Without being able to watch you while driving him, I can only pick a couple of possible reasons off the top of my head and you can see if they fit.
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How are you positioned? If you stand in front of his driving line (usually around the horse's mid-section) you will be telling him to do just what he is doing.
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How much contact do you have with the outer rein? If he starts to turn you need to be able to guide him back.
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Where is your helper positioned when he/she leads? Best is on the outer side so better to unclip the line without the horse noticing and easier to correct him if he tries to turn.
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How experienced are you and your horse with long line driving?
If you happen to be new at this, I warmly suggests taking lessons with a good trainer and a well trained horse to teach you how.
If your horse is new to this, it might be that he is utterly confused but his docile nature prevents him from getting nervous about it, so he does what he thinks is the best choice. If he has had a lot of driving before (but not by you) maybe see if you can ask the ones who did it how they handled him.
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Since you talk about lounging and having one line across his back, I deduce you want to work him on a circle. How does he handle it if you start by walking in straight lines and staying behind him?
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I respect your wish not to use a whip, but I'm not sure it is good to base that decision on his sweet nature. (If you said you were afraid that you might get so frustrated that you would risk hitting him with it, I would understand better.);)
What (I think) you need here is a way to clarify what you want. Since you are at a distance from your horse and not in direct contact, a driving-whip is actually perfect for showing the horse the right way. There is absolutely no need to use it on his body! You can simply point it in the direction you want him to go, or tap the ground with it.
Think of it as an extension of your arm! ;)
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Read your side note again and have to laugh as my boy does the very same. (He's not quite as sweet natured as yours, though.) Many a time when I have waved about with absolutely no reaction from him, I have wondered if he has desensitized himself to this, or if he dislikes it so intensely that he decides to simply "shut down" until it stops? I really don't know how to get out of that one!
If only they could speak!

Hi Jbuzz1, something you might like to add in with Kiki's advise is to show your horse with pointing your arm in the direction you want him to so and nod your head upwards in that direction too. In Equus nodding the head upwards is a request to move. Just 2 nods up will give a request to your horse to move forwards in the direction you nod your head. I don't use the lunge whip and getting 2 of mine to lunge has been a very slow process, but they got it in the end when accompanied with the Equus language.
Your horse turning to you is him asking what do you want of me, so he's not understanding your request.
Mel
x

Hi Kicki & Mel :)
Thanks for your helpful comments.
Kicki, my helper was on the inside, not the outside of him.....will try again today. I did try to have the line behind him and walk him in a straight line, but with no cue to go forward, he kept trying to spin back to me. You were absolutely right about me not wanting to use a lunge whip due to his nature....maybe I'm just being to soft with him :)
Mel, thanks for your input and teaching me something new, I'll certainly give that a try :)
I feel like I have some options going forward now (excuse the pun!)
Thank you both x
P.S I notice Kicki is from Sweden, and Mel from the UK......well, G'Day from Australia! Great to hear from our international community! :)

Hi :-)

Have a look at this thread, this will give you some useful info too about long lining. (I confess it's also me being lazy and not repeating what I've written there! :-) )
:

http://www.montyrobertsuniversity.com/forum/post/ha-ha-lunging-with-two-lines-i-have-a-lot-to-learn

Forgot to say, you are not being "too soft" with him - his good nature is priceless, it is a communication issue that once resolved I'm sure will lead to him being as willing as ever. He sounds and looks lovely!

Thanks Vicci, he is definitely one of a kind!! We fitted him with a new saddle and bridle for our daughters riding lesson tomorrow. After tightening the girth, I went to give him the bit when realising he had gone to sleep!
He woke up, took the bit, and rested his head on my shoulder :)

Hello jbuzz; Am I understanding this correctly? That you are planning to put your daughter on this horse`s back before he is going freely forward in the long reins? I really don`t want to come out of left field with this reply to your call for help, but I believe that you might be headed toward a dangerous, slippery-slope with your plan. I would URGE YOU to rethink this whole scenario.
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.Going forward for horses under training is probably THE MOST IMPORTANT element of their training besides the connection with the trainer. If there is some confusion with the horse responding to walk-out, what is going to happen with him when a rider is on his back? Horses learn in short bursts and need LEARNED, incremental steps as a springboard to the next step. When, we as directors, place too many requests on our horses while they are still learning and somewhat vague to what we are asking of them, we run the risk of flooding emotionally. THIS IS NOT A GOOD PLACE TO BE. Horses with young riders need to be solid for the safety of both.
.
. If I have missed something in my understanding of your situation the.., I sincerely apologize, but if I can prevent a potential wreck from happening with these few words then . . . .
.
.Bud USA

Hi everyone.
In relation to this thread, I have a couple of questions:-
Mel. Does the nodding of the head also work under saddle?
I remember that your good tip worked like a charm on Shilo when we were learning sweet spot.

