Hi all,
I am studiing the lessons dually halter. When I watch the one "preparing for the farrier" Monty says at 03.40 min. of the videotime "look him in the eye and ask him to stand still" Can anyone please explain to me why Monty is looking him in his eye (s). Or do I not understand it right?
What I understand from other lessons is that the best you can do is not look in the horses his/her eyes because of the adrinaline and the threat, because he/she can run away from the "danger" to survive. I understand join-up, looking in the eyes and later don't look in the eyes and turn around, let's say the whole proces.
I watched also the video "stand still" and I can't realy see clearly if Monty is looking in the eye(s) of the horse, when he let him stand still.
In what kind of circumstances do you have or can you look in the eyes of the horse? If I want to communicate with my horse and I want to see how she is, I like to look at/into her eyes( I know there are more ways to communicate with the horse). Maybe that's the answer...., I can look AT her eyes but not INTO her eyes???
I understand that the horse can see what I am saying with my eyes, in what kind of mood I am.
I also red, in the book from my hands to your hands, chapter 2 advance and retreat - eyes on eyes, but I still don't understand when I can look the horse in the eyes without chasing him away.
Can somebody out there help me out?
Thanks for your responces
Kind regards May, from Holland.
Help!!!????
Honestly after watching all of Monty's Ground Work Video's it became Very Clear about the go away meaning with the eyes.
I quit wearing my glasses when I was with my horses and much of the communication barrier was gone. I watched the ground work videos more closely paying attention to Monty and the Horses body movements. How did Monty Turn what angle was his eyes? How did the horse reaction. The Lessons about catching the horses in the pasture was my turning point. Monty Clearly explains the eyes in it. Try watching those 5 Lessons closely. Listen to Monty's comments in the background.
When I use my eyes like Monty does my horse and I are productive. When my horse and I stare at each others eyes it is a show down. My guy is Alpha all the way and sometimes has to question my authority. I must say that now that Joey (gelding)has settled into our family there are times when he has the softest eye and then he doesn't seem to mind me gazing in his eye. When I gaze at him it is when I have a Huge Fondness for him in my heart. Which is Totally Different then when I am working with him.
Hi Again May
Did you Read Montys Comments under the Q&A Tab. There are 2 June 22nd and more importantly June 8th.
I am sure this will help.
Cheers
Hi Amberpony,
Thank you for your suggestions.
I will go through does lessons again. I alraedy did and watched and listend what comments Monty gave. But it is worth to watch the lessons again. Yes, I also red the comments on the Q and A and red it again.
Do I understand when you are working with your horse you do like Monty does and when you are not working you can use your eyes on your horse in a different way?
Kind regards, May
Hi May,
I read your post "eyes on eyes" and thought I'd answer here.
When you work with the Duallyhalter, you establish between the horse and yourself a communication, first with pressure on the trainingline over the nose, later with only your bodylanguage, like "rocking" the horse back and forth. Then you can increase the distance between horse and you by taking a step back, looking the horse in the eye in a soft manner, to prevent him from stepping forward.
You can try this in front of a mirror, looking very intently or softer into your own eyes and feel the difference.
Let us know if you got the picture, watch the lesson again, trying to see when Monty uses this technique.
Hope this helps,
Miriam
Hi Miriam,
Thanks for this.
It is funny, because yesterday I worked with Luuk, a two year old, training stand still. This was his second training in stand still and also my second training with the dually. So I did excectly what Monty sais and what you say, stand in front of him and I did very slowly 2 steps backwords (maybe 1 step to much, but he stood still) and looked him in the eyes.
What I also did was square my shoulders, face up to him and I could see that Luuk was reacting on this with his head, it went up. Like oops... what is going on hear? I looked strait into his eyes and he looked back and still stood still. I just wanted to try and see what happend. When I watch the lesson I can see how Monty is standing and has his shoulders.
Tomorrow I will do the soft way, don't square my shoulders and will soften my eyes on him and have a relaxed way of standing. See what happens then. I will practice tonight with looking in the mirror, good idea and I will watch the lesson again, before I start tomorrow with Luuk.
I must say Luuk is a very gentle young boy, who likes everything and loves to have fun. Well I will tell you he has a lot of fun, by doing the training and running around in the paddock and I give him a lot of love and respect.
Thank you again and I will tell you the results.
Kind regards, May.
May
It looks like you are getting some good advise. I just wanted to add that looking a horse in the eye or for that matter any animal or human is not neccessarly a threatening gesture. into their eyes is a threat. So when you first start working with a new horse you try to avoid a long look into their eyes.
