Hi paddyluv 123!
Using the Dually and the language Equus, we build up trust and respect of personal space.
With a whip we'd build up fear and loose the trust of the horse.
Show your friends how little it needs to build respect and trust and make them see the difference in your horse's expression when he chooses to be with you, instead of trying to be away from you.

oh ok thanks.
Many of my friends use whips to train there horses and things they dont understand what i mean and things.

Using a whip as a signal for example in dressage doesn't have to be violent, but most people who talk about "discipline" like you mentioned, use a whip to hurt the horse with.
Maybe you could ask your friends how they would feel if someone tried to "teach" them a lesson using pain and fear as an argument. Most people understand how counter-productive that would be. Using force when dealing with a flightanimal gives the opposit reaction of what you would want, you want their cooperation and trust. Try reading "Monty's From my Hands to Yours" and you'll find all the arguments you're looking for and even more!

I think sometimes it is really difficult to see the difference. If somebody uses the murmur and the fast movement of the whip to stimulate the horse I can't see any difference to a plastic bag. The fast movements in the "Equus language" are more natural but also here basically the effect is the same. Maybe we could find a common basis of non-violence with lots of people without trying to convince them of Monty's method. Pressure will cause pressure also in humans.

A whip can be used as a tool of communication with the horse, if done properly. It's like Monty says--the key is in the hands that use it. It is whether pain or force is used that is the crux of the matter. I have seen good riders ride with a crop or dressage whip and they use it as a good western rider might use spurs--as an extension of an appendage. The key is whether the trainer can communicate without getting the horse's adrenaline up, and the most common way adrenaline gets driven up is by force or pain. Knowing the language Equus and knowing how to use the Dually are tools a trainer can use to get the communication across while keeping the adrenaline low.

When you speak to others about Monty's methods, the key to getting agreement is to not make that other person wrong about what he is doing--that just gets the person defensive and then he will tune out, as Rudi so aptly pointed out. Find something that person does in his training that you can agree with, and make him right for that. That will get him in communication with you. Then, you can enlighten that person that another way is possible, and that it has proven to be effective for others, and most importantly that it has worked for you. That should get him thinking, if he's worth his salt at all. If he justs blows you off, then you know that he is not open to learning. The first barrier to learning is thinking that you know it all already.

Good luck!

I use a whip as an extension of my arm, just as Monty uses a rope or long-line. I have more control with a whip. I am not adept at using the long line and tossing it out. I don't hit with the whip, but just stick it out toward my horse to get her to move forward or change direction. I can't see a difference in using that in a non-violent way and using a long-line. As long as there is no hitting involved.

Thanks, yeh i use a whip as a extentio i dont hit the horse but the thing is he bucks so its more dificuult. i have tried without and its alot harder unless hes jumping then thats fine without.
Thanks again my friends some of them do listen and i have helped them with there horsey problems i told them to also look up the launguage equis and said that it might help them a bit with there problems.

If you want to get someone on side or open them gently up to something, try the sandwich method: open up with a compliment/positive, insert a negative or criticism, then close with a compliment/pos. ;)

There are some people out in this world that are just out to argue, and no matter what you tell them they will never stop. The point I always make before walking away and ending the conversation is, "When you want to learn something, do you learn better with someone yelling at you in a foreign language and trying to beat the knowledge into you? Or do you learn better when someone sits down and calmly explains things to you in your own language?" Let them think on that one. :)

If we criticize someone, we should be able to do it better. So the only way could be to demonstrate a different way. But this means that we should be really firm in want we are doing, not only have red books about it or done some online course.
Usually all of us react defensive to criticism. That is normal. I include myself. But not always who criticizes is automatically right. We should first question ourselves. There were many time I have tried to open a discussion about the method of Monty Roberts, because I don't share some aspects, such as the dually halter (it might be good for some horses, for others not). But it always was difficult to get a response without containing a defense. So if we criticize somebody putting ourselves on a higher level, we always assume an attitude of superiority or even arrogance. For me the only way to create a constructive discussion and exchange of opinions, is to be on the same level as the addressee. I know it is not easy.
My membership in this forum will expire in march and I don't think I will renew it. But I just want to say something, we should be careful adopting methods and declaring their founders to gurus. There are many valid ways and many people with a lot of knowledge we can learn from. But we never should forget the common sense, try really hard to understand first, before we follow someone else.

“When you want to learn something,...” - That requires, that the addressee of our criticism WANTS to learn from us, not us wanting to teach him.

