Oh and the time frame, maybe that'd be useful, I started getting in the saddle at the end of january, started riding 3 times a week through february and march. April we went back to 100% gound work as i'd separated her from her field mate and she was having a hard time accepting it. June was a miw of ground work and riding. She injured her foot at the end of may and didn't do any king of work all of june.
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In all before july, she was ridden about 50 times in all, in 20/30 minutes increments so about 25 hours in all, never outdoors until july.

*"June was a miw of ground work" I meant may sorry

Hej Lucie.
I am in the same boat as you , and I have the same view of training as you.
Of course Dayka knows how to canter, she is a horse !!
I agree fully with you when you write how she can connect at a walk with you and then just a little trot at a time, that's what Shilo is also doing- also at Henriks mustang training center.
They also do one thing at a time and in the horses pace / tempo.
In Denmark we say ' Hast værk er last værk' which translated means Work done in hurry will sit on your shoulders for ever!!
In my inexperienced view I think you are doing it the correct way.
Many are too much in a hurry with horses which I don't think makes a stabel horse- just my opinion.

Best wishes from Dionne

Hi Lucie, you say Dayka is a filly?? Can you confirm how old please? Filly is a one year old.
Mel
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Hello Lucie; Stick to your guns girl. Everything has a time. The WALK IS THE MOTHER OF ALL GATES. We can never forget this. Everything about riding a horse successfully starts and ends with the walk. Use this time to get SO GOOD in the walk that you cannot get it wrong. This will bring about an unbelievable CONFIDENCE FOR BOTH you and your Dayka. Your walk can be taken to the outer limits as you add rhythm to the exercise and get Dayka to lower her head so she is walking while stretching her back and neck. This is called long and low and will add strength to the rear-end,back and neck[top-line]over time. This is a developmental approach to the other gaits as the horse gains strength and confidence. It also is the precursor to lateral work as the horse will have difficulty being supple enough to bend without the strength of working off of its rear-end which releases the spinal column to flex sideways. A good forward walk, with a body swing, brings about an elegance of movement that, if practiced routinely, and rhythmically, will develop a horse that is about the BEAUTY OF MOTION. That beauty of motion will find itself in the trot and canter, later on, as the horse is developed. This approach to developing the horse also brings an insurance policy that helps the horse to stay away from the many hours of down time due to a strained this or that. It`s like conditioning a super athlete, everything just gets stronger.
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.The other great benefit to this approach is that it develops YOU, THE RIDER,into having a fantastic seat while building a great riding relationship with your horse.
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Lucie, I hope this gives you the motivation to stay the course of slowly developing Dayka in a manner that you comfortable with. With patience and a ritualistic approach, you could be basking in the sunlight of excellence.
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All the best my friend.
Bud

I agree with everyone - take your time and work with your horse at a pace that suits you both. Quality it is the aim, not speed :-) Hold your head high Lucie and trust yourself.

You're reaching your goals and there's nothing wrong with that, you are not under time pressure so keep doing what you're doing!

I'm with everyone else,too, Lucie! :)
Let your horse set the pace. Some things will take longer others will be faster, the important thing is that you two are happy with the progress, not other people.

Hi Lucie and good morning. I thought that I might direct you to a series of videos that you can see on U-Tube that takes the viewing audience through the entire process that I spoke to you about above. You can see first hand how the student is developing her horse while the instructor, Will Faeber, narrates what she is doing. Go to VIDEO CRITIQUE LISETTE AND TIMO and that should take into the action. I would suggest videos #1 and #2 because they start at the begining with a horse that had not been started properly. Just watch how the horse tends to change with a much brighter looking- GO AHEAD- right before your eyes.
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I hope you enjoy
Bud

