Thanks Beryl, very interesting. The other thread has slipped down now so i will use this one to thank Miriam for the reminder that Monty mentions that alpha mares can be aggressive but he descibes it as a rare case and coupled with your article Baryl it would suggest that it may require further investigation, particularly if it is a changed behaviour.

Regarding my mare - & she's the one i have experience of, it is not changed behaviour on her part, we celebrated out 10th anniversary on Friday, she is now 13 1/2 years old, she was 3 1/2 when i got her, she has always exhibited stallion like responses to looking after everyone.
Her Dam was the herd leader & mine was born into that position in the herd - you may not agree with that statement, but with her temperament, she has taken on that role too. She is an Alpha mare.
There aren't enough hours left in my life to go through all her behaviours on here, just take my word for it , she is. If i hadn't been lucky enough to go to one of Monty's demo's when I'd had her 2 - 3 weeks, i would never have been able to cope with her; to watch the master at work for 3 hours or so close up is the best education i could have had. I did not do join up with her straight away as it would have been too dangerous at that stage, i had to work on bonding with her before i felt it safe enough to do so.
I have handled several stallions, so i do think that qualifies me to know what I'm talking about with my mare.
The thing that upsets her most, is being unable to move another horses feet; my friends pony, she detested as he totally ignored her when she told him to move - her reaction was to charge & attack him if her was anywhere near her & I'm including when i was riding her - she therefore needed handling as you would a stallion.

The reason i put the link on here to that article is to show that there can be many causes to different behaviours - NOT to say that all mares that show difficult behaviours are Alpha mares.

Looking forward to reading the article when I find the time. It is pretty scary where I live at present as we have had an incredibly hot dry summer and yesterday was the worst fire danger day since our Black Saturday exactly 5 years ago to the day! 76 fires across Victoria and a couple not far enough away from us. My heart goes out to all those people who are currently been threatened by fire. Australia is not a fun place to live in this summer. So many days of 40 + C degrees this year!

Meant to comment that I believe Tricka could be an Alpha mare as she shows the tendencies but so far my QH and I have been able to keep her under control - thanks to Monty too as she was heading in the wrong direction before I joined the Uni. Her mother, Pie, was very alpha in behaviour to humans but she had been terrorised by them so had good reason.

Sorry Beryl, I wasn't referring to your mare in particular or suggesting that you needed to 'do anything', I was just reflecting on the articles - having re-read what I wrote I've realise that's how it sounded! :-)I fully accept you know your mare better than anyone.

Thank you vicci; i would be the first one to suggest that all other possibilities should be explored if anyone had a mare showing problem behaviour!

MagieF, oh boy, i wish you all well, what a terrible situation to be in. I hope to God, it cools down & you get rain very soon! xxx

I remember you said in another post that Tricka was difficult when she said no, it's an interesting point that you say the others can keep her under control.
I know another Alpha mare who was Libby's field mate where i bought her from, she's a TB & very big! She will go for you out in the field! The first time i went back over there, i went up to her stable door to say hello - her response was to charge with mouth open straight at my face - nice!!!!
a couple of years ago, we both had the same vet coming to give flu & tet boosters on the same day, vet arrived at mine having been to my friends first & said, "I didn't know Libby & ***** used to be field mates!" she gets terrorised by this mare on a regular basis - don't envy her job!!! I said " yes, & Libby was the only one who's ever been able to control *****" Vet did a double take with eyes wide open & said "RESPECT! Same vet used to treat this mares father, he was an utter nightmare as well!
That mare has been to one of Monty's very respected associate yards in the UK, they tried everything they could think of with her, but even they said there was nothing they could do with her.
At that point, my friend was still trying to ride her & nearly got beheaded as she ran under the stable overhang & i begged her to stop before someone got killed! She was very grateful for that as she thought she really had to keep trying, she really needed permission from someone to stop!
Incidentally, Libby was able to control *****, but the mum wasn't able to BUT the mum & the other older mare could control Libby; funny story; (My friend has a big shelter with openings at each end)the two older mare had had enough of Lib's antics one day & shut her in the shelter with one mare at each doorway & wouldn't let her out HEE Hee Hee.

