Hi Rudi
.
No, I haven't had a need to try it. I just watched the video clip on You Tube though and it looks very effective.
.
It would be great to see a lesson on the Uni about how to make, fit and use one... What do you think?
.
Kind regards,
.
Gen

You have to keep the rope up high enough towards the top of the lip and then tighten up. I have used one before and it has helped. I forgot a couple weeks ago that I had one and got on a 3 yr old colt for his second ride and got bucked off fracturing the tip of a finger and losing the finger nail as well. Wished I would have remembered I had that tool. Hind sight is 20-20 as they say. Live and learn!

Stay safe everyone( including me!),
Stephen

Rudi
Thanks for bring this up I just looked at the video and the cotton rope is on the outside of the upper lip and is tight enough to crease the skin thereby holding it in place
I agree that this would be a great addition to uni
I had to watch parts of the video a few times before I understood how the rope had to be fitted

Cheers and thanks again for the info

I too would like to see a vid that shows how to make and fit a buckstopper. I've looked at the vid a couple of times, but I don't think I would try to fit it without more precise instructions.
I have a 3 year old now, and it would be nice to have this as a backup, in case he starts thinking that bucking is the way to go.

Dear Stephen. Thank you for your advice. Now it worked (in the quiet horse). The other horse has stopped bucking, so I did not yet use it, but it's ready.

I have restarted with the buck stopper in three horses. The first two had initially problems to accept it, the third accepted it the first time. Seeing these horses to accept the device quite easily I wonder why we don't use it for all starters (as well as the artificial rider) instead of risking to be bucked off.

I would love to see video lessons on the Buck Stopper!

Me too. It's different than anything I have ever done with a bucking horse and it looks like it would work.
Well done Dennis, I wached and read about it and did not pick up on the placement, great.

Yesterday I worked with a bucking horse where I had fixed the device too loose and she was able to buck with the head halfway down. Today I put it more tight and it worked.

That's great to hear Rudi. One of my friends has a horse that bucks and she is going to give it a go. I will make sure I mention to her that it can't be too loose.

I agree with you Rudi on using the Buckstopper when first starting the horse. Why risk taking a chance at getting
hurt (Speaking from personal experience. Read my other post above.)

-Stephen

The video that you mentioned Rudi is no longer available on you tube. Just wanted to let everybody know.

Hi Stephen,
How's your finger? Did you ride again since?
Stay safe,
Miriam

Miriam,

The finger is healed and the finger nail is back now. It didn't scare me off of riding again9 Full time horse trainer). In fact only 4 weeks after the accident I was back riding my more trained horses and about 8 weeks later I was back riding some colts (with 30 days riding) I was training for some people. I love working with these young horses to much to let it scare me off. The funny thing is that the day after the accident I went into the pen with the horse that bucked me off and he was following me around like a puppy. That horse also joined up beautiful with me in about 7-10 minutes and followed me all over the round pen both ways walking with very free movement. Always neat when they really join-up well with a person. Makes a persons day. Yes everyone stay safe and have fun. Don't let bad experiences take you away.

-Stephen

Why does a horse buck ?

A discussion about buckstopper in a free forum.

http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137235

Why do horses buck? Among different causes I think there are horses that buck when we require too much of them. It is a kind of solution of a problem for them if they don't know what to do. The problem is that during the training you sometimes come to such a point even if you don't want it. In these horses I find the buck-stopper useful to protect the trainer and to prevent a cronic behaviour. Who has never used it may find it cruel. I think the effect is not much different to an ordinary bit. There is one disadvantage: putting the head down is limited, if you leave it too loose they can buck.
Rudi

When this thread came up I was thinking that maybe a good idea for Uggs. Now my thinking is that it is imperitive. If any forum members have any further comments to add on this i would love to hear their views. In the meantime I will be checking out Monty's book to see if it is possible to make one

I think the buckstopper is a great tool (I have not used it as I don't ride anymore unless its a horse that has one speed - very slow!!) but after thinking it through I don't think I'm keen to use it on starters.

It is important that starters go through the "testing" process so that they can see that the girth/saddle won't hurt them, they can then make the choice not to buck anymore. Otherwise they are learning not to buck because the buckstopper causes a little discomfort i.e. negative reinforcement.

