I'm doing voluntary work at a stable in my region (Montreal, QC, Canada). They have a 12 year old Gypsie stallion, not sure if he had been ridden before. The first time I saw him being ridden, he stopped and the rider (trainer's son) gave him a light tap with the crop. He bucked and threw down his rider.
I saw a young woman who works there longing him. He worked willingly (he needs a lot of tongue clicking just to get him to trot) for a few minutes then stopped facing her. She had a long whip but didn't touch the horse at all but still when she did put pressure on the horse to get him to move forward he reared up (I've learned since he was shown to rear on command). The second time he did that she touched him with the whip in no way hurting him (no harder than when you throw the rope in your join-up video) and he did a cabriole or close to (never been train to do that to my knowledge). She got him to do three of those. At no time did I feel the horse become aggressive. She stopped there and the horse was still calm and unworried.
I was told that they had a rodeo guy ride him, got thrown down too. The trainer's rode him again and got thrown down and almost kicked when he hit the ground. I can see that the horse has progressed in learning how to buck, he's doing a 180 degrees now on the third jump (first time he only turned his head to the left when he landed). This time the rider fell behind the horse and came close to be kicked in the head, then the horse took a few step forward and kicked again, and walked a few steps forward again and turned to look at the rider.
The trainer claims that this stallion is aggressive and wanted him to be put down, the owner refused. I'm glad she did.
I'm totally unafraid of horses, I've worked with a few that were aggressive including a stallion that people were afraid of when I was young since he was charging everybody, and other horse that would kick or bite people that weren't careful around them.
So I took this stallion, who in my opinion, is not being aggressive yet, only dominant, and I took him to a round pen. I couldn't make it run, I'm in Quebec and the ground is frozen and it's too slippery for me to try to get him to run. So I gave him a good rub on the withers, got him to move sideways a bit, move his haunches and asked him to give his legs rubbing his withers each time he gave me something. He did real fine. I played with him like that for 15 minutes. And he started to follow me around, when he stopped to sniff at something I'd call him and he did come to me most of the time.
I'd like to lunge him without him rearing up or anything not because I'm concerned but because I'd like to train him and I want him to move forward when we ask him too. So my question is, how do I get him to move forward when he stops facing me? Knowing that if we put pressure he tends to rear up. Once he faces you up, he'll turn and keep facing you if you try to go on his side.(I don't mind getting real close to him if I need to, even when he rears up, I'm not good or young enough to do rodeo though but I can read him and know if he'll get aggressive or not)
I'm a french canadian, sorry if my english is not so good.
Pierre Gagnon
Hi Pierre. Your English is much better than my French. Clearly you want to help this horse but I must start with words of warning. Whilst I too do not fear horses I respect them for their power, strength & speed. Stallions are dangerous & must be respected. This one seems to have been subjected to a confusing mix of training & before getting further involved I have some questions. Does this stallion serve mares? Why does the owner have so many different people handle him in so very different ways? Does the owner handle him & if so what is their attitude to this horse? This stallion is developing dangerous habits & you indicate you want to use Monty's methods with him. However, you do not have a safe environment to do so. Until I have more information, answers, I am not going to encourage you to continue. You will not do this horse any favours if he injures you. I look forward to hearing from you soon so we all can help you with this horse. In the meantime be very careful not to put you or this horse into dangerous situations. Cheers, Jo.
Hi Jo,
"Your English is much better than my French" Thanks, if you ever come to Montreal I'd happily teach you.
"I respect them for their power, strength & speed" No worries I do too.
"Stallions are dangerous & must be respected" I believe any horse has the potential to become dangerous and I respect all of them. A small poeny almost took my nose off once (because of a mistake of mine though)
Does this stallion serve mares? Yes and his being very gentle at it.
Why does the owner have so many different people handle him in so very different ways? They are nice people and wants the horse to have a job. They have a horse show (a bit like Cavalia but not as professional yet) They also rescue horses and integrate them into the show.
Does the owner handle him & if so what is their attitude to this horse? From what I heard the owner does ride very often and she certainly does ride or work this stallion
"be very careful not to put you or this horse into dangerous situations" I am very being very careful Jo. This not a hot-blooded stallion and so far I've been working him a few times always in free hand with no pressure and I get him to do a kind of join-up by doing something he likes very much every time he does something that I ask him, like I call him and he comes, ask for his feet, get him to backup by hand signal, very simple things like that and when he does I rub his whiskers pretty hard and he totally loves that. After I do one or two of these kind of things he'll follow me around everywhere in the round pen. Can't ask him to run though because it's slippery.
Thanks for your concern and help!
Hi Jo,
I reread my comment and found a big mistake, sorry:
"Does the owner handle him ..." The answer should have been:
From what I heard the owner DOESN'T ride very often and she certainly DOESN'T ride or work this stallion.
Thanks!
