Hi All
I have found my dually halter very useful, however my 4 yr old has a problem when i back him up. He has always been inclined towards biting, I feel when he feels threatened as he was semi ferral and it has taken us 2 years to make him comfortable around humans and be backed as he is very sensitive and very clever. Interestingly enough he responds to the dually perfectly on forward and stopping and his sweet spot is not to bad. However when i back him up he goes to nip me on the elbow and keeps jabbing at me. I understand i must keep my arm and body as far away as possible from his muzzle as it invites him to bit but am not sure where to go from here. i thought I would use the corridor in our stables to incentivise him to want to back up like in Montys ridden backing up exercises. Any Ideas? P.s he responded unbelievably well in no time at all to Montys mounting block lessons and he would fidget and absolutely not stand still when you tried to mount him before. Now he does it exactly as in the video-which tells me he is quite happy to co-operate if he is comfortable and understands what i'm asking. Many thanks
Hi Helene!
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I do not know what the reason for his biting while backing up is, but I do have an idea. Does he show the same problems when backing up while riding? If so I would say that he might have problems in his back. I would let a chiropractor check him for that.
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Best wishes from Hamburg, Germany
Jasmin
Hi Helene,
After checking his back, as Jasmin suggests above, I would try what Monty writes in "From my hands to yours" touching his shin with your boot, everytime he bites. Before long he'll associates his impulse with his own leg and will look at it, whenever he feels like biting. Distraction used to solve the problem.
Further you could start training your horse to back-up with your bodylanguage, only lightly supported by the Dually.
Keep safe and maybe wear thick stuffings under your sleeves to protect your elbows, so you can keep your own pulserate low.
Keep us posted!
Miriam
A great little trick when dealing with a horse that tries to bite your arm, wear a leather arm cover you will get one from welders.Then you can relax while you deal with the problem in what ever way you decide.
Joe.
Hi Helene - my Tricka used to try to nip me when backing her up but I have found the dually has really helped me with this. Do have his back checked as that is important but if it is just a behavioural problem I am wondering if you are using the dually effectively. For Tricka when she was inclined to be naughty and cheeky I needed to hold the lead rope very close (about 3 inches) to the clip atached to the discipline ring which gave me much more control over her head and mouth than holding it further back. She was becoming quite a monster with the rope halter prior to buying my dually. When asking her to back up with the dually I am standing at the sweet spot facing her with my hand thus placed on the lead rope and initially my eyes averted. Then I put pressure on the dually and say "back up". If there is no immediate response and she moves her head or puts her ears back then my eyes snap onto her. I say a harsh 'NO' as I give her a sharp correction on the rope with my arm staight and elbow locked. As soon as she responds I release the pressure, avert my eyes and say 'goog girl' softly but then I re-enforce the pressure if I ask her to back up more, quick release as soon as she responds. By holding the lead rope close to the discipline ring on the dually and using a strong straight arm I can keep her head away from me if she goes to nip. You do sound as if you may be holding your lead rope further back to try to avoid the proximity with his mouth - the closer the better as then you can control his head so much better but keep your distance by keeping your arm straight. Tricka is pretty perfect these days and very responsive so I no longer need to exert pressure on the dually unless for some unknown reason Tricka chooses not to respond to my "back up" and my movement - she does have a bad back so backing up is harder for her but it is important for her discipline. I try not to over do it. Good luck.
Hi Helene - just re-checked the horse and country.tv UK videos with Monty and Kelly for emlaw and again realised just how good these videos are for learning how to use the dually effectively. Check out these:
1. Horsemanship essentials - Episode 1 at http://www.horseandcountry.tv/episode-monty-and-kelly-horsemanship-essentials-loading
2. Horsemanship essentials - Episode 9 at http://www.horseandcountry.tv/episode-monty-and-kelly-horsemanship-essentials-linesmanship
3. Horsemanship essentials - Episode 20 at http://www.horseandcountry.tv/episode-monty-and-kelly-horsemanship-essentials-learning-lead-and-load
thanks everyone for your input. He has done a lot of backing up under the saddle especially when he feels insecure about something.I had him checked recently with a physio and he was billed clear of back trouble. i tried the tapping his shin with my boot but his reaction was not good. He got such a start he went to take a chunk out of my arm. Thankfully i was wearing a thick jacket so it didn't affect me. However I felt it was maybe not the right approach with him as he tends to get very defensive. I will try again with a thick jacket and a shorter hold on the rope. He has always had a propensity to bite as he was so very wild when we got him. I will keep you posted. Many thanks!
Hi Helene - I recommend the dually with an effective discipline correction every time he goes to take a nip or bite - correct as soon as his ears go back don't waite for the bite! Interesting the the shin tapping didn't work for you either. I tried it on Tricka and she took no notice and just got nastier with it. I guess every horse is different!
