Hi all,
We discussed a few days ago about pressurezone in one of Maggies questions on the forum; Join up with a shetland pony???
I understand this now, thank's to Miriam who explained that to me and I read also 'into pressure' in; From my hands to yours.
BUT.... is there also a comfortzone around/with horses?????
I looked in the Q&A and I found 2 reactions on that.
I couldn't find anything in the book (if I am right) and was wondering if there is a zone that is bigger or smaller and different from the pressurezone.
Why am I asking this, because Renske my 16yo, is standing in her stable in the morning when I am coming to her. I am still trying to get her used to the dually halter. If you want to read that soap-story look at MY STAR question about; fear of the dually.
The first time I introduced the dually to Renske it was outside and she reacted to the Dually how she reacts to other new things. She looks, moves a little bit, starts to sniff and then comes to my new "dangerous" thing and accepts it little by little. I didn't put the Dually on her outside.
I do things very slowly and relaxed and don't put her into MY pressure THAT I WANT HER TO PUT THAT DUALLY ON.
I tried it the other day in her stable, new situation, the same procedure in the stable as outside and it looks like she has the "stage-management" on this.
Like she is saying; 'my stable is my room and don't come with special new objects, because this is my safe place. And you can give me my food and ofcourse can get me out of my stable to groom me and put me in the paddock and when you take me back in for the night, switch the light of and close the door when you are leaving'.
MY STAR said in the forum question; fears for the Dually;
"Something that may make you all laugh, when I introduce MY STAR to anything new I lay it on the floor of her bridge that is located in her large pasture, she's very curious and has no fear of most things. Now, when I went to bring her in for the night yesterday, her dually halter was not there. She had picked it up and carried it all the way to the fence line, strange no fear of the sound then, ah."
(I don't want to say that this is the same, because it was also to do with the sound of the dually... but MY STAR put it away.)
So it sounds to me that horses have a comfortzone.
An other thing what happend, last sunday, was that we were drinking our coffee in the evening outside and I can see the stable where Renske is in. I could hear here walking around in a way I never heard. It was more a nervous walk.
I went to her and she was walking in circles in her stable.
When she saw me, she came immediatly to me and looked me into MY eyes. She wanted my attention for something. So she looked me in the eyes and turned her head to the wall and looked at me again. That wall is not up to the ceiling so there is a space behind it what you can see. It's for 100 years there so nothing new to Renske.
But I could feel something, already immediatly when I came into the stable. There was something there what made Renske nervous.
So she tried to get my attention again looked in my eyes and looked again to that wall and didn't a move her feet, she stood realy in front of me. My husband came in the stable and I told him there was something there. He could feel it as well and he saw "two people standing there behind the wall". So he asked them to leave.
(For the once who are down to earth, sorry, but for me there is more between heaven and earth.)
I stroke Renske and calmed her.. and we went out of her stable and she was oké.
What I am saying is that for me there is a comfortzone but how does it work?
And an other question offcourse is, is there more what horses can see or feel then most of us can?
Has anyone have experiences with this or simular what I experienced with Renske?
I am looking forward to your reactions.
Thank you and kind regards, May.
Hi May
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This is an interesting topic for discussion. I have read your post a couple of times before responding to make sure I understand correctly.
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I don't think horses have a comfort zone because they are flight animals, and a comfort zone would allow a preditor to get too close. But I do believe that horses come to accept people being close to them through the trust that the process of Join-Up establishes. I also believe that they evaluate whether or not we should be able to be close to them based on our body language and communication.
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I also believe that horses are intuitive and can "read" our intentions by observing our eyes and body language and possibly our scent. Its scientifically proven that we emit different pheromones depending on our mood, so I wonder if horses may be able to smell that???
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For example, I had a boyfriend once when I was young and my horse (a mare) hated him. She would lay her ears back,show her teeth and snap at him and stand between us whenever she had the opportunity. It turned out that he was a bad man - and it appears that she picked him for who he really was on the inside. I always watch how my horses and dogs react to people now. Its very interesting.
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As far as the accepting of new things and fearing the Dually Halter is concerned, I am not sure if I am going to put my words right here, but will try my best not to offend.