Looking directly into their eyes and holding their gaze can also communicate trust and caring. I personally take my time every day to look my horse in the eye and hold his face while I talk to him in a calm voice. I have been doing this since I got him 8 years ago so it something that he is use to as well as looks forward to. He will come up to me and put his face into mine wanting attention.
In training, as you are finding out, there is no one way to do things, but there are concepts that are important. You want to command your horse, but have him willingly comply. It has to be a partnership. Looking directly into his eyes when asking him to do something should only convey that you mean what you are asking and not trying to intimidate him.
Cheers
Hi May,
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Thanks so much for this question, the posts here have really helped me :-)
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Kind regards,
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Gen
He has you look the horse in the eye as a way of asking him to stand still and not to go forward. Hope that helps.
Very good question May and one that gives us all plenty of room for more thinking re what our eyes mean to herd animals- horses, sheep and cattle in my experience. My thinking is that eyes down, relaxed body language, sometimes side on not full front on, moving away if our animal is a little spooked and then slowly back again are the necessary submissive type body language that tells our animals that we are not predators but friends and wish to make friendly contact. This body language is especially important when we are first introducing ourselves to our animals and trying to gain their trust but remains as an essential ingredient for all our communications with animals. Once we have gained our animals trust and friendship then at times(e.g. at the commencement of join up)it is necessary to tell our animal to back off or pay more attention to us and accepts us not only as friends but also as leaders. At these times then our body language and eye contact change so that we can use them to communicate to our animal that they should pay us more attention. This is the body language used when we wish our horse to go out from us for join up - eyes on, frontal position, arms and hands up, shaking of a lunge or lead rope etc.- all aggressive signals telling our horse to move out and away from us as now we are a preditator. When our horse is showing all the submissive signs of join up then we too can return to our submissive lets be friends language as now our horse accepts that we are their leader and they would rather be friends with us. They have just experienced the more aggressive nature of our communication and didn't like it much. Join up is an excellent example of the two extremes of aggressive and submissive animal language and our eyes play such an important role. When we wish our horse to stand still we will step back with eyes on signalling to the horse - stay there as if you do not we may become even more aggressive. When we wish our horse to come to us or when we move up to our quietly standing horse we will again drop our eyes and change our body language to say its OK we will come up to you now but we do not wish you to move back or be worried by us - just stand there please. So we need to use BOTH forms of body and eye language when training a horse. I purchased my quarter horse over the phone - he was only 3 years old but the breaker assured me that he had not been mistreated, was extremely quiet and had been broken in via Monty Robert's techniques. Unfortunately he had only had him for a fortnight and I am not sure how much time he spent on him - I suspect very little. When he stepped out of the transport truck he was a very under nourshed probably wormy, scraggy, nervous, funny looking little fellow. I unfairly immediately named him Uggly. He had obviously had some of Monty's training as he was perfect at join up and all you had to do if you wished to catch him was to send him out. He would canter a few circles and then as soon as you turned your back and dropped your eyes he would come trotting up to you. But in order to get his halter on you had to keep your eyes down and away from him the whole time - try it, its fairly tricky as normally we use our eyes to attach the halter and like Dennis we often look directly into our horses eyes at these times. It took me many years to teach Uggs to accept my eyes on him! Uggs did grow into a beautiful looking QH.
Hi all,
Wauw, this helps and these suggestions came just before I am going to start the training with Luuk this morning.
I have a lot to think about now and do it in a way you all suggest.
I am a person who works with my feelings and I think I am on the right track. I don't want to do things wrong, because of the horse's reaction and result.
I will tell you later how things worked out.
Thank you all for your support and good advice.
Kind regards, May
I too was confused about the eye issue. I have a very alpha mare and my trainer has told me to do this or that with my eyes, which didn't seem to match up with Monty's "this or that" with the eyes. I call the two different looks HARD EYES and SOFT EYES. Hard is focused only on the eye, but soft sees the eye plus the rest of the picture. When she stands still and I am sacking her out, I don't look at the eyes, but otherwise I look at her eyes and combine that with body language to communicate.
Yes, I am understanding this better now, and will make sure I re-read Chapter 7 of "From My Hands to Yours" again as Mirium suggests - thanks for that Mirium :-)
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Sometimes I find you can read or watch something a couple of times and not quite get it until someone puts it into different words or context.
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Thanks May for this question! I didn't realise that I didn't quite understand it until you made this post.
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See you later,
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Gen
Sorry Miriam, I just realised I spelt your name incorrectly. Spelling is not one of my strongest points...
Hi Holly - just a confusion with words. What does "sacking her out" mean? Is it the same as bagging?