I think the buckstopper is used when a horse has developed a self rewarding behaviour and as a last resort, i.e. the horse bucks - you fall off - result!

It is interesting that Monty refuses to sell buckstoppers as he is concerned about them being used incorrectly but I think in a committed forum like this it would be really good to get a detailed discussion/demonstration from him about how it works and his thinking.

After reading Monty's chapter on the bucking horse and the buck stopper in "From My Hands to Yours" I have come to the depressing realization that I have unknowingly turned my Uggs into the remedial bucker over the 13 years I have had him. Over that time I have not managed to ride him consistently which is what he really needed especially after I first purchased him as a three year old to help on my Dad's property with his pretty wild cattle. He was there for four years and he loved the cattle work and was generally pretty good for a young horse as he went weeks in between rides and my Dad kept feeding him lucerne hay in my absences. However he did throw me off badly once in a similar fashion as he did the other day. He used to buck like a bronco when I lunged him with the saddle so I stopped lunging him and just rode him which was a mistake in retrospect. I couldn't ride him enough as it was such a hectic time for me. I had heaps of fencing, painting etc to do as the property was very run down, my Dad needed lots of attention as he was very demented and every month or so I drove the 1,500km trip back to Melbourne to be with my family and tend my animals here for a couple of weeks. Uggs was brutalised by two men in my absence once when they tried to get a torn rug off him - ear twitched, roped etc. so that didn't help and he has been spooked easily ever since. Over the 10 years(where have they gone!) I have had him in Melbourne he still hasn't been ridden consistently - my work load, Tricka, grandchildren, his own injuries (12months out to be nursed with a gashed stomach after some guys chased him over a barbwire fence on their motor bikes -nice and more recently almost 2 years off due to lameness in his front hooves- undershot?) and my own injuries (broken nose and broken knee cartlage - Uggs, back injury - Tricka) so now I have an old ( just 1) remedial bucker on my hands. He has only tossed me off about 6 times and after each buster I have always managed to get straight back on ( thank goodnes no further bucks at the time) but it has made me nervous when riding him. After each time I have been tossed off he has had time off due either to my injuries or just reluctance - hence remedial bucker syndrome encouraged. I don't think the buck stopper is an answer either as I am inexperienced with its use and he may spook badly with it - he still gets scared easily. I would hate to send him off to someone else no matter how good a reputation they have as I am the only person who has ever ridden or handled him except for the two idiot men who roped and terrified him. I am thinking of contacting Lynn Mitchell (Monty's Certified Instructor who lives fairly close to Melbourne) to see if she could help, otherwise I am thinking of just going back to basics and doing those things I should have done 14 years ago. Lots of ground work and lunging with the saddle on and the dually halter, long lines etc. and more consistent riding. A club member who watched my demise the other day said "Wow - he was certainly determined to get you off why on earth do you ride him when you have others to ride" Perhaps I should think carefully about that as Tricka and Nicky need me too. I ride him because I love him and he usually loves getting our hacking around our riding club with my kelpie. My kelpie and I love it too and it has been so great to have his hooves OK and have him ridable again. Sorry for thinking out aloud here and rambling on!! Any advice would be welcome even if it is to tell my I am nuts.

Dear Maggie.
I have a fairly good experience with the buck stopper in different horses. I am sure you can somehow correct his behaviour but -from my opinion- he will remain a horse bucking under certain circumstances. If he has to be ridden it should be done by professionals.
Rudi

Hi Maggie

I admire your thought processes and I can see its been tough to get where you are today. I think getting Lyn in would be great - she can be an objective pair of eyes and support you with technique etc. In the meantime, I do suggest that you don't ride him, its not safe, but going back to basics until Lynn can help you stabilise him is sound self advice! Good luck Maggie, keep us updated and stay safe :-)