Bud. I have been longing Shilo on one line as you suggested and he walks forward as he should.
If he can do this on one line , do you think that it is sufficient enough to mount my horse and start his basic riding? I have mounted and ridden him a couple of times last year before my surgery,
I do want to follow this program as much to the letter as possible, and I'm not trying to cheat or be impatient, however, as Shilo has been mounted and ridden previously do you think it's dangerous to ride him without longing first on two lines?
I hope it's ok that I use this thread for my own questions.
Thanks

Dionne- Denmark.

Hi Dionne,
.
Horses use their heads in all of their communication of Equus, they tell each other to go away, come here, yes, no the direction they are going to travel and much much more. We can use this to communicate to them too our intention.
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In using the move forwards head movement nodding up twice whilst you are facing the same direction of your horse they will move with you. When in the saddle they are focused on your head more if you've been using it in communication on the ground. Not only that when in the saddle your horse will feel your body movements too as you move your head, so if you jerk your head upwards twice, see how this affects your body, all the way through to your legs. This along with other aids helps the communication between you and your horse.
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Like jumping a course of jumps in the arena, as you come over the jump you look to the next jump so your horse knows where to go, the horse is watching your head all the time. You'll notice in shows the rider who uses their head, the horse completes the round well, the one who does not they horse gets yanked around and doesn't know where to go.
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Everyone who comes to me for lessons has to first communicate on the ground before they can get on their backs, even if they're ridden before. They have to move the horse forwards, backwards, turn them left and right all with head movements, minimal worf cues and zero pressure on the dually.
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The horse show's its direction by it's head, when you see your horse walking to you in the field if their head is straight to you, they'll come to you. If their body is straight towards you, but their head turned to one side they'll turn away from you.
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The question I ask is Shilo ready to carry you on his back. A good way to ask this, is to take him to the mounting block, stand on it and lean over his back gently at first, then full weight. If he stands still and looks round at your head, he's saying ok. If he shakes his head he's saying no. If the latter, stand back, get off the mounting block, walk him around again and ask again. It maybe that he's not understanding what you want to do. If he says ok, then slide on keeping your head low, but remain balanced. Breath and when you breath out let your whole body sink into him and create a connection! If he's happy, you'll be able to sit up and adjust your position. then breath again, then get off. repeat 3 more times then end the lesson. then incremental steps work onto the next bit along in Monty's lessons to improve your riding skills. :D
.
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jbuzz1, Hiya back from the UK ;) What's your name so we can call you by it than jbuzz1??
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I've had many times say I'm too soft with my horses and the horses I train, but what they're not seeing is the communication in Equus. Equus is speech in the horses language and horses are gentle creatures, for those who've been caused to be aggressive they can change back again and becomes gentle because we've learnt how to communicate their way. With Using Monty's methods that he learnt from the horse, we choose to communicate with the horse and this method is non violent, firm as you would be with your children so they know who is taking the lead and for this they respect you. Once your horse respects you they do amazing things for you and any obstacle can be overcome.
Mel
x

Sorry on the spelling! :/

Hey Mel, my name is Jamie. Should have put that in at the start :D
Bud, I appreciate you concern, and this is something I should have said from the beginning. This horse is a gentleman under saddle, and is performing excellently as a beginners horse. I am just trying to change his training methods from that of his previous owner. Luckily, we acquired this horse before any damage could be done.
Cheers,