Regarding Lib's behaviour when i bought her, she was very upset to be parted from her herd naturally, but she did have some behaviours i don't like ie, chewing clothes etc, i just started to gently push her nose away from me & in a couple of weeks, she was getting a lot better; she was not good picking up feet & she started getting quite nasty as i persisted with the discipline & wouldn't be trained to go away, to the point that when i had my back to her face to pick up a front foot, she really landed her teeth round my ribs,the look on her face was pretty frightening but i was not impressed, I'd had front feet, back feet & teeth going at me, although that was the hardest she'd bitten me, the legs were a warning to go away, she hadn't kicked me but boy was i aware of keeping in a safe place!
After that bite, i did her on the Dually on a long line so i could correct her immediately instead of tying her up.
She did get so good with her feet as i tried hoof boots for a while, but they're useless on her pigeon toes, she just used to lift them up for me to put them on, now, she tres to take control again & not pick one front one up, so i start on different ones ha ha!

Thanks Beryl. The weather has been much better to day and I even got a ride in. We could possibly get a sprinkle of rain this week end -yippee. Sounds as if you have made amazing progress with Libby. No doubt she picked up some of her nasty habits from the other mare. She sounds to be a shocker and very dangerous. You did well to encourage your friend to stop riding her - not much fun when they are like that. Tricka's Mum had every reason to be mad with people as she had been very badly treated before she came to me but she had a gentle streak too once she trusted you. She was a wonderful Mum to Tricka and was very good with me by the time Tricka arrived. I used to think that her behaviour was environmental but now that Tricka shows some of her Mum's traits I realise it must have been partly genetic too.

I do so wish i could send you some of our rain, it's just not stopped in the south of the UK since the beginning of December! There's bad flooding all over the place, luckily we're on top of a high hill, but it's still awful.
Trouble is, when they've been treated badly, it masks their true nature; Tricka does sound a lot like Libby, she's a sweetheart too & once she got to know me, she is very protective. I dread to think what she may have been like without correct handling!!!!!
The other one i certainly class as dangerous & although I'll hold her on the odd occasion, i will not put myself in danger with her!

Keep doing the rain dance, I'll be thinking of you. x

Hi vicci,
Sorry I only found your remark just now! It's a very interesting topic, I think we will all have our eyes wide open and come back to it, should we find something new.
I was not able to open the link beryl put in, don't know why!
Wiil search in another way to try it once more.
Good Equus,
Miriam

Thanks Beryl - some of your rain would be gratefully received but not all of it! Sounds as if you are all getting drowned in U K. Hope it eases up soon and the sun starts shining again.

Sorry Miriam, it does seem to have disappeared, how annoying!
MaggieF - i know what you mean, sink holes suddenly appearing is a worry, were on clay & there was one opened up & swallowed a car in someone's drive just about a mile away last week!
My neighbour opposite had one open up in their field several years ago too.
Oh for some dry weather!!!!
pity we can't do a moderate swap!

Just watching the news. What an awful winter everyone is having in the northern hemisphere - certainly offsets our hot, dry summer with constant fear of fires. Thinking of you all and hoping that soon the storms, wind and snow will abate and the sun will shine again.

Amen to that!!!!!!
we had a lovely sunny day with blue sky yesterday - almost forgotten what that is!!!
The best part of it was that i walked up to the field last night & Libby screamed hello to me then went into full play mode, rolling, rearing, bucking etc & zoomed up to me for a nice rub.
Have you got any sign of rain yet?
It's just as bad either way, fire or flood - not a choice anyone wants is it!

Hello everyone! I'm brand new to the University, and can't be more pleased to be a part of this wonderful journey!! I've already delved into, headfirst, many of the lessons that Monty has and will continue to return to them again and again!!!

As I look at the lessons I can't find one that quite meets the immediate need I have, so I'm hoping you good, horse-loving people can either steer me in the right direction, or help me with some sage wisdom for my problem.

I have a 4 yr old thoroughbred mare who was "queen of the castle" because she was the only horse (besides a donkey) that my best friend was caring for, where I stable her. She was spending LOTS of time with my horse, working her and training with her until my best friend, brought in some new horses of her own. Now my horse isn't "queen" anymore and she's taking it out on the other horses by being a bully. My mare is biting, running off the other horses when it's feeding time, etc....just bullying.

We both want to know, how do we get her to stop being a bully and start playing nice with the other "kiddies" in the pasture?? She's been separated, but I don't want her isolated like that. It's not good for her to be alone, but my friend can't have her beating up on the other horses either!!