Hi Lucie and all,
All the above has my full agreement! Before a young horse can find it's balance under a rider at a canter, it needs to build the right muscles, the joints have to be strong enough and of course it needs to feel a deep confidence towards his rider! This is what you're working on right now, it takes as long as it takes.. Monty says time is not important, good horses are!
Some people start their horses at a walk going out into nature, this may take several months, before the first even trot comes into play.
You seem to have found a pace in the startingprocess that works for Dayka and you, don't let anyone interrupt that process.
You're doing a great job and remember: slow is fast!
Miriam

Thanks everyone for your explanations ! You've confirmed what I thought.
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Mel, over here we call them fillies/colts until the end of their 3rd year, i guess you'd call them young horses ? Dayka turned 3 in April.
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Bud - I remember when i first started riding my horse you had suggested i was going too fast and I didn't really understand what you meant. But i took your advice and stopped trying to do more than just walk and the results are definitely there. Dayka used to be very clumsy, tripping over her feet all the time, not raising her back under the saddle, keeping her head high all the time. Now she's really gained balance when ridden and she raises her back, HELPING ME to improve my seat because now I can feel it right away when i'm off balance. My friend was really surprised to see how her rear-end had developped in just a few months wuth just walking.
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This morning i rode her for the first time just the two of us. She was very worried not to have anyone walking next to her. The ride took twice the time it took with someone on the ground but it went well. She was walking as...slow...as...she...possibly...could... but she went where i asked her, she was concerned about everything that she was ok with just last week but she didn't show any big reaction. It felt like she was just asking me if i was sure it was ok for us to be out on our own without "bodyguard" :) she was stepping so softly it was like she was a cat hunting, It was quite funny actually !
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I'm going to keep riding her a bit everyday on the same loops that we did all month, i'm curious to see how many rides it takes for her to realise we're going to be fine :D

Hi Lucie,
You're making great progress with Dayka!
What could help with her being so slow when on her own out there, is to use your eyes to softly look at some point in the distance, so she senses, that you know where the two of you are heading. This also helps your seat, looking in the distance is making you sit deeper in the saddle. If you have your eyes on your horse, she doesn't sense where you're going and it lifts your seatbones slightly out of the saddle.
Let us know if this works for you! Happy rides...
Miriam

Thank you Miriam, yes I have been very careful to do that. And since i'm not really good with my hands i've really been working on relying more on my legs for changes in direction and she really responds well to it. i just keep my hands aligned with where i look and give leg cues when she's not responding to my head for turns or when she drifts. It's very efficient and easier for me to have good timing about realeasing pressure.
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Today she started a bit faster then slowed down a bit but it was better, she didn't keep her ears forward on alert all the time like yesterday, she kept one on me when i was giving her cues.
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I do have another question for you guys, yesterday I forgot my bridle at home so i only had the dually on. Today i put the bridle on top of the dually, but kept riding off the schooling rings. I have a happy mouth bit on there, do you think it could also be a factor for her being so anxious yesterday ? I always leave the bit on usually, but i forgot yesterday.

Oh and btw, going back to the very first question i was wondering about : why do they rush to canter the horses, a friend of mine who's also starting her youngster answered it (and it's what i thought), she said "because if we wait until they've got the muscles they're too strong and we can't MAKE them listen"... you'd think that'd make "traditional people" realise forcing horses to do stuff is not efficient...
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I explained how i was approaching it and she looked at me like i had two heads ^^ but she's heard it, who knows maybe the idea will make its way :)

