Hi Gayle
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For fear of sounding completely stupid asking you this, is he trying to scratch an itch? Where I live, we have had lots of rain and as a result we have lots of buffalo flies around. They upset the horses and they back up to trees and things like that to scratch and sometimes rub themselves raw. I now feed them garlic and sulphur supliments to repel the flies which has fixed that.
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The other thing I thought of is that possibly this is a stress related or nervous behavour arising from being in a new place? Animals and humans alike do some funny things when they are nervous, stressed or even bored.
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If its a nervous behaviour, perhaps the Distractability theory can be applied. For example, when he goes to bash the hocks do something to distract him. What ever you do to distract him, it has to be the same thing each time for the theory to be applied correctly. For example, when the horse turns to bite you, bump his shin with your boot. Eventually he will look at his shin when he thinks of biting. I think that example was given in the book "From My Hands to Yours".
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There is information about Distractability in "From My Hands to Yours" and also there is a bit about it in the video lessons about the head shy horse I think?? And Georgia's Phobias perhaps??
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Its an interesting behaviour. I hope someone else has something to add :-)
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Kind regards,
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Gen

Those two alternatives popped up in my mind as well.
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I'm pretty sure he does it to relieve stress, whether it's mental or physical, by getting some kind of "reward".
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To use Ockham's razor (of two competing theories, the simplest explanation of an entity is to be preferred)I would go with the itching first and check if fly repellents and anti-itching cremes helps. (Maybe have a vet check.)

If it comes from mental stress, you need to find the cause.
Maybe he feels alone, or don't have enough to do, like exercise or eating.

Thank you both for your replies. I have checked that he doesn't have a skin condition or anything that would be making him itch, we don't have many flies here yet (I live in england), so I think it must be psychological, I have been trying to give him more exercise but due to the problems I am having long lining him etc it is difficult, before I got him he'd done nothing for two years. I have also got "From my hands to yours" so I will have a look in it thank you.

Also yesterday and today I have started having problems with him with his headcollar, which I've never had before he's usually fine with it. But if I go into his stable with the headcollar he will turn away from me and turn his bum on me, if I move towards his head he spins around and comes straight at me with his back legs and tries to pin me at the back with him between me and the door. I have managed to get it on him by using carrot to coax him to the front of the stable (so I remained by the door and couldn't get trapped) but this took about twenty minutes. I turned him out with his headcollar on today and when I went to catch him as soon as I went through the gate he walked a few paces away and turned him bum on me, threatening to kick. I again had to use food (which I don't like doing but it is my only resort at the moment), and whenever I went to attach the lead rope or just hold his headcollar he would throw his head up and twist away from me and threaten to rear, (I can't keep hold of it when he does this as he is over 16hh and I'm only 5ft2), eventually I managed to get him interested in the food so I could clip the rope on whilst he had his head in the bucket. I just don't understand why he has suddenly started doing this, he doesn't look or act scared, it's as if he is doing it deliberately to be defiant, and I'm completely stumped by him, because he was so good when I first got him.

Gayle

Hi Gayle
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Mmmmmm it does sound psychological... Have you done join up with him?
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My Quarter Horse mare wasn't fussed on me or people for that matter when I first got her. And I found that join up was very important with establishing an element of trust and respect between us. The first time I joined up with her wasn't too flash, but it still helped.
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One thing that I really don't like is horses turning their bums on me. It scares me and I think its disrepectful. What I have done with my horses to overcome this is as follows:
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1. Do join-up. This is essential. You cannot move onto anything else with any great success without join-up.
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2. Do pleanty of ground work exercises with the horse. I would drop the long lining for now and go right back to basics. Do the whole process of working with scary objects and work up to using the Dually Halter and practice leading with the horse at your shoulder and backing up etc. I more or less followed the sequence of videos on the Uni with my horses. Ground work is good for both of you as you get to hang out and have fun while learing and establishing boundaries.
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3. To start to teach your horse not to put his bum to you, I use a dressage whip as an extension of my arm and I rub the horse with it so that he/she knows its not going to be used for hurting. I then tap the point of the hip 3 times with the dressage whip and then gently pull the horse's head towards me so that he/she is facing me. I then rub him on the forehead and we rest a bit as a reward. Do that on both sides frequently. Eventually you will get to the stage where you can point with your finger to the horse's hip and he will turn to face you.
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The Head Shy Horse is dealt with on page 160 of "From My Hands to Yours" and the Rearer is dealt with on page 166.
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It may also be useful to get help from a professional trainer. The most important thing is for you to remain safe.
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Keep your chin up though, in time you will have a great relationship with this horse. It can only improve from here :-)
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Kind regards,
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Gen

