I would appreciate help addressing something someone said on a horse-related forum. Input/corrections/information on these issues would be greatly appreciated, as I wish to respond in a kind way to the person with good information.
"I would never let a dually war bridle anywhere near any of my horses. It is designed to put vice like pressure on the part of the horse's nose where the bone stops and the cartilage starts. They send horses confusing messages, a rope halter puts pressure on the poll, a dually war bridle puts pressure on the poll and the nose, so the horse gets pressure from the front and from behind.
Their design also doubles the pressure on the nose that the horse puts on the halter. Imagine if some cretin tied a horse up with a dually war bridle, 450kg horse pulls back, and gets 900kg of pressure on the sensitive part of its nose."
I'll add another criticism someone else made. She said her horse had been in one of the Join-Up demos with Monty, for help with loading. She said the horse did learn to load well and quickly, and she was impressed with that. However she said afterward (next day?), her horse was extra-tender at the poll. Would this be a common side-effect? Does it indicate excess force was used? Obviously I don't know for sure if she was telling a true story but her tone was genuine and straightforward, and overall she was complimentary to Monty, which leads me to think her report of the poll problem was truthful.
As a side-note, I stumbled onto this forum which is very unrelated to me or where I live, and found myself in a heavy discussion over Join-Up. I'm trying to find my way through to talking about these concerns in a way that draws people in, but it's not easy!
QUOTE:"Imagine if some cretin tied a horse up with a dually war bridle, 450kg horse pulls back, and gets 900kg of pressure on the sensitive part of its nose"
That is like saying: "we should not allow bits in horses mouths, because imagine some cretin pulling at the reins with all their might."
Dually halters are neither designed nor meant for tying up horses with anymore than bits are designed to be pulled with force. But, sure, it is a possibility if you're a "cretin". ;) (Or just plain ignorant.)
I wouldn't know what to say to this person, because he/she (I'll just go with "she") seems to have made up her mind already, what with the "war bridle" and all. (Or did I miss something in the tack shop? ;) )
It might be fun, though, to ask if she has in mind to use the Dually halter this way on her horses, or if she thinks it will magically start to abuse her horses' noses on their own accord. Why else is she so afraid of using it?
It's almost always in the hands of the user - not in the equipment itself!
I am sorry to see that some has to make "war" between rope halters and Dually halters.
In the right hands they are both excellent aids in horse training - just as they can be bad in the wrong hands.
I'm using both as complements to each other and am very happy with that.
Sorry for the double post!
Just wanted to add to my reply above to admit my ignorance over the "war bridle". I had never heard the term before, but today I googled it and got some interesting links to discussions etc.
I still think the critic has it mixed up since the Dually and the "War bridle" is nothing alike - but I did see her words repeated at several of the googled links. Seems to me the problem is that people confuse the pulling back reflex with pressure points, and how a horse is supposed to understand the difference between "move away from the pressure" and "stop to the pressure".
I also took the liberty of copying something someone (the sign. GMW) posted at a South African forum, that seems to apply.
"This has got nothing to do with 'pressure points' on the nose - and just by the way, the picture of the dually is not in any danger of breaking noses, nor is it fitted so low that it is on some highly sensitive nerve cluster point where the bone turns to cartilage - google images of horse skulls and you'll see that the nasal bone actually extends quite far down. The point where it turns to cartilage is much lower down and most dually's are actually fitted slightly higher than the one in the picture."
Kicki very helpful to hear about the nerve cluster point. Could you say more about what you mean by, "how is a horse supposed to understand the difference between "move away from the pressure" and "stop to the pressure""? On the same thread as the other posts, someone has added this: "What other purpose is there to a dually halter if it isn't to warn the horse that pain is the result of resistance?" Inasmuch as I love the Dually, I'm faltering with discerning between applying pressure versus applying pain, and moving into the pressure versus moving away from it (I'll stop with those two because I'm getting myself quite confused.)
The thread I'm referring to is actually public, one can find it via Google, so perhaps providing the link will work here? http://www.eques.com.au/discus/discus/discus.cgi. The URL seems strange to me but maybe this will work, let me post to test.
No, sorry, link right above does not work. Not sure why, as I found it originally by google.
Gwen in your first quote the person is wrong about the fit the schooling rope of the dually goes across the bridge of the nose and Monty says fitting is critical.You never apply enough pressure to cause pain only discomfort.If it was the first time a dually was on the horse it might cause some tenderness.Monty motto is to never cause pain and to take all forms of violence out of one's life
I was aware that a dually (acorss the poll) is the same as any flat webbed bridle so I don't see how excess pressure can be put there using the monty dually. And the rope noseband can only ever exert as much pressure as the person holing onto it. It's clearly stated EVERYWHERE that under no circumstances are horse to be tied up in any way shape or form using the rope section of the noseband. (i think it's actually even stated on the halter itself)Like any schooling tool, it's only as good as the hands holding it. Those that condem training tools (dually's, rope halters, side reins, running reins) are usually not intellegent enough or not had enough experience around professionals to know the difference between correct and incorrect usage. At the end of the day, people will always have their opinions and they're entitled to them so long as they're factual and well informed.
Gwen,
I think I've found the link for you: http://www.eques.com.au/forum/index.html (The Eques Forum » General » Archive through March 08, 2010 » For Sthy and regarding the Dually Halter )
But variations of this discussion can be found in many places on the Web. Personally, I think it is great that the question is debated: This way, hopefully, more people will be able to get enough information, and -above all- FACT, to form an educated opinion.
-
-
You asked about clarification.
I will try to elaborate, but I do hope more knowledgeable people here will correct me if I get it wrong! I am not an "advanced learner" when it comes to the Dually.