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I think in many cases, we encourage our horses to be sceptical or afraid of things. If we approach the horse with a new object and our heart rate is up or we are nervous because we expect a bad reaction, then the horse feels that and his or her adrenaline goes up, causing the horse to behave poorly which in turn makes us think "Oh, my horse is afraid of this new thing --". When really, the horse is reacting to us more than the new thing.
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When we don't "school" the horse to correct his or her error on not accepting the new thing, then we are basically teaching the horse not to accept it, because the PICNIC principle is not applied.
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One of my mares was VERY fizzy when we bought her. Lucky she has great bloodlines or I would never have bothered. She would run when you tried to catch her, she would balk at going into the float (trailer), she would go absolutely crazy at the sight of a stick in someone's hand (she threw her previous owner when someone picked up a stick to help him walk while on a trail ride) and would freak out at the sight or sound of a plastic bag.
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She would also over react when you put pressure on the lead rope. For this reason, we did a LOT of ground work which included join-up as a priority to gain her trust and made a special point of schooling with the Dually Halter.
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It took a lot of time and persistence, and I had to leave her for a bit so I could hone my skills on more "tame" horses, but when I came back to her, I was afraid because I knew she was going to behave badly. But I behaved in a way where I portrayed to her that everything I was doing was NORMAL and it didn't matter what she did, she could flee if she wanted to, but I was staying calm and persistent, because what I was asking of her was NORMAL and she was invited to come on a journey with me to accept these things as being a NORMAL part of her life.
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She gave me resistance when I introduced her to the Dually. She didn't like it one bit. She would put her head up when I tried to put it on and do other silly things. In light of what I understand from Monty's writing, she saw the Dually Halter was a threat to her ability to flee for survival, so it was my responsibility to gain her trust and show her otherwise. She eventually learned how it worked and accepted that good behavior was better than the bad. But it did take time.
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She is what I would call a normal horse now, and lives a very relaxed life.
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May, I think if its safe, and you have introduced your horse to a Dually Halter in the yard and your mare is OK with it out there, it really shouldn't be that much different to putting it on your horse when she is in the stable. Afterall, its just a halter.
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I have also found that I have had more trouble introducing a new thing when I have "shown" it to the horse than what I have when I have just gone about my business just like it was a normal part of what I do. Not sure what experience other people have had with that. It would be interesting to know.
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But you know your horse better than anyone, so you just have to make sure you are both safe.
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I think Renske reacted to those people outside her stable the way she did because she did not know their scent and therefore, did not trust them - which made her want to flee. But she couldn't flee, because she was in her stable, so she got restless instead. Perhaps she could sense that they were up to no good too. She obviously trusts you to take care of her, so you have done a great job :-)
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Keep studying Monty's methods because they really work! And behave like everything you are doing is normal - because it is :-) The other thing of importance is not to read too much into the behaviours of the horses. They don't think the way we do. We as humans tend to project our emotions and thoughts onto our animals when they are quite simply not that complicated and capable of our level of complex thought. The horse only has two goals in life, to reproduce and survive. I believe through Join-Up, we show them that we are not a threat to those goals and they learn that we can be trusted.
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These are just my thoughts, and thank you for this discussion topic, because I enjoyed thinking it through. It will be interesting to see what other people come up with.
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Kind regards,
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Gen
Hi Gen,
Thank you so much for taking the time for me to explain how you are thinking about my questions and you gave me realy good information on this.
Yes, I think a lot about situations, because I realy like to understand how horses are reacting.
What I understand is that you have a lot of experiences and I am just a beginner.
What for you is so normal, is for me a new experience. Therefore it is so kind of you to explain this to me.
You are right, when we are talking about giving a NORMAL reaction when it comes to something new, introducing to the
horse.
I have already have the experience with Renske and MY introducing the Dually halter to her. I was nervous and happy, because it was all new to me (the Dually) and probably my adrenaline went up. I am convinced that Renske felt this. So now I am trying to keep the adrenaline down, deep breathing and be as relaxed as I can. (I am making progress on myself.)
I don't know if you read my story of introducing the Dually to her, but when I made my mistakes on Renske, I introduced the dually to Luuk 2yo like ;"ha... I know how it works now and I will do it better on you Luuk". And there was nothing wrong with him, his reaction was what you said; just a halter, even the sound of the buckles were no problem for him. Luuk is a very playfull young horse, who likes everything and is not realy afraid.
Could it be also character or is this also a human thought?