Im having backing up issues too. My little fellow is only 10hh and throws his head up everytime i ask him to back up........any ideas? Ive been wondering if it has to do with my arm movement....
Thanks maggie, great to read how you have handled tricka, off to take notice of how i ask for backing up and break down my steps for annalysis ;)
My 4 year old colt is also trying to bite me when I ask him to Back with the dually halter, he will back when I am in front of him but if I am at his side asking him to back he is turning in toward me and trying to bite he does this also when I ask for a right hand turn.. he is getting 6 new teeth in and I wonder if this is part of his problem, I tried tapping his shin, but he just started lifting his leg up every time I lifted my leg to tap him... while still trying to bite me.
Thanks for all the input, i had quite a good session with shadow today. I started by working on the sweet spot for a while before asking him to back up. i'm not sure if its because I used a thick jacket and an arm cover made out of old plastic bottles so I was relaxed and not worried about being bitten or if he was just learning off the halter but he did not try to bite once and he backed up with no pressure on the halter at all. Interestingly enough though when I tried to up the game and run off causing him to trot with me he tried nipping at my shoulder then. This seemed like coltish behavior to me. I decided to move out of the round pen and into open space as if we were going somewhere and then he trotted and stopped each time perfectly with me. Maybe the dually is solving the problem on it's own, I will let you know after a few days. :) Happy training!
Great news Helene. The dually should do it. Sounds as if he was a little bored in the round pen or tired of going in circles.
Hey guys! I am really pleased today as i have found perseverance with the Dually is the key. I watched Monty's videos over and over and am on day 4 after this morning working the sweet spot. I did my breathing and pilates first so was well relaxed and made sure to lead -especially in trot-with confidence. He only threatened to nip once when trotting and I corrected him quickly with the dually. After that he was on the b all. Backing up beautifully with no ears back and trotting when i ran and stopping on the button. I am so pleased. I finished of our session this morning after some work on the side reins too and doing our relaxation in the round pen after, he walked loose next to me and stopped when i stopped and trotted when i ran and then I went up to the mounting block and got on it. I was amazed to see that even with no reins or lead rope on he parked himself side on in the mounting position just like in Monty's video. I had of course done this exercise with tack on him last week following the video lesson. I am so excited:) Viva Monty Roberts!!! P.S Rahni and Ginacide, I found that concentrating more on the forwards and stopping on the sweet spot with the dually helped until he fully understands the rules then try to back him up. Good luck!
Sounds wonderful Helene, and congratulations for persevering and examining your own behaviour and methods; my mentor once told me of a famous French trainer (and of course he is so famous I am damned if I can remember his name!) who said "It is never the horse; always the owner"
;-) So many times I've had to go 'back to the drawing board' and pin down exactly what it is that I am doing wrong!
Well done Helene. This is great news and congratulations for making such fantastic progress.
Well Done Helene! So good to hear about your development - you are a super student! Putting the demands on yourself and listening to your horse! Warmest Ann Lindberg/Sweden
Hi everyone, this one caught my attention as our 2yr 3 month old was doing the same with biting when backing up. There was two things I did to correct it, first was to hold the dually collar at the joint just below where the daully ring was, this helped with keeping his head aligned with his body as I encouraged backing up with the dually part, being young still and we've only had him 5 months and he'd never had any training before his initial reaction to reversing was to turn his head to look back, this made it possible to bite also. with having the hand and arm positioned gently to align his head with his body helped ease that, the other was my eyes, I had to work out where my eyes were looking. They were looking at the daully which would create confusion for him, so taking my eyes just over his rear has also helped. He can see where I am looking, similar to when looking to align up for a jump so he can judge where I want him to go.
I've been doing this for a while with him, which proved really well this week. The fields have been lightly plowed that we walk through so the ground has a different feel to it, as soon as BamBam stepped onto the field he began to panic as his feet slighly sank, but he listened to woah,and stand, so he could see he wasnt really in damger, then without using the daully And only using my eyes and voice, I looked to his rear and gently said back, each step he took i asked again until he'd reversed back on to firmer ground. It was only 4 steps back, but he responded without force and with complete trust that what I was asking him to do would be of benefit.
Just reading through the other posts and didn'ts see anything about where the eye are looking so though it might help :D
Mel x
So pleased to hear that Bambam is listening and responding, Mel. It took Tricka quite awhile but she is generally good now. Still need the dually!
It seems to be a reflex to bite when a hand moves towards their chest. I've seen any number of horses - including my own - do it, and this thread just confirms it further.
Obviously, you can train them away from the behavior, but I wonder where it originates from.
Thanks Maggie :D
Kicki, it's most probably what they do to each other when in the field, if another horse is going into his space a little nip tells the other horse to move away, they just need to learn that doing it to humans is not acceptable. The Dauly should help, remeber it's the hands that hold!
Super point Mel!
Of course it is so! Thanks, Mel! :)