Hi
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Have you checked the videos on catching your horse ? http://www.montyrobertsuniversity.com/training/2031188650
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From what you describe i think maybe you'd need to repeat the procedure, with the join up several days in a row, not just the one time and once you've done that "intense" traning several days in a row see what she thinks about it.
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If you have no urgent reason to catch her it could be good to give her some time, maybe a day or two, to just think about what you've showed her, and then attempt to catch her again. I encourage you to use the search function of the forum to look up the Chair technique that Bud explained a few times in other topics, it seems like a vey good and efficient way to deal with your issue.
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Good luck !

Type : CHAIR CHALLENGE in the search toolbar, you'll get the two topics ;)

Thanks for the advice. She is a rescue and we don't know much about her past. It seems pretty certain she experienced some abuse. I will try (1)the chair challenge, then (2)the chair challenge near her feeding tray then (3)the 5 piles of hay, in that order. Depending on how well she responds will determine how quickly I move from one to the next. I'll keep you posted on the results.

Hi. Continue to use Join up. Her confidence will increase in you as a trustworthy leader. You can do up to about 10 Join ups before many horses get bored with having the same conversation. Your girl may have many really bad memories. My Humphrey, who had repeated nerve blocks earlier this year, is now phobic about hands on his shins although you can conventionally lift his feet for hoof picking & the farrier. We are working on it - needles hurt! Humphreys not kicking but rapidly moving his feet away from my hand. We started, unrestrained, by walking with my hand on his shoulder. We've moved that hand down to his knee/hock - this is with all his legs not just the one with the pastern ligament problem. Patience will get you your reward. Don't force your horse & build or rebuild trust - it's a winner everytime! I wish you success & welcome to the Uni. Cheers, Jo.

Hello DL. Welcome to the forum and thank you for your question. You have described a situation with your new horse that can be dangerous for you; So please be careful.
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.Whenever a horse conducts themselves in a manner that you describe while attempting to enter their area of confinement, they are saying NO to sharing this space with you and they are willing to FIGHT WITH YOU to protect that space [hence the baking up and kicking out at you]. With what you have told us about the other aspects of her behaviour, this doesn`t seem to be in-keeping with WHO SHE IS. WHY SHE IS ACTING THIS WAY could be from passed treatment and she is just tired of being pushed around..
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.The number one issue, as I see it, is to bring about an element of politeness and respect between the the two of you. In order for you to accomplish this, you must be respectful TOWARD her, while demanding respect FROM her. This action can be a two-edged sword, so give it some time to think it through before beginning the action. You will need a longe whip for protection. THIS IS NOT TO STRIKE THE HORSE WITH, but to reinforce your resolve toward leadership. You must be able to to move her away from the gate so can enter her area safely. Once you have accomplished that, settle yourself [deep breathing] and move her ahead FROM BEHIND before taking the pressure off of her. This is a natural way that horses inter-act with each other so she will recognize this action from you. The next step that i would do is to invite her to share space with you. If she does, you might give her a treat as a reward while giving her loving scratches. Tell her that she has nothing to worry herself about and that you are here to take care of her while sharing your life with her. Time will probably help to relax her in her new home. Remember that horses are KEENLY aware of their environment and new surroundings can be a challenge until the aspect of familiarity is hard-wired into them.
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.I would hope that if you can get by this hurdle with entering her area, things will get better. Please keep us informed of your progress; and be safe.

All the best
Bud

While I am a huge advocate of the 'chair challenge' and have recommended this approach a few times I do not feel that it is safe to do it with this horse at the moment in a confined space but you may feel that there is enough trust there through the Join Up to try it. This poor horse has been scared and learned to defend herself - something they only do as a last resort.
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While I agree completely with Bud's approach I would just offer one word of caution. It is possible that she has been struck with a lunge whip as part of a vicious cycle of someone hitting her/she kicks/they hit her/she sees the whip coming, anticipates pain/kicks out as soon as she sees it. An alternative might be to take in something that she is unlikely to have seen like a bamboo cane with a piece of white cloth on or something similar - it's only to wave at her to send her away. Be sure to make the stick/flag completely inactive when she engages with you - not even a flicker otherwise she will be confused.
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What do you think Bud?