Hi all,
Dennis I read your comment again and also that is sinking in now as well. Not everybody or something is a thread but in the eyes of a horse it is a thread. I do understand it and I saw so many times now that new things are scarry for a horse.
Last day we moved some pigeons from one cage to on other cage, just ten centimeters from the old cage. The cages where there all the time one with pigeons and one without. And when one of the pigeons was moving around in the new cage and made strange sounds my horse was turning her head and looked with ears upfront and eyes who where saying; what is this??? I told her that it was oké.
So I belief that in the eyes of a horse everything is a thread untill he/she discovers that it doesn't hurt him/her. I also give my horse the chance to look at something what is new and let it sink in as well, without any stress or fear my site.
I am so confinced that a horse can see and feel a lot more than we can do or can relise. I am therfore so glad that I asked the question eyes on eyes, because now I know what to do and even in a situation that is new for the horse I can react in a correct way with my eyes and adrenaline down.
I also get again the fastening/affirmation (I don't know the right expression/word in english, but hopefully you understand me) that eyecontact is one of the first and maybe most importent things in communicating with your horse. Even when we are riding/walking the horse, and there is something spooky (for us? or is it the horse? think about that), we immediatly react with the eyes and body, and adrenaline is going up. You don't have to look at the horse, the horse will look at you and your eyes and feels you, like he is scanning you and the whole situation can get wors because of your reaction. If the horse can trust you as a real!! leader he will more rely on you and I am sure a lot of problems will be solved or even will not excist.
I didn't have the chance to train Luuk yesterday morning because his boss wanted to do an other training himself... no problem at all I also learn from that. But this morning I am going to train Luuk in standing still again. My results and experiences will follow a.s.a.p.
Thank you again for helping me and each other with my "eyeproblem".
Oh, and Maggie I will see what happens when I am looking in the eyes and not looking in the eyes putting the halter on and offcourse do more with your suggestion as well.
It is so good to relise that with this question I put myself and a few of us back to the drawingtable and learning and reading more about this issue.
Everyday a step forward... don't rush and take the time.
Kind regards, May
Hi all,
Yes, yes, yes..... it's working!!!!! Luuk (2 yo) and also his mother Renske (16 yo) reacted in a different way at me when I started with my eye contact in the proper way. It is so good to see how this works and how I am going to understand there languaqe.
With Renske I did one time join-up and with Luuk I didn't. That's because I fell of Renske 7 weeks ago and couldn't walk without cruches.
I already told here that I will do join-up with Luuk (1st time) and Renske again when I can move around normal.
I am looking forward to that and shall see that things are going better in the nearest future.
I am going every day to "my" horses and brush them and give them my full attention. I am around them for most off the time 2 hours per day.
Yesterday evening I was there and I got a "present" from Renske!! A new person was riding on her with no nothing experience. She is realy such a good horse, but when I came to the gate to watch, she saw me, put her ears on me and looked me in the eyes, she reconized me. I gave her the biggest smile I had. Like she was saying; good you are here.
This morning she was whinnying when I came at the farm. She didn't see me and couldn't hear me, because I came on my bike.
Like she already felt my energy. Like contact on a distance.
She was realy asking for my attention and wanted to let me know that she was there. She was also making that law sound (I don't know how you say that in English)a few times.
I went to her and gave her my attention and looked with my soft eyes to her. (I practiced in the mirror, Miriam.)
I don't want to say that I am all right with my explenations what is happening, but it gives me the feeling that I am on the right track.
I understand now what Monty is saying with look him into the eyes. And I will follow the instructions he is giving on the lessons.
Thanks again for all your support, it realy helped me to complete my picture how to work with eyecontact and understand more about the languaqe Equus.
I still have a long way to go to learn more and more, but I love every minute I am spending with those beautifull creatures.
Kind regards, May
Well done, May!
Thank you for asking this question and helping all of us to get a clearer view on such an important item.
Hope you'll be well soon and please let us know how your Join-up's with Luuk and Renske go!
Miriam
hello everyone, sorry if my question is a bit off topic, but, I was wondering, May said that when the mare recognized her she whinnied (not sure I wrote it well). one of the horses from riding club where I ride sometimes whinnyes to me, what should I do than? give or not to give attention to the horse? I did 2 join ups with him and I tried to work with him with dually ( it wasn't so good-probably my mistake)
Kind regards, Mirna
Maria
Do what you would do if a friend said hello. That is what the horse i telling you. They recognize you and acknowledge you.