Thank you for your reply Gen. Yes I have done join up with him, and used the Dually with him on ground manners. But I will continue it further. Thats a good idea about the dressage whip, I will try that thank you.

Thats the odd thing, he isn't head shy, he loves having his head touched and will go to sleep when I stroke his ears and puts his head to the ground when brushing his forelock etc, I've checked his head to see that its not sore anywhere that the headcollar would touch. Some people have suggested to me that he is 'trying it on' and just trying to be dominant, however some of their training methods I am very unwilling to try, (one of my friends suggested whacking him with a shavings fork when he turned his bum on me!)

Yes I am trying to seek the advice of a professional trainer, however I am struggling with this as I live on the Isle of Wight in England, and we only have a few professionals on the island, all of which are very busy and so getting their help and time is difficult.

Thank you very much for your help and advice it is really appreciated :).

Gayle

Dear Gayle, I think Gen has given some real good advice. I have a two year old Irish Sport Horse. One of the reasons I decided to buy that breed is their gentle and relaxed character. I aggree with Gen that his behavior is psycological. We have learned from studying Monty's Method that horses have a very good long term memory. So no matter how long you have had him before, it is possible that some little things that happend all together braught bad memories that he has to react to. You entering the paddock with the head collar in your hand watching him... whatever... Maybe he remembers that scene going on like he has been hit in the next second ? I would try to find out when, in which situation his memory causes him to thinking having to defend himself. Just change the usual way you approach him, surprise him with a total new behavior and see what happens. But be safe ! I would for example come in with the halter, and as soon as he just watches without turning is behind towards you, turn around and leave him. Show him that you are not a pretador. Just an idea... Be brave not to do anything you are not convinced of no matter what people say or think. :-) Good luck and let us know how things are going. I have had hard days with my little guy too... and got over it. VioBerlin

Hi Gayle, first of all I would say, I don't believe he is being bad and deliberately defiant. Monty says horses are reactionary, they do things as a result of something happening to them. Perhaps each time you come to the stable with the head collar, it results in something he does not look forward to, i.e. something in the sand school, or terrifying long lines- something you say frightens him, so not the actual headcollar but what happens afterwards. Why are you having trouble exercising him-it sounds like he is confined to the stable for long periods? Does he get time out with other friendly horses?
HBefore he met you he came from a field where he did nothing for two years (his idea of heaven) to your stable where the only time he gets out of the confines of the stable, he is frightened-I think he threatens you because he doesn't want to come out of the stable because he would rather stay confined in there where he is usually left alone!
I think you need to begin to look at his world from his perspective for a long while, find ways for him to enjoy his times when he comes out before you try any more re-breaking - then use only Monty's methods to begin to be his friend, not his boss who makes him do things he doesn't want to or frightens him.
About the banging his hocks, my gelding has done this since I bought him sixteen years ago. He progresses then to biting his sides, looking like he has colic. It goes no further than that, then after a few minutes, he reverts to normal behaviour. I realised he does this when he is stressed.
I hope you can begin to make some progress and reverse your downward spiral with your horse. You must want to help him or you wouldn't have asked for help, you have taken the first step. Study Monty's methods and try to emulate him, think about how he would manage this problem, use the Q & A section and you may get Monty's personal answer! Good luck.

Christine has really put the problem into perspective. If I were a horse and had to spend my time in a stable most of the day I would get a little irritated as well. The one thing that I would say is don't try to be a friend but a leader to your horse. It is important to be the leader and not an equal to your horse. Also if you can put your horse in a stable with a paddock so he can move about freely that may help in getting him squared away and being a good horse for you

Cheers