Can you understand my thoughts about the comfortzone, because Renske was reacting like that in her stable? Luuk was also in his stable (I put him there) when I introduced the Dually, but he is only there for getting his food once a day. He is outside all the time, so my thinking was, that the stable was not his comfortzone.
It takes me a lot more time now to introduce the dually to Renske. I made a mistake with her and I have to correct it with patience and NORMAL behaviour my side.
You had also "problems" to put the Dually on and it took you also time and you are experienced.
And that all because (in your case other) people make/made mistakes. Don't you think?
It's the same with dogs its more difficult to turn a bad behaviour into good behaviour then immediatly start to teach them good behaviour.
And I understand what you are saying about the comfortzone.
I hope you understood that those people in Renskes stable were not real people from flesh and blood. And I think you are right IF Renske can see them she can't smell them because probably they have no smell. It is more an energy field around them and for me it didn't feel right. That's why I was wondering if horses can see and/or feel more then the most of us can do.
Through the forum and also Monty's lessons and his book; from my hands to your hands I learn a lot.
And I will take your advice not to read to much about behaviours of the horse. But it is me who want's to learn more and more and understand it when something is coming on my path. Maybe I make it more difficult then it is.
I have to let your advices and explanations sink in now and will come back to you. It is realy a lot of good information and I will take the time for it.
I am studing Monty's methods, I love the way he is explaining things and I will keep doing this. I will also going back to the PICNIC principle and watch and read this again.
Yes, I am also curious if other students are reacting on my questions and your reactions and hope they will share there thoughts with us. We wait and see.
Thank you again Gen for this and I will let you know how things are going.
Very kind regards,
May
Hi again May :-)
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No worries, this is a good thought provoking topic. Please don't think that I am very experienced, as I am a beginner in all this too. Believe me, I have made so many mistakes in my attempts to apply Monty Roberts' techniques over the last year, that its not funny. My horses and I have been tangled up in longlines and all kinds of silly things. But its been a great learning opportunity and I can't wait to do my Intro Course in September.
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I have found that my horses are forgiving (for want of a better term) and seem to be able to "get over" my mistakes if I act normal - like there's nothing wrong and keep my heart rate steady. Renske will be the same.
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I understand better now what you mean about the two people. I was thinking people of flesh and blood. Yes, I believe that all animals can see and sense things that aren't right, just as some people can. There are many things in this world that can't be easily explained.
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Don't be too concerned about making a mistake with Renske. You will both be able to move on from it. Mistakes are normal. You may have to work with Luuk a bit more to hone your skills before going back to Renske. That's what I had to do with Babe and Ranger because I was having trouble with them. Working with Luuk will give you more confidence. He sounds like a lovely little fellow :-)
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Even though I think that horses think in simple terms, I believe that they definately have personalities. Renacer, my rescue horse, is always interested in what I'm doing. If he sees me out in the yard, he comes up to see what's going on. He watches me like a hawke when I ride Ranger, my other riding horse. Where as Ranger, pays no attention to Renacer and I when we ride at all. He acknowleges me when he sees me, but in a different way to Renacer. Babe watches my husband and I. Her eyes follow every move we make when we are working near her. Dazzler, my other mare, is different again. I haven't had her for very long, and I am still getting to know her. She acknowledges me but keeps her distance. She will come to me when I invite her to though. Its funny, as each horse is the same but different.
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Yes, the problems I had with Babe were partly from other people, but I also contributed because I was nervous and my heart would really pound at times sending our adrenaline up. I am still learning to control that. It takes time and practice.
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You are on the right track May, you love your horses and you have been lucky enough to come across Monty Roberts and his methods. You are going to succeed with Renske and any other horse you come across if you keep up the learning you are doing now. Its great that you are so keen to learn. A couple of your questions on the forum have really helped me!
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Your horses are lucky to have you.
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Kind regards,
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Gen
Hi Gen,
Thank you again, Gen!!!
Probably we are the only two now who are talking about this subject, ha....
I understand exactly what you are saying. It's so good to give examples, because it helps me to see the whole picture.
I will tell you, this morning I tried again the dually on Renske and I came one step further with her.... so I am making progress. I did NORMAL and did the low breathing and tried to get my adrenaline down.