Cheers
That is cute, Mirma. You obviously successfully joined up with him. I would go and give him a rub on the forehead and say "thanks mate"for the hello.
yeah, good idea, thanks :)
Mirna
Eyes and whinnies...
To all but especially to Dennis regarding looking into your horse´s eyes with LOVE. have you tried breathing into its nostrils? My Willow loves it . I read about it in abook about a medieval veterinary who learned the trade from an arab horse vet (Spanish book, great read: The Horse Healer) and I have done it from the very beginning. Every morning when I go to the stable to feed her (the stable is at home, we live in the country) she is already at her half door head hanging over it when I open the ain door. First thing we do is breathe into each other´s nose. She smells of camomile and mint and other herbs and her breath is warm; I just hope mine is nice for her too but she does like it. Then she usually plays with my hair. But every time I go near her we do the same ritual.
And as for eyes....I am miopic and when I take my glkasses off try as I might my eyes cannot convey strength.... I´m hopeless. At least in the stable..... I realize now that I haven´t really done any "hard looking" in the field... Willow´s big eyes are on me any time I come into her field of vision and she follows me everywhere -particularly when I am hanging the laundry right beside her fence; that seems to be a fascinating chore....Of course, she is my only horse...She did have her first 5 months with her mom and aunts so I expect horse behaviour has been imorinted in her, as Monty says. But also, our situation is different from that of being with more horses....
Anyway, I enjoyed reading these posts very much and wantied to add this thought. Thankyou all!
Good day from Cantabria, Spain!
Christy
Christy
Interestingly enough I do this with every horse that I meet for the first time. I believe that they will remember you if you do this. If you watch two horses meet for the first time that is exactly what they do, except I don't do the snort and squeal part of the greeting.
Cheers
Its funny that you guys mention this, there is a fellow who lives near me who is a great horseman (very gentle), his name is also Monty which I found quite amusing when I first met him :-)
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But when he first met our rescue horse, he did the same thing and Renacer recipricated and seems to recognise him when he comes over like Dennis says. He didn't give an explanation as to why he did this though, he just turned to me and said "gee he is a trusting little fellow isn't he"
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I just thought it was odd at the time, but I will ask him why he does this next time he comes over to see what he says. Very interesting.
Hi Christy this is great. So pleased you mentioned it. If you watch the last couple of the Centaur Series carefully at one stage it appears as if Monty is doing this with Abigail too. I do it too with my horses but it didn't register. I just gently blow into their nostrils occasionally when we are having a love-up session together.
Yes it works and I hadn't even thought about it before!
Some of our neighbours think I am totally nuts because I do not follow the "usual" methods with Willow and they have laughed at me (in a nice manner, I must say) when they see us breathing into each other. But the young girl who sometimes turns Willow out for me has started doing it too and she says she notices the difference.
If you read Spanish or if you can find it translated you will enjoy the book I mentioned: El Sanador de Caballos (The Horse healer) by Gonzalo Giner, a vet turned novelist! very interesting.
Christy
whenever i've tried breathing into my mare's nostrils she either turns her head away or holds her breath until i stop trying to breath in them. she's only blown back twice. Is she saying she doesnt want to be friends? she blows back at other horses. today when it was raining, i think she was lonely so she followed me around the paddock until we stopped where it was dry. then whenever i tried to pat her she would half put her ears back and back away, but if i lowered my hand and looked away and didnt touch her she would come back and happily stand next to me. why? was this a good thing???
Hi calti.jane,
What you're describing here, sounds to me like a bodyposition-issue.
Try to stand square in front of your horse and raise your hand, and then compare standing at a 45 degree angle and notice the difference in reaction. Horses are reactionary animals, they re-act to our stimuli. Another thing might be the distance between you and the horse. When people are unfamiliar to horses, they tend to keep a "safety-distance". Try out what is more comfortable for your horse, close bodycontact, like in a herd, or this safetydistance.
The best way to find out is to try it yourself and see what works for any particular horse.
If you "pat" your horse, you use a method that is unfamiliar in the horse's world, no other horse would pat yours. They do scratch, groom and rub eachother. Starting at the whithers you can try this yourself, extending towards the neck, or hindquarters, down the frontleg etc.
, always "sliding" along the side of the horse, so no square angle.
Will you write us, if you sense the difference in your horse?
Miriam
thank you miriam. i will try this and let you know. I was trying to rub her forehead or scratch her wither but she didnt seem to want contact - just company. it was kinda weird. plus whenever i've tried lockiing my eyes on her eyes- no matter howw hard, soft or sudden- she hardly reacts. she sometimes raises her head slightly, looks away or just stares back.