Hi Pierre. Thank you for your answers. It seems to me that people are mis-reading this stallion. His reactions to you are encouraging. This horse needs consistency, being handled calmly by a person he trusts. He needs to be given a reason to involve this person in his life. My suggestions start with using Monty's road map - going right back to the very basics & working to build a strong bond with him. Go at his pace, progressing when he is ready. Only work when you have a safe surface to do it on. That does not need to be a round pen. I worked with foals in the field with their herd supporting them & also in a large stable with other foals, to get them to give their feet, lead & be comfortable with my presence. What would you like to achieve? Does the owner have aspersions for this horse? What you do need to do is impress on everyone who comes into contact with this horse is that they must use the same roadmap. Keep us posted on your progress. Remember that little baby steps often give huge advances. Good luck, Jo.
Hi Jo,
Thanks for your reply.
"It seems to me that people are mis-reading this stallion" That's my feeling too. I think he's simply opinionated.
"working to build a strong bond with him. Go at his pace, progressing when he is ready." My plan exactly. I want to have fun with him, not fight him. And I think he'll find something that he's good at and that he'll want to show if we give him a chance.
I'd like to be able to do a real Join-Up with him. I was a bit puzzled by him facing the young lady (I think you'd call her a stable hand), I thought it was his way to put a stop to her lunging him. When she tried to move on his side to move him he just turn with her. I don't want to confront him or have him learn to control us this way, so my question is: How can I get him to move forward when he does that?
"What would you like to achieve?" If I can do a proper Join-Up with him and be able to lunged him properly I would have fun working with him so he can do something for the horse shows that they do.
"Does the owner have aspersions for this horse?" (I had to research aspersion, never seen that word before, found this " A false or damaging accusation or insinuation") I know the owner would be happy if the stallion gets a place in their show, and it doesn't need to be ridden. I don't believe they'd want to risk someone riding him again. My guess is if I don't find something for him to do they'll keep him for breeding only.
Thanks Jo!
Pierre
Hi. Aspirations is what you ideally want to achieve. Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult! Language is such a powerful tool, no matter which language you use. So long as you use it well. So, this stallion has a future, no matter what, but you feel he can have an enhanced future - fantastic! Go for it! Do what you can until the weather improves. When he faces you raise your open, extended hand ( like a claw) to move him on. If that fails, use plastic on a stick. Keep us posted so we can give you support. We're here to help. Cheers, Jo.
Hi Jo,
You really wrote aspersions "Does the owner have aspersions for this horse?", I'm not trying to be difficult either, lol!
I know the owner would love it if this stallion could have a part in their show. I'll try the claw and the plastic, he's not easily spooked though. If it doesn't work, I'll keep trying until I find something similar that gets him moving. Thanks for your input, it's greatly appreciated.
We'll see what happens and I'll keep you posted.
Pierre
Hi Pierre,
It's nice to read this thread, lots of information!
Do you have Monty's book "From My Hands To Yours"?
That book could help you build up as much pressure as the situation requires, always with bodylanguage only, always following the communication between species.
In the wild horses often find that there's only one drinking place for all animals around. They have to be able to read the bodylanguage of preditors, otherwise they would never get a drink. The claw Jo describes above is part of the agressive stance of a preditor. If you combine this claw with other signs like "eyes on eyes", going towards the horse's eye, a fierce walk etc., you'll have a whole spectrum of "tools" in your "kit", should you need them. Especially with stallions you need as much as neccessary, as liitle as possible. You don't want to provoke any undesirable behavior.
I think it often helps to try these tools in front of a mirror, to become aware of the impact gestures have. I highly recommend you reading the book and please keep us posted!
The use of plastic on a stick is a great thing as well, build up as much as you need....
Don't forget to take the pressure away as soon as the horse shows the desired behavior, your signs can become softer and softer as you work!
Have fun,
Miriam
All great advice Pierre; just one thing to add - if he is turning in to you when you longling or lunge him it is likely a problem with human positioning. I suggest longlinging would be better than single line lunging for all the reasons given on the video series here and because it will teach him to turn away from you not in towards you. So always be aware of your position and make sure you are not in his way. Good luck :-)
Hi Miriam and Vicci,
Miriam, I don't have this book yet, I was planning to order it soon already. Looking forward to reading it. I'm aware of the signs, like claw, eyes on eyes, fierce walk, etc.. I was puzzling over how to put pressure on his shoulder if he keeps facing you. I think that Jo's suggestion about using a stick or any other device that extend the arm, is the good way to go about it with this horse.
"take the pressure away as soon as the horse shows the desired behavior, your signs can become softer and softer as you work" No worries, I've a pretty good timing. I think that when you're working with horses timing is crucial, knowing when to apply or release pressure comes with it.
Vicci, When the young lady was lunging him I was looking at both her and the horse. I didn't see any issue of her getting in front of the horse with her shoulders or anything. I might have missed it though. The feeling I got was that the horse had learned to control the human by facing him and that he was simply opinionated and wanted to stop trotting in circle. When I will work with him myself, I'll keep in mind my position, thanks!
As for lunging him, I'd prefer to work him free for the moment. I don't have much experience with longlining, I don't think it's the good horse for me to learn it with yet. I'll try to find another horse with more experience so I can learn it. I like this idea a lot, thanks!
Pierre
Hi Perrier, I applaud your efforts. It sounds to me like you can't do a proper Join-Up, because the ground is frozen? If so... I'm concerned: as in Quebec, it will not be till March/April 2015 that things will thaw out.