HELP!!! PLEASE!!!
Thanks from an Exasperated Horsewoman from Texas!!

hi kermur330, welcome to the uni. I understand EXACTLY what you mean, mine was the same at 3 years old when i bought her home!
You need to introduce her very slowly to the others so no one gets hurt; keep her separate for a while so that she can see & get the smell of the others, then introduce a lower ranking horse from the other group to her, let them make friends before letting her meet the others, she'll not be entirely on her own with a whole group of strangers all at once then. But, take as long as it takes, don't be in a rush as she's not used to being with a large group so it's all new to her & she is worried, it isn't just bullying, she's very unsure, so that's why she's chasing the others away because she doesn't know how to be with them.
Introduce her to another mare, not a gelding as she's showing Alpha behaviour; see how she gets on with the mares.
Hope that helps, i'm sure other people will have more ideas to help you, good luck

Beryl, Thanks for the information!! I am very anxious to pass the info along. I wish I could be there to help, but distance and time just won't allow me to be there!! I know that when I relay this to my friend, she will be more than happy to follow the advice! I'll come back and let you know how it goes, but, if anyone else has any other ideas or remedies, PLEASE feel free to post and I will try them!!

THANKS again beryl!!

Welcome to the Uni. Ker Bear 71. It is always so hard for any horse to join others that they do not know however the sub servant ones fair best as they do not challenge the more bossy ones. So ... I am with Beryl. Leave her in a field/paddock next to the others but by herself for a week or so and then put one of the more sub servant horses with her but watch them carefully. If she is too bossy take the other one out again. Horses tend to bond with specific horses more than others so you could try with different horses. I don't think it matters whether or not it is a mare or a gelding. Sometimes mares and geldings get on better than two mares. You may care to give your mare some of the relaxing products that are on the market first - I haven't used these so others will be able to recommend some. B -Quiet is one I have heard of. Good luck with it.

Welcome Ker - good advice from all; it does change with time and patience honestly :-) Just an aside that probably doesn't apply but I will mention it. Sometimes it stops on its own if you leave them alone for half an hour or so but you have to be careful when its (a) somebody elses' horse that she is pushing round (!) (b) it's causing distress or too much physical damage to the other horse. Occasionaly we do intervene a bit too soon - my little fella is a dab hand at 'winning over' other horses - he just stays calm, stays out of the way, walks off if the other one is grumpy and then gradually wheedles his way in !! It's only failed once and at that stage I kept him away from that particular horse permanently - they just don't like each other c'est la vie :-)

I have a sweet Alpha mare. She is kind and gentle in character, but definitely a stallion by nature. She is more of a stallion than the stallion in the field. If he gets too big for his boots she sorts him out. Arched neck, foot stamping etc etc. If you didint know that she is a mare then you would be forgiven for thinking she was a stallion.

With people she is fantastic, and with other horses she is social, but she leads the herd with wisdom and kindness. Newcomers are greeted with caution, she will keep the ne horse away from the others until she has assessed that the new horse is not a threat to her or the herd.

Before she came to us she was Alpha mare, but her brother was the leader, even though he had been gelded, he was the stallion when it came to the herd. Only my mare could stand beside him at feeding time. She was the go between so to speak. Keeping the peace and calming her little brother down.

Her brother is also sweet with people, but has problems due to being orphaned at a young age. His big sister taught him everything he knows about being a horse.

My Alpha merrie Mumzl is great with rescued horses, she helps in the rehab. Most of the rescues have no idea how to behave in a herd, or what a real herd is. Young horses look up to her and she teaches them how to communicate like a horse, which makes my life easier. Even my older mare of 20 years old learned what it was to be a horse via Mumzl, she had been kept in a stable and ridden inside, never having the chance to be groomed by another horse or to run with a group. She is now totally socialised by Mumzl.

Most wild herds are ran by an Alpha mare and this seems to be natural behaviour. I am all for natural behavior, it means my horses are happy. Wonderful........ dont you just love nature.

Absolutely Liz, mine too is a very sweet mare with people, she is still worried about other horses because she was only a 3 year old when i bought her & had been in a small herd with 2 older mares & another youngster 6 months older than her;when i got her, she had to grow up in the world fast & took on her Alpha role. She was also weaned too early which I'm sure made a difference.
She has to establish that SHE CAN MOVE THE OTHER HORSE to be happy, it's when they don't respond to that she gets stallion like mostly, she's very protective of both me & her companion pony.
They are wonderful, & i agree with you, it is a natural behaviour & both my girls are very happy.
It's great to hear of your experiences, i adore my alpha mare, i spend many hours watching them & how they react when others go up the bridleway next to their field.
The geldings next door caused many problems when others rode up that narrow path, some were attacked, but i've had many comments from people saying how well behaved mine are; she won't act like a stallion when there's no threat, just watches.