Lucie wrote"do you think it could also be a factor for her being so anxious yesterday ?"
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Well, it's a possibility that she was at a loss if your communication-roads (bit vs bitless) had changed along with going out "alone", but if she is used to the Dually, I'm thinking she was too preoccupied by being in the lead of the flock to take much notice.
He-he, I recognize the "tip-toeing" part! My horse was the same when he got in the lead.
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As for the reason your friend gave why people are in a rush, I find it a bit funny. It's true that horses at one point or the other realize how strong they are and decide to test it. (Not all, but definitely a lot! It's a maturing thingy so they would do that in a wild flock as well, I believe.)
But the reasons that you "can't MAKE them listen" sounds askew to me. Then they wouldn't be very well trained to begin with.
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My two cents on the issue is that it's just have been done that way as part of a traditional procedure to build strength, balance, fitness, obedience etc, and to be able to control the horse in all gaits before you take it outdoors.
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I think most people will agree that you don't start cantering the horse (with a rider on) before it has enough balance to do so, but to achieve that balance it needs to learn to canter on the lines and on command to build up to that balance etc. It's a circle of learning.
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I'm also thinking that having young horses find out early on that they can trot and canter with a rider on is a good experience that builds confidence in the horse, helps it to relax quicker under rider as it has opportunity to find a more forward going propulsion and loosen up at a faster pace than walk. It also gets the horse used to the idea that it can and shall move under rider in all gaits - something some horses can refuse to do at a later point simply because it wasn't asked of them sooner and so they think walk is all they need to do.
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Come to think of it, I seem to recall that Monty commented somewhere that he didn't want to take too long in teaching the horse the basics, but rather move on while it was receptive. Or something like that...
I'm sure Mel or Vicci or someone can help me out here! :)
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All that said, horses are different and it is part of horsemanship to figure out how each individual works! :)

Kicki - i always ride off the dually, the bit is on top of it but i don't use it anyway (why would i do that? to get her used to having it in her mouth without hurting her with my cluymsyness).
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What you're saying makes a lot of sense to me.
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However from the way i've seen other horses being started around where i live, the procedure generally is : leave the horse in a field until it's 3 only teaching it to be led to change pastures and to see the farrier, when it's 3, saddling it, giving it a pelham bit on the lower ring and a very tight noseband, getting on with a rigid whip & spiky spurs. Usually 2 people hold the horse while the rider gets on, the horse gets scared, bolts, gets rammed in the mouth a couple of times, which usually makes it kick or attempt to bolt again, at which point they get the whip and spurs in a turn on the shoulders until they stop moving. then they're allowed to go forward in a completely submissive posture which is considered a desirable and successful outcome. It was explained to me that this is the gentle way, apparently some people "aren't so soft on the horses" (this is what i was told when i asked why they used such hard methods). And the people who do that are actually considered gentle with horses around here.
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So with that in mind, i think when they want to go fast to break the horse before it realises it can outpower the human or before it ever gets the idea that maybe they could challenge their handler.

Hi Lucie; I find that everyone has their own idea, depending on their belief system, of how to train horses. What is NOT factored into this discussion is the basic nature of the individual horse and also the competency of the rider. The all important rider-horse relationship seems to be missing. I have always felt that one should look to the future through your mind`s eye when developing a horse especially if you are not an experienced trainer with an untrained horse. You seem to be doing this through your questioning when are you not quite sure of what and how to complete the next step. I must say we have all been there, so we know fist hand what you might be experiencing. You have landed on what the FORUM is all about; TO HELP FOLKS UNDERSTAND THEMSELVES AND THEIR HORSES and what their next step might be.
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. As we know, many small steps are needed before we can experience the results of our efforts to bring about what could be an art form of connectivity with our horse. But that`s where I see the GOOD STUFF happening. It`s in the journey, and it must happen for each of us as we prepare ourselves for each step. We live in a fast moving world, so it follows that we must be moving as fast as everyone else, or something is amiss. The missing link in this thought pattern is the horse, and how they learn. That`s where all of this hurry up, giddy up mentality gets in trouble with progress and brings us back to the proverbial DRAWING TABLE OF THE MIND; for the next new idea that may or may not work.
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Lucie, if you have not watched the videos that I suggested on U-Tube, I urge you to take a look. They will give a whole different view-point on developing Dayka along with a vision of what can be accomplished through a ritualistic training approach.
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My best wishes to you and Dayka.
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Bud

Lucie, when you elaborate on the issue, I understand better why your friend said what she said. It makes a lot lore sense now - sadly!
I think I am a bit too sheltered here in my part of the world! LOL!

"The logic i'm following is that if i can't get Dayka to listen to me at a walk, there's no point in asking her for faster gaits."