About the difference between applying pressure or pain, you just have to ask someone to grab your wrist to feel the difference. Just because someone takes hold, it doesn't mean you are in instant pain, but it can still be uncomfortable. Same thing with the halter! You are not supposed to use it to cause any thing but discomfort. "Pain" is never entered into the procedure. Nor should more force than necessary be used.
Granted, some horses are more sensitive to pressure (remember they are claustrophobic by nature!)and will react more, or simply finds what is in front of them more uncomfortable than that pressure. That is when professionalism and experience in the trainer plays a big part, so the horse doesn't end up terrified for both halter, handler and the task asked of it.
-
On to the expressed idea that the halter would confuse horses since the same pressure/aid would mean both move forward and stop.
I think the ones posting this have it backwards.
The idea (do correct me if I have this the wrong way!)isn't for the horse to obey pressure from the halter, but to pay attention to and respect, your body language, and if he doesn't; life will become uncomfortable.
-
Let's say you are stopping and the horse bumps into you or walk past you, then you use the Dually (or rope halter for that matter) to school him back = move him away from pressure, not to stop him. Soon as he is in the right position, things go back to pleasant normal again.
-
If the horse pulls back instead of moving forward when you start walking, it's more or less the same thing; move away from the pressure (by walking forward)- which basically is what they need to learn first, because their reflex is to lean into it.
-
I hope I could sort it out for you. :) I also recommend reading what Kelly Marks writes about this in her excellent book!
I think the problem with forums and differences in opinion is that anyone can pass a comment or voice an opinion when they do not necessarily have the experience or knowledge of what they are commenting on. I use the halter and I know the fit is correct, I watched and read about the correct usage and my heavy not so sensitive cob is very responsive, the halter is a tool and your body language and ability to read your horse are extremely important elements in the success you achieve with your horse and the halter. I even made sure that an IHRA checked it and it was fine. I don't pass an opinion or comment on things I don't have any knowledge of.
Recently I was introduced to another discussion which was of Linda Parelli training an apparently frightened dangerous horse. I read alot of the comments and could see that alot of them were quite scathing, however, not to defend the method of training used but it was out of context and had the people commenting seen the training dvd they would have seen the beginning of the clip and would have been able to voice their opinion with more knowledge and understanding. It's easily misconstrued. It's always best to look upon things with an open mind and believe what you are doing is the right for you and your horse and more importantly violence free.
First, do we put anything on a horse's head? If yes, there will be some pressure somewhere when we lead it. Second,what is the most comfortable way for us to lead the horse with something on its head? We have many options.
A bridle isn't designed for leading a horse, the bit won't work as it was intended to. Anyone every seen anyone lead with a snaffle bit in? Where is the pressure, what does the horse feel in its mouth.
A headcollar is designed to lead a horse, or even to tie it up in. What happens when a horse startles and pulls away wearing a normal nylon webbing headcollar? The sharp edges of the webbing can rub the hair of the horse's nose - I've seen it.
You can try one of those thin rope halters perhaps. Before you do, put one behind your neck and get someone to tug - it hurts. I wouldn't put a 'cheese wire' halter on my horse, neither would Mark Rashid. Mark Rashid claims that the knots coincide with sensitve areas of the horse's skull.
So what's left to lead our horse? A well fitting Dually of course. The webbing is soft. It should be fitted snug to the horse's head, so it can't put any pressure anywhere that isn't distributed evenly and kindly. We also have the added control of the rope over the bones on the front of the face, well above the nose. If you have a chestnut with sensitive skin, add a sheepskin noseband, but the Dually allows you to stop a horse in an emergency, or retrain a horse that has leaned to pull or barge in the kindest and most effective way of any headcollar.
If anyone says different, ask them to tell you what they have found that is kinder as well as more effective. They won't unless they've just invented it themselves - and if they have, Monty will want to know about it, so he can use it too.
I have just bought a Dually and noticed that in the training video that comes with it,the second clip shows a Dually without the flat nose band above schooling nose rope. Is this an early design or have I missed something ?
You know ... it's ALL to do with HOW you use whatever it is you use !
It is HOW you use your own vocabulary of movement ...movement can be extremely subtle.Think of a dancer ,musician, painter,jeweller or a surgeon!!You can "play" the Dually just like any other halter to obtain great response.
Where I do have a slight qualm is in the day when the Dually being second hand is without it's little label where it states it should never be used to tie from the rings ..Hopefully by then we will all know how it is to be used.The one without a regular noseband is just for training purposes and it weighs less which I personally wd prefer.My original Dually only had one n/s training ring,so no go for long lining.
Horse people are so opinionated. You are never going to change that.
-
As for the pressure on the poll and the nose part... what does any bridle do? A good example is a mechanical type hackamore. It puts pressure on nose and poll. I am not saying that the dually does or doesn't (I am sure there is a little pressure but not alot)
-
As for the horse with the sensitive poll. It could be from a number of things. Monty uses poll helmets when loading horses, maybe the one he put on this horse for some reason was rubbing wrong. How was the horse loaded to go to the demo, maybe the owner did the poll damage themselves. It could be so many things. The owner could also be "imagining" it as lots of people who challange Monty, or any other great horse trainer, tend to do.
-
All in all I would just post on that forum for the person to read the directions before use.
#1 you don't tie with a dually,
#2 fit the dually properly and it won't affect cartiladge or breathing,
#3 The amount pressure a horse receives from the dually is no greater than a bridle, nor is the effect of the nose/poll pressure any different,
#4 MOST IMPORTANT!!! The most important peice of equipment in horse training are the hands that hold it.
GWEN- I would not be too bothered by what this person has posted, there are many out there who doubt the methods and tend to voice opinions on things that they know nothing about.