Hi Maggie and all

Geez its sad to hear about your history with Uggi, I certainly admire your perseverance with him. It is a problem when they learn reward from dumping the rider. My Horse Frodo has also learnt this although he has only bucked me off 3 times in 5 years, he is always willing to give it a go. I am wanting to try the buck stopper with him as i have had his back and teeth checked and it is not that. I got him semi ferral and backed him using join up method from the start which worked amazingly with him. However not sure if it was my nerves or what but every time we went into canter he would try little bucks. One day he timed it perfectly while we were on a downward slope and he got me off. I got right back on and we rode back on the trail away from home to try to make it non rewarding for him. The next time he did it from a standstill. I had stopped at the back of the group of riders to look at something on the ground with loose reins. He just went into a fit and buck me off trying to run after the herd. Luckily I held on to the reins so he didn't get to go back to the group and i effectively tried to school him from the ground to the dually halter before getting back on and following the group. He seemed real grumpy but settled after a while. Now I feel he tries to buck either every time we go into canter or if he spooks at something he usually puts in a few bucks. Also if i ask him to do something he doesn't want to do he will often buck. Luckily he also bucks sometimes on the lunge so that will be the place to start with the buck stopper. I would love to see a uni lesson on it, i have Montys book but it only says so much about how to do it. Any info on how to actually set it up would be great.
Best of luck to you.

Thanks so much Viccihh for your comments. Helene it seems that we share a very similar problem. Your horse does sound like my Uggs. I always ride him a bit cautiously too which I am sure does not help. From now on I am going to try to de-spook him as much as possible as he is old enough to know better. I am re-surfacing my menage so that we can start to get serious for the first time in his life. No more riding him with kid gloves - I have always tried to stay as still as possible in the saddle so that he doesn't get upset but now I have started moving around - slowly little by little - also tossing things passed him into my ute etc. He used to buck like a bronco under the saddle when I lunged him but was OK usually to ride so I stopped lunging him. Now, 13 years on, I lunged him again this morning before I rode him. No bucks on the lunge and he lunged well so that was pleasing - he was also pretty good while I was riding him but he has been like this for years. One bad episode then long periods of good behaviour. Like your fellow he doesn't always buck and can go fom months without bucking but then when he decides to he doesn't stop till you are off. To-day we had a little break through as he did go to buck and I quickly turned him which caused me to lose my stirrup but then he stopped for me and even allowed me to retrieve the stirrup - this would have been enough to spook him and have him throw me previously so ...
Yes I too was disappointed that Monty says so little about the buck stopper in his book and I don't feel competent to try it especially given Uggs has been so touchy around the head ever since the idiot guys got him. I am fearful that if I try a buck stopper he would just freak out and I would do more damage than good. Let me know how you get on - a video on this one would be good.

Hi Maggie

I read up again last night about the buck stopper. It seems you have to use it for up to 3 weeks correctly with a remedial bucker in order to kick the habit. This is quite an undertaking, since you also have to use a mannequin rider and know how to attach it properly. Also it seems you must start on the lunge. My boy only bucks sometimes on the lunge out of freshness, so am not sure this would be enough to teach him. I am certainly apprehensive to try it given the fact the Monty strongy emphasises needing experience with all of it. I had thought today I may just try to put him to work on a circle every time he tries to buck therein giving him extra work every time he bucks-immediately. I have tried this before when we were playing polo crosse and I felt it seemed to help a bit to discourage him from bucking but didn't give it enough time as he went off work for a bit after. I am hacking him out this weekend and will try this first. I Will let you know how it goes. Good luck with your boy! I am sure working with him consistently, daily will certainly help you and Uggs a lot.

The buck stopper and the associated training sounds very complicated that is why I decided it wasn't for me and Uggs. I am sure it would spook him. Turning in a circle helps if you can pre-empt the buck. Unfortunately they fairly quickly learn to spin into a tight circle themselves and this is sometimes as difficult to manage as the buck. Good luck with taking your boy out at the week-end. Do hope he behaves himself - stay safe.

I read about the buck stopper in Monty's book, however I cannot seem to find any video footage of it in action.

I have a 10 year old Westphalian Dressage horse who is lovely in every way, except in the school.

I have had his back checked, his teeth done and he was 5 stage vetted when I purchased him and passed.

He bucks mostly on the right rein and mostly towards the gate. He gets himself so worked up about it.

I tried jumping him over a low pole to see if it would be a useful outlet for him but he bucked me straight off in mid air.

He seems to get over-excited by anything, including doing some lateral work at trot and will often skip or bunny hop if he anticipates doing something more advanced.

I gave him a few months off to de-stress him and just hacked him out, where he is fine. I canter and gallop and have even popped him over a log a few times...No bucking!! As soon as I took him back into the school after his break, he bucked the worst he has ever done before. Throwing his head about, leaping and legs going in every direction.

