in first for me. .
A couple of months ago my friend started to take her two home for the weekend/ week at a time, which obviously upset woods. But we managed to work it so he went out for half a day next to a 36 yr old who I can only assume woods saw as a leader as he would stay out happily if this oldie was out. At the same time Woods got diagnosed with cushings and started on the drug prescend. This made him depressed and go off his food. Not Woods. This is a usually side effect and I kept getting told by the vet he would come out of it so we carried on and he did get a little better, still fussy, still not that happy but we could do things and he seemed to enjoy it what we did.
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Woods then escaped form the field in with the oldie and on the morning I was going on holiday, I was told he would have to go out in the summer field, where the grass was up to his knees for full days (yard owner was too busy to do half) I got sp upset as thought of all the things that could go wrong, but my friend came back with hers and other people told me they would keep an eye and deal with it should anything happen. My partner was stranded half way to our destination so I decided to go.
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I came back to a horse that was totally off his food, painful belly and uninterested in everything. Vet came out, could only find uncomfortable pony. Unbeknown to me, my friend had taken hers home a day or so after I went away and Woods had been on his own. He is next to a mixed herd and hasn’t escaped but every eve would come in calling and looking for his friends. Woods went up and down health wise for the next couple of weeks but has now mainly settled, eating most of his feed, seeming more into life but still not the pest of a pony I am used to, especially in the eves.
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His friends then came back and there were a few bite marks on them, kick marks on woods, but by this time they had been apart for a month. ( I will just say, I thought they were coming back a lot sooner otherwise I was going to integrate him with the herd next door to him) The next day Borri was already out with Woods and my friend turned Simms out after. She said Woods stared hard at them, but it’s Woods, she thought nothing of it. He then pinned his ears back and charged, teeth bared. My friend managed to get out of the way but Woods pinned Simms in a corner and was biting him. Borri then came up and got inbetween them and Woody started on him. The horses in the next field started cantering round and Woods would alternately run the fence line next to them, have a scuffle with one of the geldings over the fence (this gelding has gone for Woods over the fence previously) but my friend said when Penny, one of the mares (she might have been in season) ran round near the fence, that was when Woods would then go back and attack Borri and Simms. When she went away he would run the fence line ect. My friend then managed to get both her boys out and now Woods is on his own again.
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His friends then came back and there were a few bite marks on them, kick marks on woods, but by this time they had been apart for a month. ( I will just say, I thought they were coming back a lot sooner otherwise I was going to integrate him with the herd next door to him) The next day Borri was already out with Woods and my friend turned Simms out after. She said Woods stared hard at them, but it’s Woods, she thought nothing of it. He then pinned his ears back and charged, teeth bared. My friend managed to get out of the way but Woods pinned Simms in a corner and was biting him. Borri then came up and got inbetween them and Woody started on him. The horses in the next field started cantering round and Woods would alternately run the fence line next to them, have a scuffle with one of the geldings over the fence (this gelding has gone for Woods over the fence previously) but my friend said when Penny, one of the mares (she might have been in season) ran round near the fence, that was when Woods would then go back and attack Borri and Simms. When she went away he would run the fence line ect. My friend then managed to get both her boys out and now Woods is on his own again. .
His friends then came back and there were a few bite marks on them, kick marks on woods, but by this time they had been apart for a month. ( I will just say, I thought they were coming back a lot sooner otherwise I was going to integrate him with the herd next door to him) The next day Borri was already out with Woods and my friend turned Simms out after. She said Woods stared hard at them, but it’s Woods, she thought nothing of it. He then pinned his ears back and charged, teeth bared. My friend managed to get out of the way but Woods pinned Simms in a corner and was biting him. Borri then came up and got inbetween them and Woody started on him. The horses in the next field started cantering round and Woods would alternately run the fence line next to them, have a scuffle with one of the geldings over the fence (this gelding has gone for Woods over the fence previously) but my friend said when Penny, one of the mares (she might have been in season) ran round near the fence, that was when Woods would then go back and attack Borri and Simms. When she went away he would run the fence line ect. My friend then managed to get both her boys out and now Woods is on his own again. .
His friends then came back and there were a few bite marks on them, kick marks on woods, but by this time they had been apart for a month. ( I will just say, I thought they were coming back a lot sooner otherwise I was going to integrate him with the herd next door to him) The next day Borri was already out with Woods and my friend turned Simms out after. She said Woods stared hard at them, but it’s Woods, she thought nothing of it. He then pinned his ears back and charged, teeth bared. My friend managed to get out of the way but Woods pinned Simms in a corner and was biting him. Borri then came up and got inbetween them and Woody started on him. The horses in the next field started cantering round and Woods would alternately run the fence line next to them, have a scuffle with one of the geldings over the fence (this gelding has gone for Woods over the fence previously) but my friend said when Penny, one of the mares (she might have been in season) ran round near the fence, that was when Woods would then go back and attack Borri and Simms. When she went away he would run the fence line ect. My friend then managed to get both her boys out and now Woods is on his own again.