I love it! And having taught children for 17 years, I have learned this, there is no one right way to teach anything to anyone. You MUST teach the students you have, not the students someone else had. And I'm finding, please excuse my bluntness, as a newcomer to the horse world, a LOT of know-it-alls and Buttinsky's. Everybody thinks they know what's best for your horse. Maybe they do, and maybe they don't. But the fact remains is that she's YOUR HORSE and you can do whatever you feel is true and correct for both of you. So YOU GO GIRL!

Lucie, it's just sounds so fantastic , the progress you are having with Dayka.
Well done.
Baby steps, that's what I have learned over the last few months, and it works.
Shilo has been in a trot with rider today ( video on you tube )
So now it's my turn ! And I hope to have just as much success as you have.
Don't let anybody rush you - Dayka is your horse- only you and her know when it's time to change tempo.
I'm sure that I'll be at a walk with Shilo for the next 6 months, but so what, rather that than injuries , heartache and worries, and possibly a horse who becomes unstable.
Keep doing what you do Lucie, I'm following your lead.

Dionne.

Be advise, this is a long answer !! lol (sorry i'm chatty)
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Haven't had a lot of time since our last ride on wednesday. It went alright, she was tense because there had been a lot of activity around her pen, so i just let "blow off some steam" when she wanted to trot out of nerves. There was no point in asking her to stay at a walk, she would have gotten frustrated so i took the chance to ask her for a trot when i felt she might "steal" it and just controlled the speed. I felt she felt better by the end of our ride.
Rode her again this morning. Usually i avoid riding when it's her "worst day of the month" but it was too tempting today. She was going forward generously, no nerves just energy at the beginning, then i don't know she decided turning right was not going to happen so we argued a bit, i think it was linked to her hormones because there was no new elements, she was just annoyed that i was asking her to go where she didn't want. It was a really good ride, she got a bit nervous here and there, she just didn't want to be ridden today, everything i asked was annoying her but now i'm starting to read when she's really going to take off or when she's just "arguing" with me. As long as i remember to saty calm i can get her to cooperate, the second i get tense she "fights" me so she's making me work a lot as well :)
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Bud - i haven't finisehd watching them all, that's a lot to take in especially when it's not in your native tongue, but what i've seen is really interesting. Made me realise i tented to drop my shoulders when riding, so that's already helping :D I need to watch the whole thing a few times, get the language out of the way !
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Kicki - yeah, until they brought me there i was trying to explain what i was doing with Dayka but when i saw what they considered gentle i understood we just spoke different languages... I'm really happy that now i'm far along with Dayka that I don't have to explain that this way is better, they can see her behavior and they can't argue that.
I mean, they're a long way from admitting it's a valid approach out loud but they've stopped arguing it doesn't work, they just don't know what to say (that's fun to see actually, you can almost see the wheels turning in their heads trying to figure out if it's a trick or if it really works).
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Coco - "Everybody thinks they know what's best for your horse" so true. I also feel to some extend they feel threatened to see that their way isn't the only way and that it doesn't take a professional to get results. A lot of my friends are professionals, lots of experience for many many years, and I think it touches their ego to see that a novice like me can get results like that. I mean, i'm slower and i make mistakes, sure, but results are there. A couple of months ago they were advising me to sell Dayka because "I would never be able to break her", "she's too spooky, you'll kill yourself", etc. As if having people doing things differently questionned their ability with their horses... I guess if we were to analyse maybe that's because deep down they know something's not right with their way but it's hard to accept you've been doing soemthing wrong ? Ok, i'll just stop here or i'll write te pages !! :D