Also the behavior you are describing to me, shows this Stallion/stud has learned humans are apart of his heard. I work exclusively with horses that are to be put down. This is the number one problem when I work with studs. I almost always get my clients to castrate them. Once a horse learns a behavior they will never forget it. You must incorporate a new behavior around the old and most times always the unacceptable behavior. It is much easier as a gelding will tend to loose interest in herding and his new hormonal change will reenforce all the new learned behaviors as he moves forward in life. I could go on for a whole page as to why my clients want and need a stud. That's another story.
In my-never-to-be-humble-opinion. Get Monty's books and a Dully Halter. Start form the ground up. Try to find some enclosed arena/round pen to work with the horse during this winter. And for the safety of the horse, other horses and people.
Try to get the owner to castrate him. Trust me on this. His job is to make money for the owners and in his condition no matter how good a trainer you are. The horse will revert back to his bad behavior just after you turn him back over to his owner and show trainer. Hence the horse will get put down despite all your good work.
Keep us posted. Wish I could come up there and give you a hand. Remember, all horses start out perfectly behaved. It is us humans that mess them up.
Hi Pierre, I wanted to add something to what Miriam had to say regarding your observation to his (the Stallion) level of sensitivity. If I'm understanding the the thread, the hores seems to less than sensitive. Some what on the cold-blooded side. Again if I'm following you correctly. If so here is my suggestion.
Get a plastic bag on the end of a 6 foot (2 metre) stick. See how he reacts. If he shys away from it then there is your starting point to get him moving. Remember in horse language the one that moves their feet first is the submissive one. You always want your horses to be submissive to all Humans. Humans are the leaders of any horse or herd. If the horse doesn't move, up the stress. Then use the 6 foot (2 metre) stick with multiple plastic bags. Again if the horse doesn't move, add some CD's to the multiple bag stick for light reflective purpose. Finally if the horse doesn't move, get a hand held marine warning horn (it's the size of a pop can). With one hand wiggle the sick and bags and the other blast one quick time with the horn. This has never failed me to get a horse moving.
Then from that point begin to decrease the stress levels/ pressure. By removing horn, then CD's to multiple bags to single bag and finally to you and a Dully Halter. This is all called behavior modification. Your first and foremost objective is to get the horse to stop herding people (being dominate) and bring about to a submissive and partner like attitude. Also, the objective is not to scare the horse. It's just to get his attention and show that you and others handlers are the leader. This will give him a foundation to build trust.
Then you can start working on longlining. Hopefully you can saddle him. Once you got him working well on the ground than it's time to mount him. I would start with a riding dummy before any riders mounts him. He may also need the aid of a Buck-Stopper. Monty sells a great one. If all goes well after that. Then it's time to introduce a rider. Good luck to you, Greg
Hi Greg,
"I'm concerned: as in Quebec, it will not be till March/April 2015 that things will thaw out." Usually April, but you can work on snow, until now it was icy and slippery in the round pen.
The owner won't castrate him, he's simply too valuable for that for stud fees. Besides I don't believe he's dangerous, I simply don't see any signs that he's being aggressive yet. I've been charged and threatened by other horses before and I can read when they mean it or when it's simply bullying on their part.
I like the idea of a plastic bag on a stick that you and Jo have suggested and never thought about using old CD's that way though, great idea, thanks!
"It is us humans that mess them up" So true, and I love it when I can un-mess it up for the horse. It's the best part of what I do. I find it harder to fix the people. ;-)
I'll keep you posted, thanks again!
Pierre
Hi all,
Here's an update on this stallion. He's the most gentle stallion I've worked with so far except for the bucking. He now works well with the lunging and follows me around anywhere I go.
GregG Funny thing to note, he didn't budge with the multiple bags and CDs on the stick, it seemed to annoy him a little at first but not much. What worked with him was when I brought him in the round-pen with a huge ball (40 inches) to play with him. I had him come to me very close to the ball and touch it with his nose. But when I moved the ball slowly half an inch towards him, he went away kicking and broncking a few times. After that he was lunging nicely without the ball in the pen, go figure that one. If the ball is there he's goes away from me as soon as this ball is moving while I take it out of the pen. This ball is the only thing I've seen him react to, and I've tried a lot of things (umbrella, tarp, etc.).
I've put a home made mannequin and got him to buck with it, he did calm down real fast. He's being sent to California for High school training and to take care of the bucking.
Thank you all.
Hi. Thank you for the update. Seems like you have had significant success with this horse. Well done! Let's hope your efforts are supported by the California training. Cheers, Jo.
Hi PierreG and all,
This sounds great! You've done a good job with him, obviously!
It's a pity we cannot post short videos here, I have one of a young Arabian stallion playing with a huge gymnastic ball, which had small sort of handles on it. It's hilarious to see how he has bodycontact with it, sometimes almost sits on it, kicks it away from under his belly. He takes the handles between his teeth and swings it around, then lets it fly away, only to chase after it...
I figured this out with him, because he seemed quite bored, being a stallion and having nobody to play with.
Lots of succes with your young stallion and have fun!
Miriam