“... yelling at you in a foreign...explains things to you in your OWN language?”- Isn't also the dually, the bug stopper, the pacifier, the giddy up rope, the closed round pen where there is no way to avoid pressure etc. a foreign language for the horses. What is really their OWN language ?

I don't have the slightest intention to justify whips and co., I never use punishment on the horse, not even force them.
If somebody feels offended by my posts, that's ok.
Have nice day
Cristina

I started a Dvd potluck club.WE meet once a month and watch a training dvd,share supper and then watch a riding video.We watch a variety of trainers and methods.This enables us to see similarities and differences but most importantly it stimulates discussion and thought so we can each find the most suitable course individually ,based on our own personality and our horses personality.It encourages us to think for ourselves,listen to others reasoning and proceed knowing why we have adopted certain techniques,instead of following blindly.It also helps us become more observant and think about when to adapt or change techniques based on the responses we see in our horses and the circumstances.We are all really enjoying getting together this way.Gives us a great sense of community.Also have noticed that all great trainers have certain attributes in common, like patience,understanding of the essential nature of the horse,a calm manner,incremental learning and a non pressure attitude.And they seem to really like horses.Believe it or not there. are people out there working with horses that appear not to like or appreciate theses wonderful animals. Go figure.Sure don't want to emulate them.

I think that whenever you come across something new in this world - be it a headline in the news, a political or religious statement, or a philosophy on how to do something - it is always important to question it before accepting it as "the Truth".
Don't just read the headline and stop there, don't just accept what you are told at face value. So many things are misinterpreted because people just read the headline and said "OK!". Always read the full article and ask - you don't have to criticize, but be curious and inquisitive<; and don't accept the answer until you're satisfied and understand.

Cristina
I also think that the way we name things predisposes the users intention. For example whips are called whips because that is what they were made for. If you rename that object flexpole with thin rope attached, it is the same object but it doesn't feel the user anything. The same goes for the term breaking a horse. Who wants a horse whose spirt and physical being is broken. Do you take something that you value and through it to the ground to make it a better object? Language is very powerful and can inform, celebrate, injure, encourage etc. When you write to either ask a question or to give an answer take the time to read over your post and see how neutral it really is. Christina's point about all the pieces of equipment being a foreign language to a horse is right on. They are just tools to perform a task in a seemingly better way. Of all the post that I have read, I personally have not seen anything that I would call offensive. Some could be expressed better, but if you are posting to this forum I assume you want to not only learn but to also share your experience with your horse. I look at each post as a person who knows everything about their horse but just can seem to find the right way to solve a problem and is asking for advice. In doing so they are making themselves vulnerable to criticism that can be hurtful. It is all our jobs to give the clearest answer that we can. We are not here to convince people that our idea is the correct one, only to share our own experience and knowledge.
There is an old saying that there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers. As far as I am concerned I have been able to learn something from every post I have read and I thank everyone that has taken the time to post their opinions.

Cheers

Hi Cristina - I think Dennis has made some good points here for us ALL to follow. Your input to Forum is valuable. Sometimes you do challenge our way of thinking and that is good. Sometimes we also respond too quickly without due thougtfulness and that is why Dennis points are so good. Do stay a member as we would miss you input and comments. It is important for us all to have open minds and think critically as these are essential ingredients to our learning process. I love your idea Cheryl as there are so many excellent horse people out there and we can learn something from them all. Back to the original post. I am in agreement with all those who have spoken out in favour of the use of aids such as crops and dressage whips providing that use is not harsh or used in anger. When used correctly and kindly they are simply an additional aid in our riding which helps our horses to listen to us and respond appropriately. Having said this I do not use a crop or dressage whip as both the horses I ride are very responsive to my body aids. Nicky - previously a western ridden horse - is totally responsive to the leg and only needs the gentlest contact. She almost jumps out of her skin if I use too much leg as my instructors have occasianally suggested. I have only recently started her on dressage again and she is slowly getting more used to my lower leg gently touching her. Tricka is responsive to my body aids but does occasionally get a bit lazy so maybe down the track she may need a gentle tap with a crop or dressage whip. I just hate to carry whips as they interfere with my riding and I have never used spurs but appreciate that some horses do need them to maximise their potential performance. When watching a friend prepare for a dressage test the other day I actually suggested that he try his spurs. In order to get his horse to respond he was really having to boot it which looked very unsightly for dressage. Naturally I hoped he may have rubber tipped spurs but he just had the typical metal nob but said he would use them ever so gently. He only needed to touch his horse a couple of times and after that his horse responded beautifully. He went on to win first prize in his dressage competition the next day. Soo... I have only used a dually halter for 12 months but I am now a strong advocate of it for training youngsters and for discipline of horses that have become too bossy or are unresponsive to other halters. I find its greatest strengths are in teaching horses ground manners, teaching them to stand still for saddling, hoof trimming etc. and for putting reluctant horses onto floats/trailers. I do not use mine all the time and only occasionally now on Tricka. My other horses all have good manners and do not need disciplining therefore do not require the dually halter which is a little cumbersome to put on and heavy compared to the typical rope halter. So if you have a well trained, well mannered horse there is probably little need to own a dually halter.