I ride him in a loose ring snaffle happy mouth bit with a peanut roller in the centre and although he can pull me a bit I know I can still bring him back if I need to. Despite this he hates being checked back.

I tried riding him in the dually yesterday and it made no difference, he still bucked with me.

I would love to give the buck stopper a go but have never actually seen how it works, although I fully understand the principle of how it works. I will continue to work with him and see how he gets on but if I had a way of making his life and mine safer, I would certainly like to give it a try.

With physical issues being ruled out it seems there is a common trait of using bucking as an evasion tactic. What are our horses telling us? Maybe it would be a good idea to try less exciting and demanding exercises in the school to try to cause the horse to enjoy it by feeling he is understanding what we ask and doing well at it. Then build on that.

Hey rockstar I think there is a video on the Facebook group for the buckstopper. You might look there. Also does your horse like dressage? We bought an appendix dressage horse 12 years ago who was "crazy " turned out she hated dressage and loved jumping..not crazy anymore. Just a thought. She even still will get snarky when asked for dressage exercises...good luck
Paula

The video:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=345275605582372&set=o.115522818628261&type=2&theater

You have to be a member of the Facebok group. See the discussion under "Facebook".
Rudi

Hi guys,
Thanks for the comments.
Today I hacked him out and he was fine, I jumped a new log twice, he was fine, I galloped him up a hill, he was fine.
I got him in our field and had put up a little fence with some logs and branches. He stopped, I encouraged him, took him around and he jumped it, perfectly. I gave him a big fuss and took him around again. Perfect again. 'One more time' I thought.
Oh dear! Bucked mid air and on landing. I managed to stay on this time. I went around again, he was all worked up, cantering sideways, bucking before we even got near. Calmed him down and did it again. Bucked before the jump, overjumped it bucked mid-air, bucked on landing. Tried trotting in, lost impusion and became evasive so turned him around and cantered in, more bucking fly jumping and excitement. Finally managed to get him to jump it with the least amount of bucking possible and called it a day.
So frustrated. This is how he gets with the ground work in the school. He is so over excited. Such a shame as he jumps so well and does such lovely flatwork. I am so disheartened. Usually horses improve as you get them used to it, he got worse!

Thanks for the links to the buckstopper by the way, I will go and have a look now.
I really appreciate the feedback, thanks for listening
Jen x

Oh Jen - Your problem sounds so much worse than mine! Not sure if I would persevere with your horse! Stay safe!

Hi Jen
I seem to ask this a lot, but does your horse like to jump? Is there possibly a tack issue? Just wondering. I do know if a horse doesn't like what he s doing bucking resistence is their default. Also what about stopping when he's good. I know we want to go for one more but I have learned that there is a small voice inside that tells us this is enough. If I listen I have greater success the next time. If I don't, well bad behavior. And silly as it sounds, I will often ask my horse. Somehow there is communication if I take the time to listen. I know it sounds strange but it works for me and my girls.
Good luck be safe
paula

Hi guys,

Thanks Maggie, he is a really sweet horse loves to please just gets himself so stressed out. I don't think he had a very good life, he was a dressage horse at a yard in Germany. No turnout, no hacking out - just Dressage, every day, horse walker or stable. Poor chap. He is so desperate to do the right thing.
I have had his teeth checked by a top equine veterinary dentist and an EDT has had 2 visits in the last couple of months. He had his very own saddle made for him and lots of plush saddle pads which I checked were ok to use with the master saddler who came and did his fitting and altered the saddle to fit him. He has also had the physio come and do his back a few times. I am off to spend a week with Kelly Marks as of Sunday and then the following week I am doing a sports massage course and hopefully later in the year I will be accepted to University for an Equine Physio course (I am currently a Vet Nurse) so I will be able to keep my horses in comfort all the time.
Anyway new episode in the continuing saga for those of you who haven't fallen asleep by now.
I took him to Milton Keynes Event Centre yesterday evening with my fiance and his little mare. At first he stopped at every thing, then bucked on the way in so we 'couldn't possibly jump it as we were unbalanced' but I had an idea.
I used a distraction by clicking at him (like Dressage riders do to encourage Piaffe) he obviously recognised it as he piaffed into the jump without bucking and leapt over it like it had 5 feet of iron spikes under it. A few of these at each new jump and finally we were more confident. Then we decided that we liked it and despite having a few bucks of excitement here and there, we decided that we want to be a cross country horsie!! He loved it, galloped all over the fields jumped everything in his path even when he wasn't sure I patted him clicked my tongue and over he went.
I am so happy for him, I know that this isn't quite resolved and I am sure there will be more huge bucks to come and more stops etc but it's progress.
Here is one of the better moments where he jumps like a good boy (note he likes to do a flying change before jumping...funny lad!!)