I adore my Alpha mare!!!!
We were doing serious hedge work yesterday, cutting a very long overdue hedge & burning the branches to put in a new boundary fence, my beautiful mare was very concerned that i was ok, she wouldn't go away from the electric fence so she could keep an eye on me & whenever i made eye contact with her, she whickered to me, so i went to check in with her & reassure her i was fine & not burnt in the fires. Bless her, she really does look out for me & Ebby.

New to the university, and enjoying it so far. I have 2 mares. One is the alpha to the other but is the nicer of the two. They grew up together on the same breeding farm but are not related and two years apart. I bought them when they were green at ages 3 and 5 from the breeder. They both have very nice bloodlines (AQHA) and have come along nicely. The problem I have is with Aussie (the younger one). She is a pill to say the least. I have had issues with her from the beginning with her pinning her ears back whenever you cinch or apply leg pressure. She's grumpy most of the time and nippy. I seriously feel she is in pain. She is so stiff in her body and her stomach doesn't swing nicely when she walks. Her front feet are on the smaller side and I've recently gone barefoot with both horses. In the fall I had a Equine myofascial release technician evaluate Aussie and she found her left hip a little higher than her right. Which would make sense since her left side is more sensitive. She did a few treatments on Aussie and since then I find her even more nippy and grouchy. She's healthy but I have never had a full physical examination, mainly because I know how costly they are. She does enjoy going on trail rides and is quite pleasant to ride. Here's where the alpha mare thing comes in. Last summer I sent Sydney (my alpha) off to a breeder for 6 weeks, which left Aussie alone. She was a completely different horse!! Pleasant, eager to see me, not nippy, listened when I rode her with little to no complaints or pinning of ears. I was amazed that it was the same horse. When Sydney returned, Aussie's alter ego also returned and has continued to escalate. I have to admit that I have spanked her at times and I know Monty says to get rid of violence, which I am working on. I've ordered the SmartMare Harmony supplement from SmartPak, to see if that will make a difference in her mood. I'm so frustrated with the situation. I can't trust her around others for fear that she'll react badly. I absolutely love Sydney - she is so easy going for an alpha mare and never gives me a single problem. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Hi. Welcome to the Uni. I will not recriminate you for past transgressions - not got a leg to stand on myself in that dept, but happily that is now a long time back. You say the younger mare is bad tempered & you have spanked her for it yet when the older mare was absent, the younger one was much better. I think you have spanked the bullied child! For your failure to meet her needs! Separate them, in such a way that, if there are no other horses around they can still see one another but not interact - at least 2 meters apart. So two electric fences if you only have one field. You have an older, dominant mare who you love because she is easy to get on with & a younger one who gets no peace from either her companion or you. You love Sydney but Aussie is the one who needs love. Aussie is the underling & she resents this oppression. She is communicating to you her distress. Do you use Join up? If not, I strongly advise you to go on the incredible Monty Journey. Keep us up to date with progress or problems. We are here to help. Cheers, Jo.

Jo has summed it up well zeiddance; you have a great learning opportunity here, enjoy :-)

Oh one point, get her medically checked - if you feel she is in pain you have a duty to get her treated. Good luck, keep us posted.

Thanks for the advice. I'm on the Monty journey now!! I will keep you posted!

Since my last post, I had my mare checked by the vet, with nothing out of the ordinary. I then got the name of a chiropractor/touch therapy master by the name of Mike Buskohl, and "wow" did he make a difference!! He worked on her for about 1.5 hours and it was amazing to watch as he adjusted and manipulated her. She released a ton of tension and was standing so long and relaxed in the end I had to do a double take to see if it was the same horse. He gave me some tasks to work on with her and call him in a month. I've seen a remarkable change in her. She was over-compensating for a right front toed-in problem and causing all kinds of issues with her right shoulder and the left side of her neck. Her gate is smoother, she doesn't pin her ears and nip because she's not in as much pain. Still the occasional tweak comes up, but being consistent in my pain management program has helped. So thankful I went the holistic route. Another note...I changed her feed to Kalm and EZ by Tribute and added SmartMare Harmony supplement from SmartPak. I'm seeing a difference and I'm loving it!

Hi, I'm so happy for you & both your girls - now they can enjoy your company & vice versa. Please, still keep in touch, we like to hear good stuff as well as troubles. Cheers, Jo.