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His friends then came back and there were a few bite marks on them, kick marks on woods, but by this time they had been apart for a month. ( I will just say, I thought they were coming back a lot sooner otherwise I was going to integrate him with the herd next door to him) The next day Borri was already out with Woods and my friend turned Simms out after. She said Woods stared hard at them, but it’s Woods, she thought nothing of it. He then pinned his ears back and charged, teeth bared. My friend managed to get out of the way but Woods pinned Simms in a corner and was biting him. Borri then came up and got inbetween them and Woody started on him. The horses in the next field started cantering round and Woods would alternately run the fence line next to them, have a scuffle with one of the geldings over the fence (this gelding has gone for Woods over the fence previously) but my friend said when Penny, one of the mares (she might have been in season) ran round near the fence, that was when Woods would then go back and attack Borri and Simms. When she went away he would run the fence line ect. My friend then managed to get both her boys out and now Woods is on his own again.
from it, even though I think a new field would be best-not his territory. Also, Woods has never shown such interest in mares before-is this something that can just happen? Would being on his own spark it off? And can someone explain the attack behaviour for me i.e why biting not kicking, running the fence line ect. I am taking him off the prescend as it also has a side effect of aggression, although he hasn’t shown any other signs of it so far. When I go into the field with him, he doesn’t look stressed but I’m not with him all day. I hate that my horse is in this state of mind and that was his response to his friends who I know he misses. He needs to get back in with a herd and feel safe. How can I do this safely for all involved? Help! And thank you in advance.
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Horse Behavior and Training
He needs a herd!!
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Good morning; I am not sure that what I say will help you , but I will try and shed some light on what I think is happening with these horses.
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Herd dynamics can be confusing to most people because the majority of horse owners do not have horses that live in a herd setting and they simply are not aware of the interaction that takes place between horses. This really gets complicated when there is more than one owner involved and no continued interaction of humans with the horses. Horses need to be approached, stroked, talked to and handled all over on a daily basis if we are to truly have a connection with them as a partner. This is called continued imprinting and built one step at a time.
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.Horses in a herd setting will achieve a BALANCE to their everyday activities; ie. grazing, drinking [waterhole rituals], feeding times, and sleeping times. Younger horses, especially geldings, sometimes will play by the hour ie. nip and chase or jaw. Whenever this ritual is disturbed, it seems to take a few days for them to establish another form of activity. Their comfort zones have been uprooted. With all of this, we humans must consider another very important aspect, HERD HIERARCHY. I can`t stress enough to you how IMPORTANT this is to our horses. It is the building blocks of their perception of SAFETY and is a HUGE source comfort or discomfort to the comings and goings of every horse in that setting. Horses are keenly aware of their environment and any changes that might happen. Now consider the scenario that removes all the horses but one from the herd. That remaining horse will probably experience the complete spectrum of emotional overload [flooding] known as SEPARATION ANXIETY. Now go one step further and think about these horses returning to the herd area after an extended absence. Everyday RITUALS are so very important to horses, and that is exactly WHY Monty uses the term RITUALISTIC HABITUATION in his training of horses.
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.I really don`t know what to suggest to you as solution other than getting together with the other owners and attempt to think this through to place where the horses and the different owners can create a better scenario that considers the well being of the horses in a herd setting. I realize that this gets to be very complicate when the land that the horses are quartered on belongs to other people.
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.As far as the diagnosis of cushings is concerned, as a farrier and a PETE RAMEY disciple, I would look at carbohydrate overload as the culprit with your horse. I would suggest that you keep his toe length short and limit his grazing. Also, when horses get really upset ie. emotional overload, they often get a histamine reaction that can lead to myriad of hoof disorders.
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.Owning and caring for horses can take us all on a journey into uncharted waters while disturbing our comfort zones. Horses are Natures` finest creation and they will continually stretch us to understand the WHATS AND WHYS they do what they do. The only thing that is predictable about them is their unpredictability.
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.Good luck my friend
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Bud
Nicely put Bud.
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When Seaton was taken away from Jenny, she stood in the middle of the field totally off her food and grazing for 3 days until we got him back to her, she's a 16h warmblood but ate less than a shetland over those 3 days.
