Hi, this is my first post here and hope to get some advices for how to help a pony and her rider.
Its a mare, 16 years or so. Earlier sheS been at a riding school where kids have been poking her with whips from outside the box.the girl and the mother who now owns the horse, are afraid of her, and theyve been both bitten and kicked.
Since i practise equus on my horse, theyve come to me to get some advices on how to handle her, thing is, i really think its about the pony dominating the owners, but also that she really wants to protect herself.
If the girl walks to the box door, the pony will make herself really bad looking, stamp, attack, back off, turn back against the girl and kick. IF the girl does NOT have Carrot with her into the box.... But then shell have to go out from the box quickly.
Shes also attacking ppl when to go get her from the pasture.
Any suggestions on how to make this horse not feeling threatened in the box and stop attacking ppl? Other ppl inthe stable says owner Hould beat her up "same medicine" so im relly happy they have asked me for advice and i really want to be able to show them another way thAn beating her up....
Ive been studying the uni for a long time but got my own horse just a month ago so i dont have so much of practical experience of equus as i know it on paper...
Written from my phone on a long car-jurney so i appologize for being confusing in the question.
Hope everyone have had a nice christmas!
Hi Therese,
I think you are asking us how can you help an aggressive female pony, correct?
She is 16 and has had a very tramatic live by the sounds of it.
Remember horses never forget, especially where pain is involved.
This poor little girl needs all the care you can offer her.
Is it possible for the owners to also join the UNI?
Do you have any of Montys' books that they could read?
It is wonderful that you want to help them as well as her and I hope that they will put into application what you share with them.
Is she able to have a halter put on her? If so do you have a dually halter that will fit her?
If you do, then backing her up, then release, back up, release.... and do this until she realizes that you are in control.
You will also notice that this will have a calming affect on the pony and she will be calmer, for everyone.
This is the first thing you need to do with her.
Next, a good join-up, this too will calm her.
DO NOT FEED HER by hand, with an aggressive horse this will definetly casue a bitter.
Try these two things first and let me know how it works for her.
Be gentle with the halter, do not tug, encourage her to back up, OK. And if she just takes a tiny step back, praise with a rub.
Have a good day,
Ronda
Therese
Ronda has made two very good suggestions. My only concern is how aggressive the pony seem in her behavior. Any anima that bites or kicks can be very dangerous especially if the owners don't has a lot of experience handling an aggressive animal You will need to be super vigilant and always be able to see where the pony is. If you turn your back or are not paying attention it is quite possible that the pony will use that opportunity to attach you. While my guess is she is trying to protect herself and it is either a fight or flight situation with horses.
My other concern is that the pony has already succeeded in fighting to have the owners leave her alone an my guess is that they are scared of her and rightfully so. If you try to train a horse and you are afraid of the horse they will sense it and us that fear to their advantage
If you are able to keep calm but aware and get a couple of good join-ups with the pony, I would then do a join-up with the young girl in the round pen with you and letting her try to achieve join-up with the pony. If the pony starts to trust you and she sees that you trust the young girl it will help the pony accept a join-up with her.
Be careful and safe
Cheers
Hi Therese,
I am quite worried about what you are telling. I can only agree wtih the other answers, but if you are not sure about yourself beeing able to do tho Dually-Work and Join-Up with such an aggressive horse, stay safe and engage an professional. Maybe there is somebody living near you who learned it from Monty? This horse really seems to be dangerous, so be aware of every step you take!
Best wishes and Merry Christmas from Hamburg, Germany
Jasmin Hochfeld
Hi Therese,
Before going through all the things advised here, I would settle with this pony a so called "stable Join-up". She has learned to control people by frightening them out of her personal safety zone, her stable. When you approach her stall and she turns her back, keep your eyes on her. As soon as she looks at you, turn away on 45° and invite her to come to you, don't catch her, let her catch you. This might not work in the first attempt, but she'll find out that you're not threatening, when you give her the chance to come to you, instead of being caught.
Wear good clothing, safe shoes and a helmet, so you are well protected.
Let us know how things go,
Miriam
Hi Miriam,
great idea!
Jasmin
Hi Therese, I agree with Miriam. This is how i first went about handling my current horse who is just out of the wild and unhandled. My difference is that he is not agressive. So please be VERY careful and i agree with Dennis that you should definately get a professional who uses Monty's methods to do the work if you are inexperienced. There is a big difference in knowing it on paper and doing it with a real and agressive horse. If you feel you are confident and can handle this without fear of the horse then have a go but most of all be safe :-)
Keep us posted on your progress!
Janelle
Hi Therese,
I have been going to a site that I saw on Montys' international join-up site.
It is a link from his site.
If you go on the internet and on your browser type in
The Horse.com you will come to their site.
Next click on videos and a list will come up then click on
How to
Next scroll down until you come to the video called: Teach your horse stall manners.
This is very informative.
Follow his advice very cafefully.
I have found many sites on Montys' international site.
I hope you find this informative and helpful,
Ronda
Hi, and thank you for all the good advices.