When I'm back on the laptop will have a look at the article Beryl.
Im not sure if Winter might be trying to be Alpha mare, she's really evil until she's fed. The teeth have come out again, thought I'd broken that habit she's been at mine for 6 weeks now, lands her jaw on top of my head that hurts, half rears at the door.. I ignore it and just carry on with what I'm doing, she hates my dearly beloved again, evil look on her face if he enters the stable to hang up a net, even while munching hard feed. Teeth and back due to be done, so that may help, she was doing so well at home..
Going off subject a tad.
Had to laugh last week, Tiggy the prize prat somehow managed to get 2 gates off the barn, the big one (12') was outside Winters stable, slightly damaged with his shoe below it.. So I wash off his legs when everyone's in to see if there's any damage, only a graze on his hind leg, he's desperately trying to groom Winter who's not at all interested..

Tiggy, I'm sorry she's returned to be territorial around her food.
You say she has "evil look on her face if he enters the stable to hang up a net, even while munching hard feed."
Is there any way you can take her out while putting food in her box? That might get a bit of the tension out for all of you.
.
Also, we should all be careful with the use of words like "hate" and "evil". I know you don't mean it literally, but just using the words puts us (more or less subconsciously) in a certain mind set and the horse will notice. We have to keep in mind that it isn't personal - they are just trying to protect themselves or their food and when they can't flee, they fight.
.
I do hope you will get her to feel better before someone gets hurt as they can get quite viscious while defending their food.

Hi. I read Tiggy's post & went away to consider my input. Ignoring this behaviour only encourages it & no one should be getting bashed on the head! If I had to deal with this situation I would use distraction, specifically I would use the dually to show her that this is not acceptable. No need to be hard on her. Try & arrange feeding when your partner can help. Take her out & walk her around whilst her food is put in place. Ideally, Winter will quickly appreciate that she is let into her feeding area very swiftly when her attitude is acceptable. I would hope this routine would establish the opportunity to eventually have Winter standing calmly watching her food being put in place & then joining it. I would use tiny steps & much praise & try to banish all thoughts of 'evil & hate' as that makes the process harder for all. Cheers, Jo.

I wonder...we are all focusing on the food but is it the presence of the gelding constantly trying to groom her/hormonal issues do you think? i.e. she is just in a bad mood; it's just a thought as you have said that she is clearly not interested and may be fed up with him pestering? In the meantime, the safety advice Jo gives is important.

To clarify, Tiggy is the opposite end of the stable block to Winter and was only down there as the hose is that end & his legs were covered in mud I wanted to make sure he hadn't cut himself, last time they met he tried to bite her as in dominate. She's worse in the mornings when I go in to get her rubber feed bowl, she's a slow eater so I leave her to it, her feed is always in the stable when I bring them in as is her haynet, she's fine in the evenings, so it just be IM STARVING MUM in the mornings I'm not sure, shes on a scoop of healthy hooves & coarse mix, a large haynet and some hay in the field. She's also having a growth spurt (just 5), she's started to damage her night rug so I changed it for another that I bought before xmas, 6'6" and it's 3" too short, so she's got a gap in the front keep the bum warm....
I'm half tempted to have a change around & put Winter out with the Old Dragon for a few days then change them over so she's with Tiggy then let them all in together. They all seem to have settled down, we don't have himself bouncing in the stable anymore.

Hi. You know these guys best of all. You try everything you can think of to keep them content & safe. The important thing is not to let your thinking become fixed & to convince yourself you're in a war - if you go that route you'll have lost! Each of these guys are incredible characters, I know as I have 5 & each is so very different. It is our job to work out how to meet the needs of each of our charges - no small task. Cheers, Jo.

Hi Jo, thought bugger it this morning so I put several piles of hay out in one field, as they all have hay in the morning. Let Winter & Beros out no problem straight to the hay, Tiggy & Tears out next, he was quite calm wandering down the yard, Tears as usual took off like a cut cat (she really should learn she's 29), so we had a bit of argy bargy for a couple of minutes. Tiggy went for Winter mouth open ears back, which I expected from him to be honest, so she kicked out & went off across the field. They all had a gallop round then Tiggy & Tears are standing together like Ronnie & Reggie Kray watching Winter. She's not bothered, busy munching hay. Winter did come in to me as I was mucking out, the other 2 were guarding the hay she wanted! Quite funny watching those 2 not really knowing how to react. Tears has been lots of places & been put out with new friends but it's been a long time since I've had anyone new at home.. Will see how much devastation they've caused to the field later on. Other half will not be a happy bunny, but that field could do with ploughing & re seeding anyway was done before Tiggy was around & he's 13 now....

Well there was no blood when I got back to the horses this afternoon, spent 1/2 an hour stomping the hoof marks down, being followed by Winter, Ronnie & Reggie looking on, yes they had their share of fuss as well. Winter was the first one in, then himself came over & promptly helped himself to part of her net!! Couple of squeals but nothing major.. See what happens tomorrow..