Jamie

Hello jbuzz; Am I understanding this correctly? That you are planning to put your daughter on this horse`s back before he is going freely forward in the long reins? I really don`t want to come out of left field with this reply to your call for help, but I believe that you might be headed toward a dangerous, slippery-slope with your plan. I would URGE YOU to rethink this whole scenario.
.
.Going forward for horses under training is probably THE MOST IMPORTANT element of their training besides the connection with the trainer. If there is some confusion with the horse responding to walk-out, what is going to happen with him when a rider is on his back? Horses learn in short bursts and need LEARNED, incremental steps as a springboard to the next step. When, we as directors, place too many requests on our horses while they are still learning and somewhat vague to what we are asking of them, we run the risk of flooding emotionally. THIS IS NOT A GOOD PLACE TO BE. Horses with young riders need to be solid for the safety of both.
.
. If I have missed something in my understanding of your situation the.., I sincerely apologize, but if I can prevent a potential wreck from happening with these few words then . . . .
.
.Bud USA

SORRY FOR THE ABOVE REPLY SHOWING UP AGAIN. I PUSHED THE WRONG KEY!!!!!!!!

Hello Dionne; Mel`s advice is so well thought out. I don`t think that I could add much to what she writes about other than your completion of the long lining with two reins. If you can stand off to the side and somewhat behind while leading Shilo with one long rein, then I would try both reins simultaneously. It might take a few tries for him to get comfortable with the off side touching his right leg, but if you can keep him moving forward, a couple of laps should do the trick for you. This would provide you with accomplishment of what you started to do plus giving Shilo a building block of being led on both sides from behind.
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.One thing that I might suggest as a precursor to the two lines would be for you to clip one of the long lines on to the off side, and place it over his butt while he is standing still. Then, with you standing on the left side, gently shake the line draped over his butt so that it falls behind Shilo, half way between the ground and the top of his butt. Then you gently draw the line up toward yourself on the left side while asking Shilo to follow the feel of the line as he does an ABOUT face and joins you. I have always found that this small maneuver pays huge dividends in a horse`s learning to trust the feel as he follow of the request. I hope this can help.
.
Bud

Hi everyone! Just thought I'd give a quick update on Rocky's progress.
Well, today he finally got it!!
I just wanted to thank everyone for their advice, I called today, Day 1 :)

Looking forward to tomorrow....

Cheers,

Jamie

It's great to see everyone successful following the advice from fellow members here :)
well done jbuzz

That is so great, Jamie!!! So happy for the both of you.

The smell of victory is so-oo sweet. Life seems to get better. CONGRATULATIONS Jaime on your progress with this horse. Please keep us in the loop as this horse goes down the trail in his learning. Thanks Bud

Brilliant Jamie, very pleased for you and the lovely Rocky :-)

Thank you Mel and Bud.
Mel:- I too have been 'accused' of being to soft With Shilo, but I Can tell you this Much:-, I am a novice horse owner and trainer, Shilo is a pony who When I bought him knew nothing , so we are starting With two blank canvases.
If we take away the amount of time I have spent being operated and recovery time, then I would estimate that i have trained seriously With Shilo for 4 months out of the 12 months I have owned him.
The first couple of weeks I owned Shilo I was using a different training form, - Clinton Anderson.
But what I noticed with using his method was that Shilo would run away from me before and after training, he was frightened of me. So, I dropped that method and started experimenting my self. I am a very gentle person, I don't like seeing horse trainers being 'hard' on the horses, and I am against bits, Spurs and whips., So I guess I made my own communication with Shilo, and the more soft and quiet I was, the more gentle and calm I was, the more Shilo reacted.Within 3 weeks of this experiment I was able to lead Shilo, introduced saddle and bridle to him, I could back him by voice command and I was able to mount him and take a few steps. ( and then I got sick and was crippled in my bed for months)
I spent recovery time by researching all I could about horse training, and stumbled across a lady called Missy Wrynn on YouTube.
When I was able to walk again, I started training again with Shilo, using Missy Wrynns method, and the change in Shilo was unbelievable, so all of the ground work I did with Shilo was with her method and Shilo blossomed. Missy Wrynn is a very gentle trainer who prides herself on NO PAIN training, and she communicates with her horses much like Monty Roberts.
However, I heard in the meantime about Equis, and Monty Roberts through my daughter who has his book Shyboy. And that's how I came to be in this university.
I find it very easy to follow Montys method, I like his way with horses, I like that he has a deep respect for horses and I felt that this was the way to go.
So, Mel, even though I am the least experienced horse trainer on the face of the earth, I have found out that being gentle and soft and kind to the horse results in a horse that wants to be with you, and wants to participate, the other way results in a horse that is afraid and forced into his training, and punished for not performing.
I don't want to be a part of that world, Shilo is my best friend and I don't treat my friends badly.