Maybe it sound silly, but I am drinking, before I start with Renske at the farm, always coffee (cafeine). At home I never drink cafeine coffee, but decafeinated. When I drink to much of that cafeine coffee, I feel more jumpy, if you understand what I mean, like a kangeroo and you know how they can jump, haha.
Because of that I am probably also more higher in hartbeat and tence.
It was this morning I relised that. I don't want to say that I am right and maybe I am thinking to far over the line, but it could be possible that Renske is feeling that as well.
I will try this out these coming days, no cafeine coffee.
This morning I worked also with Luuk. Wauw, that was great.
I started a new subject for him, putting him a small blancket on him. I don't know how you call it in English, but it is that thing you put underneath the saddle.
He was standing outside and I came with that blacket to him.
In the NORMAL way. I let him sniff on it and realy he put his whole nose in it, like playing with it. It was funny to see that. Then I started to "stroke" that blacket on his neck, took it away and let him sniff again. Then on his neck and shoulder, took it away. Gave him a stroke on his forhead and walked a circle with him. Then did the same procedure and stroke the blacket on his back. Took it away. And THEN there it was on his back.... yes, yes, yes.... I was so proud of him and offcourse of myself. I took it away again and put it on. No problem at all.
I am helping the owner (70 yo) of Luuk with leading him/walking on long lines as preparation to the big challance to put him in the future before a cart.
So with the blacket on his back we put the equipment we need for leading him. We did this before, without the blacket. There was nothing wrong or strange for Luuk with the new situation and it gave me such a good feeling. Yes, what you said more confidence.
I think what you say; there is a difference in personalities, is right and I can see that now.
I will work on that and see how things are developing.
I can immagine that you can't wait for the course in september. I am thinking to go to England to see Monty giving demonstrations in oct/nov. this year.
I will keep you updated if you like that, how I am doing with all this.
Hope there are still more students out there who are going to join us with our conversation.
Cheers,
May
Gen! A little comment: the "bad man" was smelling of alcool?
May! I had the problem in one horse. It depended a lot how the Dually was put on: From the right better than the left, without putting the arm over his collar was better, and so on. You may try little variations. Or positive reinforcement with a clicker training (did not work in my horse), negative reinforcement by putting one Dually on for communication and adding a second.
Hi Rudi,
Thank you for the ideas. I will try tomorrow how she reacts when I put the Dually on, haha...., on the other side of her.
This morning I was half way with the Dually on her head. So maybe when I try it from an other position she will except it.
I will see what happens.
Kind regards, May
Hi Rudi
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Good to hear from you. No, the "bad man" didn't smell of alcohol when he was near my horse. Its funny actaully because a lot of people's dogs didn't like him either - including my own dog and my Dad's dog. He was bad in my eyes because he was violent towards me.
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That was a long time ago, so it doesn't bother me any more. But I always find it interesting to watch my dogs and horses when they meet people to see how they react. They appear to be a very good judge of character.
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Actually May, Rudi's comment about putting the Dually on from the other side reminded me of Babe. Most people, including myself approach horses from the left or near side to catch them. Well, Babe would turn and walk away from me when I tried to catch her in the beginning. So, one day I approached her from the right or off side to see what she would do. And she stood there and let me catch her. Funny hey? I can approach her from any side now and she will walk towards me these days.
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When I train a horse, I always make a point of doing everything on both sides. I even saddle up, mount and dismount from the right as well as the traditional left. Not sure if this practice is supported by professional trainers, but I have found that doing this makes my horses very quiet and nothing seems to bother them too much by the time I'm done. You should seek advice from other professionals on that before you do it though. Its just something I thought was a good idea and have always done.
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Good luck May, and keep us updated.
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See you later,
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Gen
Hi Gen and Rudi,
IT WORKED.....yes....!!!!
Yesterday, I went to Renske and tried the Dually on from the front left side. So different what I did before. It took a little bit for Renske to come to me, because she saw that halter again, but she came to me without pressure my side and I put it very relaxed on her. I had to make it fit on her, but she was alright. I could see that she still didn't like it, but she agreed on it. Then I took the Dually of again and stroke her. She walked away and I asked her again, with my eyes, to come back to me. It took a while (few minutes), but in the end she came to me. I put her halter on and took her outside the stable and gave her her beauty-treatment haha..
Today I will put the Dually again on Renske and see how it works then.