Hi, thanks for your answers,
I just want to say, that I appreciated to change opinion in this forum, but I would have liked to get some answers to a few questions I made also in „Q&A“, but I never received one. I know that I am provocative many times, because I call into question the method. I don't do this because I want to prove it is wrong, but I really try to understand. There are instructors of Monty's method in the forum, but they don't take their time or interest to explain. The only answer one gets is, read this or that book, watch this video...But this is not enough for me. I get the idea, this is all about selling products. If we are really interested in creating “a better world for the horses” (and I take this really literally, this is for me the main point, not a competition to win, not my personal glory, not a show, not money to gain ), there should be answers from professionals without having a profit from it. The profit should be for the horse. There are many blogs, websites,forums and videos full of value information, without paying for them. So I find the money paid for the online university not worse it. For me this is a lot of money and this is also a reason why I don't subscribe again.

Have a nice day
Cristina

Hi Cristina,
Being an advanced student of Monty's I really want to acknowledge what you state above. There have been times, when I sent in videos or wanted answers, and there came non or not the ones I had been looking for. Having said this, I need to state now, that it turns out to be the right method for me. It is easy to ask questions and demanding of others to answer them, it's much more difficult to have these questions, put them to words and then find your own answers, often in discussion with others. It does feel lonely now and then, but in the end it's your own ( my own....) achievement that brings you further.
What we could do is ask the helpdesk (Debbie Loucks, Monty's daughter) to ask the interns (those who are working on becoming instructors) to sit with our questions and answer what they think need response. Most of our questions here on the forum solve themselves...
I think there are some very adequate members of this forum, who do their best to share their knowledge and understanding to others. This trains their skills too.
Having seen the videos you put on youtube, I am very impressed by your level of horsewomanship, we would miss you dearly, maybe "because" you provoke and want to know exactly!
Kind regards,
Miriam

As I mentioned before I find it important to find a common sense. Methods are different, the effect of tools depend on the hands using them. Our intention is to communicate with the horses by studying there reactions and to train them without creating physical pain. We have to accept Cristinas opinion about the Dually (my daughter agrees, she does not let me to put it on her horse). The discussion is important and may modify our techniques, at least we are thinking about it without just accepting what has been said to us.
Rudi

This is all very interesting, but I think you can use a whip while actually having fun with your horse. I use Month's methods and a little of Pat Parelli's methods. He uses a "carrot stick" to play games with his horses. This just shows that if you never abuse your horses with a whip, they can be fun. The only problem is my trainer hit my horse with a whip to get him on a trailer so now hes terrified of them. Any ideas to desensitise Hilton them?

Madison
Use some thing that doesn't look like a whip A lead line will work but don't use the buckle end. I assume us are using the whip to direct his hind end and to encourage him to do something that he may be afraid of but will not hurt him. You can use a piece of plastic pipe with a bag or a rag tied to the end as well. I would also talk to your trainer that you do not want your horse whipped no matter what. If the horse doesn't load into the trailer, who's fault is that? Not the horses. S horse will not put himself into a dangerous spot intentionally so you and your trainer need to convince the horse that the trailer is a fun place to be, not a place where he is going to get whipped.
Cheers

You now have the big job of proving to your horse that whips are OK. Very slowly introduce him to a whip using Monty's incremental learning approach. Remember to take it away as soon as he stands still or seems to accept it then bring it back again slowly with a little more progress each time until you can lightly touch him all over with it. Lots of pats and praise when he is good and no harshness when he backs away just steady consistnency letting him no its OK. You may have read about my Trickas bad experience with a pool noodle in another thread. It wasn't too long until she accepted the noodle but she hadn't been hurt by it as with the whip. Unfortunately horses react quickly to bad treatment and it takes ages to get them to trust you again. Try the dually for trailer loading - I find it is great for that.

MaggieF
Good suggestion. I still would like to see people not use the term whips unless that is what you are going to use it for (boo) I don't mind the physical object so much as what the name implies. It is even better if it doesn't even look like a whip. Maybe they should be a bright color and have tiny bells attached to them. Then they would not physically represent a whip. There is a reason whips are black and not pink or striped.