Dionne.

Hello Dionne. Thank you so much for your authenticity about your previous horse experience. I want to say how very rare that type of honesty is in the horseworld and also how very far ahead of the learning curve that you place yourself when you paint your world with authentic strokes. Horses demand authenticity from us in order for them to open their channels of learning about what we are asking of them at the time. I am talking specifically of TRUST here. This is the doorway to trust and you have found it GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!
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.Mel covers some training insights that you won`t hear very often, but they are HUGE in helping the horse to be connected with your thoughts while on his back. Climbing on his back is a different feeling for a horse, but when you combine that with instinctual directions that he is comfortable with, [head movements] it eases the reach of his thoughts that he must ask himself about when taking the next step. You are on the doorstep to connective riding. If we can start a horse with these small, but important steps, the results could be beyond words.
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.The recovery time that you spent before going back to
Shilo to continue his training seems to be time well spent.
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.Be safe... Respectfully Bud

Thank you Bud, that really means a lot to me. The 'hands on advice and tips ' I got from Mel with the head nods and leaning forward etc have worked like magic, and your insightful words give me the support I need to just carry on being myself, because I can see myself that just being me is good enough for Shilo, we have come a long way with regards to mutual trust.
Yesterday I did as Mel suggested, and Shilo accepted me on his back, I did it 3 times just like Mel said and finished right there, I could see Shilos ears turned towards me when I was mounted ,like he was listening for the next move.
Today I will do the same, but this time I will ask Shilo to walk a few steps forward, and then ask him to stop, I will then dismount and of course all the time tell him that he's a good boy, if it works I will mount again, do the same and then stop the 'lesson'. I have to do it this way as it's the only way to tell if I have control- especially with the stop, this is what worries me most- that I can't stop him.....
Dionne.

Hi Dionne and thank you for the kind response above.
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.When we climb on a horse`s back, the connection that we have with them is that we can be a leader for them while on their back like we have been for them on the ground. All of these steps that you and Shilo have been going thru up to this time should pave the way [open the doorway] for the next step in his training. I sense some trepidation with this next step on your part with the connection of Shilo and riding. I must say that what you are concerned about is 100% natural. Allow me, if you will, to suggest some things that you might try that could help you overcome the worry about getting him stopped after getting him to walk out.
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.#1 set-up the forward movement so he is headed toward a barrier [ side of a building, fence, railing], then sit back in the saddle as he prepares to stop without touching the reins. This produces synchronicity between you and Shilo. It also produces a decision within Shilo that he just took the lead in bringing about the whoa and that was in concert with you as a rider because you sat back in the saddle and stopped riding. [you both shared an action] Once you have experienced this maneuver, your confidence will take a quantum leap. What will really help you is to breathe deeply and you will feel him match your breathing. This will help big time to settle the demons. Demons have difficulty in calm waters.
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.#2 On the first week of riding, I try to never touch the reins unless something comes unwound with the connection between the horse and I. I always have a safety strap around the pommel to hang on to. A neck strap could be used also. My thinking here is that the horse has new weight on his back to balance along with his motion and his attention should remain on just that. You as a rider, will concentrate on asking for forward motion and he as the horse will bring himself to a stop when you quit riding. You both share in the experience, If you can accomplish those two things in the first week, you open the doorway to a connected riding, partnership.
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.Visualize all of this and what Mel speaks of before you physically put this into action and by all means continue to SING to that boy.
.
.Respectfully Bud

Hi Dionne, I always sing to my horses :D
,
Adding onto what Bud has said, I teach students to use their legs to request a stop. slightly moving your legs forwards onto the shoulder the horse will stop, it pushes your body deeper into the saddle and back into the cantle. so breathing out as Bud said and both feet stretching forwards onto the shoulder and the practice towards a barrier until you're sure he's listening to your legs.
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You're doing brilliantly!! Keep on with the lessons and everything will fall into place ;)
.
Mel
x