Excuse the dodgy filming my fiance was on his horse (and yes he does carry a whip and no he doesnt use it but the mare will THROW him into fences if he doesn't have it in his hand)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151266588626750&set=vb.646161749&type=2&theater

Paula, thank you for the encouragement and the advice, I know it sounds strange but when I end a session early because he has done the right thing he mopes. He is a real 'work horse' and loves to be ridden and please his rider. He actually slows down on the way home when we ride out almost like he is disappointed we are going home, but turn him away for a longer ride and he perks up. Strange boy!
Anyway I must apologise for my fragmented sentence structure and poor grammar but I am writing these comments inbetween cooking supper for my fiance so if it doesn't make too much sense you know why lol
Thanks again for the comments, it's great of you all to offer support and very much appreciated
Jen x

Wow! well done Jen. Tried to check out your photo but the message came up that it was unavailable at present so I will try again later. Could be my old computer. Take care and have fun

I had the same problem.

Ok, I have shared it on the Equus page as I think my privacy settings on facebook won't allow me to share that with the general public.

Try the Equus Uni closed group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/equusonlineuni/?ref=ts&fref=ts

Jen x

Wow Jen, i love the thought process of tapping in to his old training with the clicks to help with his new life - lovely bit of lateral thinking. He sounds an amazing character! I know you will enjoy the course next week, keep us posted!

I saw the both Joey jumping (very sweet) and Rudis buck-stopper on the FB group. Thanks for the info on that. I have a question about the buck-stopper. It is recommended as a last resort I know, therefore it is recommended to use it with a dummy rider fist and never with a real person on-board. So if ones horses does not buck on the lunge or long-lines or even with the dummy rider (not that I have tried it) but does buck regularly out on the trail then how would you ever use the buck-stopper tool?

The horse has to accept first the device. Some horses will try to rub it away. So you will start without a rider anyway. Second, the horse has to learn what happens during bucking. I could immagine that your horse will try to buck in the roundpen or a bigger closed and secure place if he is full of energy and you send him "far" away. The artificial rider is another option, but not that easy to construct and to fix, that would be another project. Finally you could put the buckstopper also with a rider on the trail.
Reading your text I find it strange that your horse is bucking only on the trail. Maybe he is unsecure outside? It may help to go out with him by foot, without rider first?
Rudi

Hi Rudi, Thanks yes i have started going jogging with my horses on the dually. It is quite fun and I can do my dually schooling along the way too. I think and hope it will help build their confidence in me as a leader and therefore also help for later if I wish to ride out with them alone. I think I will try it on the lunge and see what happens. I would not say he is a nasty bucker but a cheeky one for sure.:) Will keep you posted. Thanks

Hi Rudi

Ok I think I am ready to try the buck stopper. I have the equipment and thankfully have seen your video on how to put it on. However I would like to hear how it worked for you? I have had the vet thoroughly check my horses back and teeth and also my new riding instructor has seen us in action and she says she can not see any sign of soreness or pain in the way he goes but can see he has a cheeky nature. I rode him out a few times recently and he was bucking a lot and using opportunities like directly after a jump or whilst going down a small hill. He was particularly doing when I asked him to canter or to do something he didn't want like leaving the group of horses for a short distance to go our own way. So I think it is a rebellious thing. How did you achieve success with your horses with this devise? Did you use a dummy rider? I was thinking how do I encourage him to buck in the round pen so he can get used to the feel of the buck-stopper. Eagerly awaiting to hear from you. Best regards Helene. P.S my teacher said I have to just sit back, pull his head up and ride him forward though the bucking. This is fine but i am concerned he will catch me unawares at some point and I don't particularly want a back injury;)Since he has already bucked me off 3 times over the last few years I believe he has sadly learn t there is something to gain from dislodging his rider.