Hi Lucie, sounds like you are discovering many things about yourself and other people. This is precisely why the journey that your on with Dayka is such a valuable experience. There are many paths a person can take to achieve their goals. So many things that dance in and out of your life need a foundation to settle themselves on so they can stay for a while. You are building that foundation with Dayka and I believe that it`s re-enforced with LOVE. YOUR STORY REMINDS US ALL OF THE PATH THAT WE CHOSE FOR OURSELVES. and you know what; our journeys are not finished by NO MEANS.
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.My hope is that your discoveries with Dayka give you pause to smile with the satisfaction and the confidence that you are making a difference for you and Dayka. That difference will lead you both to a very nice place.
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I would suggest that go back to your ground work Dayka when she is having problems following your leadership in the saddle.. Like people, horses have good days and bad days. We, as their humans, just have to find a way to flip their internal switch that opens co-operative side..IT IS A PROCESS.
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Best wishes
Bud
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Well, I can only chime in with Bud to tell you don't worry about her attempts to not abide by your requests. It's a natural thing for (young) horses to do once they start to realize what this "riding game" is all about.
Oh, boy, do I have experience in this!!!! Don't have a good solution for you - wish I had one for myself! - except: stay at it, don't loose your patience or your cool and keep smiling!
(I always try to keep Charles Chaplin's wonderful song "Smile" in my mind!)
Love this line!:"If you smile through your fear and sorrow Smile and maybe tomorrow You'll see the sun come shining through For you."
Worth a try!:D

Oh maybe i didn't express myself right... i didn't mean to say i was worried about our "arguing" i'm actually proud of that because just a little while ago I would never have dared to ride her on a bad day and if I did, she wouldn't have had the patience to try and understand what I was asking, she would have done something big to scare me (she knows how to do that) and it would have worked. I'm really happy with our progress ! :)
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Now when ridden the bigger reactions come from excitement either from a big open space or from walking by other horses, which are both very understandable for a young horse who's living alone. Even then, today for example, she gets excited but she does listen if i am clear and consistant with my cues. Those good rides are giving me major confidence boost, we going to have so much fun together :D

Oh i forgot to answer you Bud, i agree with you that i need to keep doing ground work. I've included some driving "at liberty" in her field before i catch her and then some dually work before i get her ready for the ride.
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I'm trying to make it a little ritual for us to connect before going out, i think that can help her get in the mind frame of listening to me and it gives me a chance to see how she is on a particular day and to "tune" myself to her.
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And when i have trouble getting her attention while riding I do a few figure eights, back up, stand still like i would on the ground until i get her attention again. I feel it helps me get her focus back on me sometimes.

Hi Lucie; What a great way to connect with Dayka. You have got it going, Girl, and you have used the magic word RITUAL. I am so very happy for you. It sounds to me like you are taking a confident direction with the path that you have chosen for Dayka`s training and learning.
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GREAT JOB

Bud

Hi Lucie,
You can be very proud of yourself and Dayka for what you acchieved!
Maybe I got it wrong, but does Dayka live alone? You mentioned other people who gave their comments on your training, but no other horses...
Is there a chance of you finding a small herd for Dayka to live in? Social contact is what all horses need, being herd animals. A lot of anxiety could just disappear, when she finds her own herd.
Shoud I be wrong, just ignore this post!
Keep the good work going,
Miriam

Thanks Bud :)
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Hi Miriam.
No unfortunately you read me right, Dayka has been isolated since April. She had a field mate before that but her owner was completely irresponsible so I decided not to continue with her and before that Dayka was with my friend's heavy draft broodmares & younsters for 3 or 4 months but she kept getting beat up and they were used to running throught fences so we came to the conclusion that Dayka would be safer out of that herd.
I can definitely see her anxiety and spookiness evolve depending on which pasture she's in (isolated or with other animals/horses in the next field) but at the moment the best i can give her is a field with a pony and donkey on the other side of the fence.
I try to put her in the isolated plot as little as possible but I do not have a lot of space available so that's a bit tricky. But i'm working on that and finding her a permanent companion because both times I had to sepaate her from the other horses were really hard on her so i'd rather keep her alone until i'm 100% sure the other horse/pony is staying permanently. I feel it's a bit cruel to give her a friend and then take it away when she's just gotten used to them.