Hi Vicci and all; You could be right -on spot with your thoughts, Vicci. Better to be as safe as possible. I use a short whip [4` long] with a long flag attached to the end of the string. Whatever you use to get her to move away from the gate, CAUTION AND FOCUS must be the order of the day after entering her corral. Walk behind her at a safe distance [out of the kicking zone] and just keep her moving away from you as you follow her for a minute or two. After that, take the pressure off of her and allow her to just be. The next step would be to invite her into your space after a pause of a minute or two. The next step is totally up to her as she sums up what she thinks your intentions are all about. My hope is that if you had any fear when entering the area, that it had left you by now; because you must evoke a soft,inviting, confident safe feel for her to respond to.
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.This whole approach was used hundreds of years ago by the Native American Indians in the great plains area and was called WALKING A HORSE DOWN. When they came upon a wild mustang that they wanted, they would trail the horse as close as possible for miles that led sometimes into days. They would alternate following and walking away from the horse until the horse would hook on to their energy and follow them into camp. They became masters at acquiring horses in this manner.
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.DL, the main thing is for you to remain safe. If you think that you can do this, then try. If you have reservation, there`s always another day. Your thoughts must be clear for everything to work.
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Good luck and please keep us informed.
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Bud

As I read through your first bit Bud, I thought 'past experience' like Vicci.
I'll only add on to your comments not to back up from the horse, our natural instinct is to back away, however in Equus backing up is part of dominance and the slightest backing up will be noted. Stand firm but safe or moving forwards, keep body language upright, square shoulders. I use a tail whip, it's basically a dressage whip with additional bits on the end to act as a tail, holding it behind I flick it as a horse would to show my seriousness in what I'm asking, especially if it's go away. Have a whip out in front of you can bring in temptation or mishap to use it especially if you're not used to a horse that shows dominance over you, a fear reaction could cause it to be used by mistake.
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When working with problem horses or horses who have been allowed to dominate humans, when the first encounter happens in round pen or school bucking out is a big probability, they are realizing you are taking the lead and are rebelling against it. Continue to be the leader and things will change.
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Look forward to seeing how you've gotten on DLCconsul, keep safe!
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Mel
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Thank you all for your input and advice. I started by just sitting in the holding pen while she was fed the first 2 days, the third day I made 3 piles of hay and moved her from pile to pile allowing her to eat a couple of bites before moving her to the next. the 4th day about an hour after she had finished eating I moved around the pen by using a long line and tossing it behind her like join-up only at a walk because of the limited size of the pen. I discovered that she would then allow me to reach out and scratch her withers but would move away if I tried to touch her head. Yesterday about an hour after she had eaten I entered her pen and after short while she came to me and offered her withers for a scratch she allowed me to scratch her withers and back. I was able to slip a lead rope over her neck and holding it under her chin I led her around the pen several times. I removed the lead rope for a few minutes of quality time and she followed me around the pen a few times then found a place to relax in the shade. Today I will attempt to put the dually halter on her and do join-up in the round pen. Thanks for all of your advice. Dan

Wow Dan,wonderful progress, you've done such a good job of giving her what she needs to help her trust you. Congratulations

Hello Dan; Super news on your part. I am very happy for the progress that you had with your mare. Sometimes i think our horses drag us through a knot-hole backwards trying to figure out how we can be better partners for them. CONGRATULATIONS on taking your time and developing a plan.
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As Vicci stated, you have shown that mare that you can be trusted. Keep up the great work, but still be very vigilant until you FEEL that she can be trusted with your safety. ALWAYS give her an escape route.
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Please keep us posted.
Bud

Incremental steps Dan! Well Done!
As Bud says, do keep us posted!
Mel
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I have a rescued mini that I've had a hard time reaching. I was bitten and kicked at. He was impossible to catch, wouldn't allow me to touch him anywhere. It seemed that the more I tried the more defensive he became. I kept him in a round pen for quite some time for his safety. I couldn't do join up with him because it would send him into a frenzy. The day I decided I wasn't going to expect anything from him and quit trying was the day the barrier came down. The pressure was off. We now do join up and slow, quiet, intentional groundwork. I can now run my hands over his head and ears without him rearing or head-butting me. Now I get a full on look from him when I enter the paddock or his stall. Tonight he came to me when I called him. I learned that less is more. I hope you can glean something from my experience.

Dan, you have just discovered what horses have been able to do for thousands of years--READ OUR INTENTIONS before we enter their area. They ZEN MASTERS AT THIS..
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You were probably the first individual to approach this mini in a very long time with NO AGENDA on that day, just wanting to BE WITH HIM, and he let down his shields to give you and his TRUST a chance to develop.
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.Thank you for sharing this with us be cause the breakthrough for you is HUGE. This is a POWERFUL DYNAMIC for us humans to keep in our thoughts when working with horses.
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.All the best and thanks
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. Bud

Hi 'gansens' (can you share your name with us please) = what a wonderful reminder to us all to thik about what it is like from horses point of view and to go from where they are AT not where we want to BE. Thanks for sharing that with us :-)

Sorry Gansens, I just assumed that was Dan`s post. My reply would be the same, however. Again, thanks for your post.

Bud

Lovely reminder that different methods used without any force all work!! For the most scared horses we've always found patience very valuable.
Mel
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