Helene, your riding instructor is not being very helpful here!! It is dangerous to "just pull his head up and ride through it" - for one, pulling on the bit involves causing pain in his mouth; so why would he co-operate? Have you tried cantering him in his saddle without a rider either loose in a round pen or on longlines? Does he buck then? I'm interested in the fact that you have noticed he does it after a jump and down hill - two occasions where he is on a downward trajectory? Is the saddle slipping? Are his feet sore? You can ride with a buckstopper but I would personally want to eliminate EVERY

oh heck hit enter too soon sorry.... every possibility, then you need to use buckstopper without rider first I would think. However, having never used one, only watched Monty use it and listened to Kelly Marks talk about using it in Pie I will bow out at this point and look forward to hearing from Rudi :-)

Hi Vicci, Thanks for your input. I am pretty convinced he is not in pain or discomfort of any sort. I believe this to be a learned behavior and seems to be more like monkeying around. Perhaps testing me. Even though I have used the join up procedures from the start with him, he has challenged me in the past on the ground too. I was wanting to add on my message yesterday, where does one draw the line between a remedial bucker and perhaps just a naughty Pony? Interesting question. of-course horses buck a bit when excited out on the trail, but more than the odd bit of exuberance is really quite dangerous. My horse does not generally buck with his saddle while long-lining in the round pen, so am not sure how to approach the buck-stopper or how I would encourage him to buck in the round pen. His bucking seems to be habitual out on the trail. I would so love to cure him of this so we can have more fun together. Thanks and regards.

Dear Helene
I am reading your message only today. The steps I a go are the following:
As you suggested I would try to make him buck in the roundpen.
1. Do some exercise without the horse to learn how to make the necessary knots quickly.
2. Put the Dually and then the the buck stopper as first measure without fixing it to the saddle and see how the horse reacts. Sometimes they try to rub it away.
3. When the horse is more comfortable with the buck stopper add the saddle and immediatly fix the buck stopper at the saddle. This is easy for a Western saddle. For the English saddle Monty is using a quite difficult system in his book. Personally I just fix it at little ring most of English saddles have (even when it is situated not perfectly in the middle of the saddle). The distance to the buck stopper should not be too long.
4. Send the horse "far" away to make him buck. He will only try and immediatly feel that it is uncomfortable. If bucking is possible the line to the saddle is too long. You can repeat that two or three times on different days, maybe also on a bigger place.

Putting an artificial rider is not easy, you need a dummy and a saddle and -the most difficult part- a system of fixation. The dummy must remain in place also during bucking. So for the moment I would leave that project away.

Once the horse has learned that bucking is uncomfortable you can gradually go ahead. Ride him with the buck stopper in the roundpen, on a bigger field and then on trails. The big disadvantage in this part is that the horse can lower the head only to a certain degree. One solution is a "pseudo buck stopper" as discribed in Monty's book. I have never used it.

Keep us informed how things are going on.
Kind regards.

Rudi

I'm going to get kicked off this site now?....
I wasn't going to comment, but oh, those poor horses. There are 4 reasons that horses buck. No one seems to be recommending that this be researched to any quantifiable degree? A "buck stopper" would be the way to go (I guess?)if the only other alternative is the "meat wagon". The buck stopper is absolutely not for the novice horseman or for the uninitiated. Monty himself has warned of this!! Otherwise it simply becomes a "twitch" and of course it is, as defined by purpose.
It is painful for the horse, to varying degrees depending on how it is used and applied.
All kidding aside, try putting a nice soft thin samsonbraid under your upper lip and tie it around very gently above your ears to the back of your head to hold it there. Do this very very gently, now leave it there for 10 to 20 minutes...how does that feel? No part of a horse is more replete with nerves that the head and mouth.
Why not try to start this horse over, I mean literally start him over, with a very patient gentle training method. I won't suggest any one's methods in particular, but if one has ruled out extremely thoroughly any physical problems or conditions then that stands to be one of the kindest and most logical approaches? Obviously its a personal value judgement, but aren't most things in life?
One thing I would consider as well, when getting an assessment/opinion on ones own health or that of a one's child haven't many of us gotten a "second medical" opinion. Even to have a mechanic look at you car?...My point?....I would get a second opinion re physical ailments as well, before doing something drastic.
The world is full of scary stories of people having been misdiagnosed. I have personally seen many cases of very well intended vets inadvertently (lets hope) making the wrong diagnosis on horses and other animals...just saying....good luck with this.