I am not drinking caffinated coffee now and I want to see if there is any differences in action-reaction on both. If you want to hear the results of this, just tell me.
Thank you so much for the advices and after nearly two weeks of trying, keeping my patience and relaxed attitude and your ideas, the whole soap-story about the Dually became a succes.
Cheers, May
Hi May
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Excellent! Normal and relaxed is the way to go :-) And after all, it is just a halter. My horse Babe was a bit the same as Renske. But we got there and she now agrees that its just another halter :-)
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Yes, keep us updated, as I love being able to come on here and chat :-)
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Kind regards,
Gen
Well done May!! You must be so very proud of yourself and Renske now. I have enjoyed reading your descriptions of Renske's behaviour May and Gen's fantastic, well explained advice. I am not an expert either but like Gen I teach my horses to accept everything from both sides. It does seem to make them quieter and at times when I have had an injury it has paid off too. When breaking in my Trickortreat (Tricka) I put my feet into a long stirrup and pulled myself up on both sides for sometime before finally mounting her. I still occasionally mount her from the off side so that she stays used to that. Big thanks here to Gen for your excellent and detailed explanations to May's questions and for your question May. Gen's answer was so thorough that I think the rest of us just figured there was no need to respond because it had all been said! Great that Rudy helped solve the problem too! Horses do react so differently to different people - they seem to instintively know and trust gentle horsey people but I guess that is because we know their language and how to approach them. My Pie hated her previous young owner - went for her as soon as she entered the yard with ears back teeth nashing then turned and kicked out. By contrast when I asked the young girl to step out of the yard and I went in I received a totally different reaction - quiet and submissive . I didn't even know much about Monty's techneques at that stage! At the time I figured that this reaction must have been because I reminded her of the kind lady who initially broke her in but I have wondered since learning more from Monty. Perhaps it was just my relaxed body language. I only purchased Pie because I never wanted her to suffer as she had in the past again and I still have her. She used to be terrified of all males and would have liked to kill them - especially those wearing wide brimmed felt hats. It was so hard when the vet and farrier had to come. The first time the farrier put a twitch on her and although she was submissive during that time she fought back afterwards and was angry with me for letting it happen. I had to be very patiently and loving to make up the ground we lost. I promised My Star that I wouldn't mention carrots again but carrots are what saved Pie. She trusted me so I spent ages preparing her for the farrier with her legs and then had a different gentler farrier come. Because she was so terrified she was prone to injury and we had many vet visits. She slowly learnt to trust my vet as he was always so patient and gentle with her. Initially if we needed to give her a needle I would find the biggest carrot available then stand behind her head so she couldn't see the vet come in with the needle to sedate her. In the end she accepted needles without to much fuss and after Tricka's birth she became a very different horse. See Pie's Story under "Horses that are difficult to catch in the field" for more on Pie. As Monty says we learn so much from horses that have been previoulsy abused.
Error Pie's Stroy is under"horses charging people in the field"
Hi Maggie
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I am glad someone else does what I do with working on both sides :-)
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Pie's story is wonderful. I remember reading it and am glad that everything is working out well for her. Its sad to think of how many good horses are lost for no fault of their own. Its good that there are people like you and many others on the Uni out there who are willing to give these horses a chance to live a useful life.
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Horses are quite amazing in so many ways.
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See you later,
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Gen
Hi all,
Just to tell you that everything goes very well. I am putting the Dually on Renske from both sides now and it is working perfectly.
I was wondering about the coffee, can you remember? And I have to say there is a differce. There is more a relaxing feeling in my body, not jumping around annymore and I am sure Renske can feel that as wel. So for me no coffee with caffeïn or other drinks with that!!!
Maggie, I can't find your story about Pie, what is the Topic you put it under?
I am still working with Luuk to do stand still, brushing him and put the blanket on and he loves it. He stands more still now when I am brushing him. In the beginning he was moving around, not because he was afraid, but curious.
Near his ring, where he stands to brush him, there is a window and he is looking through it and when he can't find out what is happening inside he goes to the left and put his head through the doorway to see more. He is such a lovely 2yo. He loves to sniff me and now I "blow" him in his nose to make contact with him. He is realy funny. What I said, very playfull and he want's to "cuddle".
He is a very good student and learns very quickly. So thumbs up for you to help me out and this story will be continued if you wish.
Kind regards, May