If a horse has been whipped into submission as it sounds like this horse was to get it to load into a trailer, in my mnd that horse will never trust anyone with a whip in their hands. They will always be leery of your intentions because they were hurt. Horse remember things that hurt them and stay away from them instinctively.

If you want to be able to signal a horse to do something, then a whip is not the correct tool to use to start with. You can accomplish the task by using any object like a stick with a flag tied to the end they will also respond just to your body position as well. Think about when you work your horse in the around pen (another misused tool) and you want the horse to change direction or slow down, you move your body toward the head of the horse and he will either slow down or change direction. No whip involved.

Cheers

I used a whip once, but ONLY for communication purposes. I do dressage. If you don't want to use a whip, you don't have to.

I agree with most things you say here Dennis but I do think we can desensitise a horse that has been hit by a whip providing that it wasn't excessive abuse. Many of Monty's desensitising videos are all about helping horses overcome phobia's they have developed by cruel treatment in the past and having been whipped would be just one of these. I agree that if anyone ever approached the horse aggressively with a whip then it would revert to where it was previously. However desensitising this horse now is important as you never know when you will be near someone with a whip again and you don't want your horse to freak out as soon as he sees. Seems I have a couple of things to disagree with in your post this time Dennis (not usually the case). I disagree that a whip should be used as its name implies. In the past I have found a lunge whip an extremely useful aid in training but I have never whipped a horse with one. The lunge whip can signal to your horse to stay out on the circle, to slow down, to go faster, to stop misbehaving and to stop. Its length and the fact that it has a bit of rope on the end which turns it into a whip are essential for these purposes but not for whipping your horse

Thanks for the suggestions, I've been working with Wickles a lot, he is ok with the whip part, he is just afraid of me flapping the string. This is not good because lots of the kids at my barn use huge whips to lunge their horses and are a little inconsiderate of other peoples horses when they are scared.

Hi Madison - then this just means you will now have to desensitise him to the flapping of the string. Just take your time and be patient starting with a little flap then taking it away. Keep on doing it until he accepts the little flap then slowly build it up until you are using it like a lunge whip. Horses used for rounding up cattle in rough country in Australia need to be desensitised to a stock whip in this way so that the riders can ultimately crack the stock whip on their backs. Have fun! You can do it!

A direct question deserves a direct answer !!!!
If not, why ask the question?
Many questions asked here are never answered. One can search their whole lives and not find the correct answer to a question, it that fair?
Especially if you are paying for information. Why leave it up to amatures to give you information that could harm you or your horse.
This is why I stopped coming on the forum.
If you have a high spirited horse that has a personality that can be ruined by inept training and take full advantage of you. YOU NEED CORRECT INFORMATION!!!!
If you have paid for that information then you should get the answers if not it can be considered a scam.
Is it for the money or the horse?????

Star, I totally agree!

Questions are answered in the Question and answer section of the Uni.Also many of our answers we can find thro viewing the videos.Due to the great amount of letters ,e-mails etc received, I think it would be impossible to answer everyone on an individual basis.I thought the forum was a place for students to talk to each other, sort of like your college cafeteria.If we are in need of specific help with our horses we need an onsight trainer who can help us properly assess what is needed.I don't think the uni was intended to be a substitute for a trainer on the ground.As for money making instead of horse welfare, have you checked out other trainer sites and what they are charging.Some are so unaffordable that very few can make use of them.The uni stimulates thought and alternative ways of thinking about our involvement with horses and for that alone I think it is worth every penny.

I agree with you cheryl.
This site is not meant to be the be all and all of horse training.
It is one man passing on his knowledge of horses. In as gentle a way as possible.
If the uni is not what people signed up for, then dont sign up again.
I use to enjoy reading the forum and learning about other peoples difficulties and how they may make a change to their horses lives, now it always seems to end up in a disagreement about someones comments to another person.

Hallo All! What´s the question? So many vrote and I just make it easy to ask my question: What is the question and what do you want to know! Keep On Equus All!
If the question is What do I say to friends that are not interested?
My answer will be very simple - they do not want to know because they have not asked a question.
I had a very hard time going to the local ridinschool after my first courses at FIU, with time things get clearer and easier and at the same time more difficult. The hardes part was that I really saw what the horses tried to say.
10 years later - I understand what Monty means by saying: Let the horses do the talking for you.
I do not force anything upon a horse - nor do I do it on people. Plant one little seed and those who are ready will start to listen.
Any other questions? Just let me know!
Warmest Ann CI Sweden

Thanks Ann for helping out and participating in forum. It is great to read your comments.