Cheers,

Paul

By the way, starting a horse over literally from "scratch" isn't something my friend in the psyche ward came up with...just kidding here....lol.

It is "one" tried and proven method for solving many problems including bucking. And of course, the horse progresses exponentially more quickly than a "green" horse ever would in the re-training.
The key here being patience and gentleness and really knowing the horse. This is so important and never seems to be emphasized enough. Horses have personalities, quirks, foibles, likes, dislikes, habits, temperament and psychological problems as varied as people it seems.
I am not saying or implying that horses are "self-aware", but, I am saying that they are very complex animals and are very thoughtful and intelligent thinkers and are simply not given credit for being so. They are very social creatures with an hierarchical structure with a very clearly (to them) defined method of communication, which once studied and learned becomes an amazing tool in the training/learning process.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of horse owners just treat them like would a lawnmower or a car that needs to be repaired.

Hi Rudi, Many thanks for that. I started today with a join up, as Monty recommends in his book, one should do at least 3 join up sessions first.I haven't done a join up with him for a long time. This rebellious behavior also was apparent during the join up. He kept on demanding to come in although i kept him out and going at the canter mostly, every time I changed his direction he would kick up at me with his back legs quite strongly. I got the signals and follow up however so think its all good. I have a question about your buck-stopper design. On your diagram according to the colors it seems as if the piece of rope which goes under the lip is the same piece that goes over as the brow band. I had assumed the piece from the lip would go up the cheeks and over the poll like a bridal and the brow band would be a separate piece of rope added. Can you clarify this? I also seem to only be able to get approximately 6mm cotton cord. Do you think this would work too? Montys book is not to specific when it comes to the finer details.

Many thanks and regards from Botswana

Helene

Rudi just another quick question. Did your horses naturally buck on the lunge as well as with saddle and rider? Or how did you encourage them to buck in order to experience the buck-stopper in your round pen? Thanks a million!

Dear Helene
Sorry, you are absolutely right concerning the diagram. There is an error. I will correct it and send it on Facebook. I would try the 6 mm cord.
Kicking during join-up. I usually put more pressure when they kick to tell them that I don't like it.
Bucking of my horses: They bucked with the saddle, with the artificial rider and with a real rider, with and without lunge.
Rudi

Dear Paul
I understand your concerns. Before using the system I hesitated for a long time. After some experience you realize that there is no cruelty. The animals accept the device like a mouthpiece. There is no irritation of the mucosa at all. You may consider a mouthpiece already as a cruel thing, you might be right. On the other hand there is a risk of the rider when the horses buck.
I think this is a very important discussion. We should always control critically what we are doing and it must be possible to have different opinions (without being kicked out of the forum).
Rudi

Many thanks Rudi, I will give it a go. i did second join up this morning. No kicking at me this time and the signals came much stronger and faster than yesterday. Great! I will do a join up again tomorrow and then give the buck stopper a go. Will keep you posted:)

Hey Rudi! You are going to laugh! Now I can't get my horse to buck ha ha. Well in the round pen that is:)So I tried the buck stopper this morning. After doing 3 join up sessions over the last 3 days as Monty recommends in his book, my horse has been a lot more respectful and quieter which is great. As I said in previous posts he does not usually buck on the lunge or in the round pen. So I tried to give him the best chance to buck so he could feel the buck stopper.I gave him a little extra food, used a western saddle which is heavier and he is not used to,and even tied up the second (back)girth on the western saddle under his belly which he has never felt before, all in the hope he would buck a bit. No luck! He quickly felt comfortable with the buck-stopper in his mouth and was quite relaxed. He cantered around happily on both reins. So I was thinking the next step would be to ride him with it in the school. He occasionally bucks in the school. My horse is a dominant character gets used to things pretty quickly. He doesn't get silly about things. I have done a lot of desensitizing, such as umbrellas, plastic bags, walking on plastic tarps etc all quite successfully. I think the main thing is that he doesn't panic when the buck-stopper comes into play not so? I think he will cope with it so am considering riding him with it in the school. Any thoughts? Look forward to hearing from you and have a great day!