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Unlike humans Widgymaphlip when horses haven't been with each other for a month or longer, the hierarchy rules come back into play. For us humans it's a hug and fantastic to see you. For horses it's visitors into my space and I'll defend it. Bud puts it quite well, so won't put too much else.
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Lost track of names as I was reading through, but to rectify this situation you'll need to create a small electric pen area within Woods Field and put the other two in there for a couple of days for Woods to see who they are again. They'll start to talk safely over the electric, there might be some kicking and squeaking, but they'll all be alert to the electric which will hold them back a bit.
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We're just in the process of integrating 2 herds, our 6 with another mare and gelding. To do this the newbies Jenny and Seaton were put in the carrel in the field for 3 days, this allowed for chatting over the fence. Day 3 we let them into a small electric area where more contact can be done. Day 4 we remove the electric and the chasing starts, we're now at day 13 and they were all standing together tonight as we left. Only one injury on Seaton with a fairly deep cut to his back leg, everyone a few bite marks but on the whole it's all calmed down and they can now be a herd of 8 not 6 :D.
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Hope it helps
Mel
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Thanks guys! Yes Bud i totally agree with how important herds are-hence my panic now! The settling in period i do understand, and the hierarchy, it was just none of us had seen woods act like that at all before, it was relentless and one of the horses isn't well. I am struggling to find someone to introduce him too and it may be i will have to move him:( He has seemed so happy here, but i know he needs a herd, to feel safe, to be an actual horse. Where i used to be a groom, i saw the result of a couple of horses who weren't allowed in with others... it's so unnatural for them and they become so wired.
I was curious as to why he would intermittently run the fence line and bite-no kicks?
And yes i think when i do find someone it will be an over the fence job! T
Thanks guys. Jess x
Hi Jess, When I put my stallions out in another part of the farm for their daily exercise, they continually walk the fence line until the rest of the herd comes into sight. They are usually separated but by an empty pasture. Yes, I would call that separation anxiety, but also with a stallion, testosterone comes into the picture. I can`t really comment on the biting issue other than maybe Woods is pissed and is demonstrating his feelings with aggression .
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.I would suggest that YOU find a way to settle him and show him that you can be a partner by making him feel good {grooming] maybe. With a little time, care and attention, you might be able to change his world for the better.
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I hope this helps
Bud
Hi Jess
Could you get a video of Woods doing this so we can see if there is anything in particular that's getting to him??
Post in the FB Online uni group?
Mel
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Hiya,
Yeah i'm wondering if the meds have caused a slight hormone change or the fact he has to be on guard might have done as he did, from what was seen, act a bit like a stallion...? Also one of the mares was in season-he's never shown interest in mare in or out of season before-could this trigger a behavior change with everything else going on?
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As i said he has never acted like this before and until his friends came back he would call and look for them-when they did i took him to see them over the stable doors and he nickered at them softly in greeting and they touched noses and then carried on eating.
When I get him in/ turn out he seems fine and in the yard with other horses he is his usual self-still a proper gent with the kids (although we are being very careful) While he was on the meds he would come in and pretty much fall asleep on me-almost like a sigh of relief to feel safe again. He's perkier now off the meds (nearly there being my usual pest again-oh how i've missed that!)we do a lot of things together and i've tried to spend as much time as possible with him so he doesn't feel alone and he gets that tactile-ness that i know helps him.
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My friend did manage to video the last part of it which i haven't seen yet so will try and get it and out it up on the group.
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Thank you both so much again
jess x
Jess, sometimes these things are tough to pin-point, but it sounds like your making some head- way back toward normalcy. [The low nickering and touching of noses without incident are all signs that the FIGHT instinct has migrated somewhere else]. I hope that is the case for you, my friend. In re-reading some the above texts, you intimate about Wood`s happiness and how that has changed so drastically. I would suggest that you use that as a barometer to help him re-engage himself to the soft side side of his personality. I find myself having to do this with these young stallions at times as their hormones mix up everything that we have worked on to make them into GOOD citizens. This can be a challenge to me personally because at times the aggression can become overwhelming and in a place that is difficult for me to control. To control the horse`s emotional high`s and ease his mind, as the CUP FULL OF WORRY is emptied out and becomes stress free, demonstrates horsemanship at its best. It is very difficult skill for humans to learn and every horse brings a little different" HOW TO" to the table of learning.
. One never knows about the Meds. They certainly can redirect a horse`s thoughts and actions and make them appear to act differently.
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My hope is that you and your friends,that also have their horses in the pasture, can help each other.
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.All the best
Bud