Good job. Keep us informed.

ok so I tried the buck-stopper in the school this morning. I found it did help. My boy seemed quite surprised that his usual tactic was not working. I am quite certain that the reason he bucks is a way of expressing himself in saying he doesn't want to do what I ask. In the passed I have pulled him up when he bucked and slowed down which of course is rewarding. Although he can sure move when he wants to he is a little lazy by nature. So if i ask for canter in the school he will often buck as he knows it has unsettled me in the passed and therefore he doesn't have to do it. So i am going to continue with the buck-stopper in the school for a couple of weeks until he looses interest in the tactic. This morning we managed to canter around and do several transitions and after experimenting he laid off the bucking. I would say however still be careful as some horses may get worried by it so would maybe need more introduction in the round-pen. I felt that my horse was really not to bothered by it, so I risked going straight on-board in the school afer one try on the lunge. I feel it did really help and my horse was not distressed at all. I will keep you posted on the progress:) happy training!

Good to hear that it works. How did you fix it to the saddle?
Rudi

Hi Rudi, I just tied a string from the one D ring on the pommel to the other D ring and then fixed the buck-stopper rope to that using the same quick release knot. Today I went for a quiet out-ride with my friend. I put the buck-stopper in place as I wanted the training we started to continue should he try to buck. I felt it really did help. He tried his usual bucking when we went for a short canter but stopped pretty quickly. We had a several nice canters after that with no attempts to buck. Towards the end of the ride I had to intervene with some dogs which were loose and they wanted to attack my dog who was with us. Another dog from inside the nearby yard came running and jumped against the big metal gate making a huge noise. Understandably my horse spooked quite strongly. Just after I pulled him up he put in a couple of bucks. I felt the buck-stopper immediately come into play and he stopped as soon as he felt it. I don't want to recommend that everyone should go on to use this tool as I understand it is only to be used in certain circumstances, however I have to say it seems to be working for me. I am going to continue with it for a couple of weeks to see if I can break the habit. I will keep you posted on the progress. Many thanks for your support!

Just read this as I have been really busy these last few weeks.

Joey has had a short time off and as a result his bucking has gotten worse. He now bucks out of the school too.

My fiance rode him on Sunday and he bucked continuously on canter, getting more and more worked up as he went.
He will bronc now and really put his back into it when he bucks. I think I will be off to the hardware store to buy some cord to make a buckstopper. I will try to video the process and see how it goes.

Really deflating when some horses just don't know a good thing when they have it!

Hi Rockstar

Oh dear, I'm sorry to hear that things are not progressing, I was hopeful that you had turned a corner with poor Joey. First, a bit of constructive advice if you will allow me: you have a tendency to put human attributes on to your horse and this can interfere with your relationship. "He mopes....deflating when they don't know a good thing..." etc etc. These are human values and can prevent us stepping back and really looking at what is going on. Second, you are right that his background is of concern - at 10 years old he should have been working towards his prime as a dressage horse - something clearly went wrong and that's why he was sold (the market place is sadly littered with ex-dressage horses and many have problems, though not all of course!) Third, before you embark on a buckstopper I strongly suggest that you get his back x-rayed/MRI scanned for kissing spine; I appreciate its expensive but it could be an issue that needs looking at; it cant be found without scanning. Fourth, again, before you embark on a buckstopper and after all else has been eliminated, I recommend that you get a trainer in and, as Paul suggested, restart Joey from the very beginning. Please keep us posted, and finally, for gods sake PLEASE stop riding him :-) Your life and your fiance's life is important - it is dangerous to ride him.

Hi all. So just a progress report. I hacked out yesterday, several canters, no attempts to buck. I schooled today, also no bucking. He has no issue with me putting the buck-stopper on either, he accepts it just as the bridal. So I think it is really working. I am going to continue with it for a while still. Happy days! Just a side note though, one does have to pay attention as he can not really put his head down, so like when I come to halt, sometimes my horse likes to stretch his head down, so I have to keep a rein contact to prevent him from doing this and hitting the buck-stopper. Also it appears the cotton rope works just as well, however it has more give in it that nylon or plastic so would have to be fastened a little tighter I guess. Good luck!