Majestic, i have a blue and a black dually, not sure tha black will fit this pony. But since i already have a black and a blue one im thinking of ordering the red one too. collection complete :)
Ive done dually work om my 7 y warmblood, with big sucess and ill do as you advice and try it on this pony too. The girl who owns her barely do no ground-work so....part of the problem..
The owners are not convinced of equus so they will prolly not read a book or join the uni if they do not get proof this will work, then maybe..
Good thing tho is that they really want to try this before the other ppls methods "in nature no horse would be kind to a horse who is behaving bad.."-phillosophy.
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Dennis, thank you for the safety tips. you said "the pony has already succeeded in fighting to have the owners leave her alone an my guess is that they are scared of her" and that is so true, it almost shows in her face that she know theyll leave her if she will act aggressively.
I looked into the mirror this morning...and im thinking, maybe the pony is BORED of training with the girl? This is a girl who choose the pony for its talent, not the personllity, and all they do is train and compete..If this pony is so bored, ofc she would not be very friendly when the girl tries to go in to her or catch her?
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Miriam, thank you for confirming my thoughts... Ive thought of joining up in her stall but wasnt sure how to make it in such a small area.
What would you suggest doing when/if she "jumps" farward? Is it the join-up sending away and waiting for her to look at me or..?
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Majestic, thank you again for the link, it was a good video and im gonna bookmark the page to look at the other videos too!
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Im gonna give it a try since the only monty-instructor in sweden is living far from me and will not travel so far for "teaching". Im gonna try to stay safe and i think im her best chance of not having to being beaten up and totaly loose all the respect and trust to humans.
Im going there right now, ill keep you posted!
AGAIN, thank you all for the advices!
Hi,
I heard of putting a tablespoon of honey into their regular feed. This apparently relaxes them and gives a slow release of energy? You could also try join up and see what she is scared of like whips and stuff like that and get her used to the fact that no one is going to hurt her anymore. Also you could try putting her in a dually halter and leading her in and out of the stable so that she gets used to people coming in and going out of the stable, then remove the dually and put her in the box on her own. Then see if she is the same as she was when you enter the stable. But remember to keep your eyes down and not look at her eyes and keep your fist closed and make no jerking movements as you enter the stable:) i hope this all helps.
Abi
Hi Therese,
Go back to the mirror and make it an excercise, how to send away a horse that jumps forward to scare you! Get big, look her in the eyes, wave your arms, stamp your feet and get her respect! As soon as she turns down her energy, lower yours too. Breathe right, be like an actor on stage, play with your expression, keep your adrenalin down.
Use the same methods as when desensitizing, stay with her when she acts "bad", go away when she relaxes, this ways she'll "teach" you to take the pressure off, and respect you for it.
Miriam
Miriam, i love your answer and husband will be woderig what im doing in the bathroom all night, stamping and making faces:) you explaied just right..
I showed the dually on my horse, for the pony owners today, so thay know what it is. They seemed to like it and they are ok with me training the pony with it so now im just waiting for the storm to seattle (no indoormanege). Stall joinup tomorrow, first attempt.
Again, thank you.
Dear Therese, do you by any chanse live in Sweden? Just making an asumption of your name, so no bad things wether you are or not! May I ask if there is many people involved with the pony in the stable? Different people taking her in and out? How is the routine in the stable - same hours bringing in and out and feeding or different? Alone or with other horses in the pasture?
Dealing with any horse with irrational behavoir (as we wiew it) is a big responsability - putting the horses need first is a good way to success! I often ask my students to put the 5 questions down first - what is the problem, why is it a problem, when did the problem start, what/whom started the problem and then to the best part: What are we going to do to solve it? Now, how would the body language look on a person if they were to get this pattern of aggressiveness in the horse? Please get back so we can help you down the rigth path! My suggestions if your "on it" allready - Nr 1 no eyecontact Nr 2 Advence and retreat - stay safe and at the boxdoor please. That´s step one. Warmest
Hi/Hej.
Dont know if i need to continiue in english but i'll do so for the sake of the forum :)
Yes, im from sweden, living more than 10 swedish miles from you, in Falkenberg, else ive been thinking of contacting you.
We have 8 horses in the stable and eleven owners, and we all help with feeding/in/out so its different ppl. We do feed and put in and out on same hours.
In the pastures its two-and-two, but this pony doesnt go well with most of the horses so shes in a pasture with two other, one that she likes (another mare) and a vallack.
last day she changed stall, so she now have one side that is a whole wall. Before, there was an empty box on one side, and a horse on the other. I had mine next to her when he first arrived but second day she bit him pretty bad on the lip so we thought she was feeling not so good surronded that much and mine is very curious and wants to communicate with the others so he was moved to another stall.
I will bring the questions to the owners. The mother was kicked pretty bad in the pasture day after christmas so now they seem pretty desperate....
Thing is they say the previous owner have told she was like this in the pasture, not in the stall (maybe she wasnt telling). So the behavior have been there for a while, and escalated when this girl and her mother now owns her. Maybe its not them but the surrondings too as you seem to inflict.
We do have the option to move the horses around in the stable, but the main thought for most ppl are that they should not be alone, so maybe that is the pony's problem.
When you say no eye contact, i can understand that threatens even more, but its the opposit to what the other answers have told. Id love to hear why no eye contact, maybe the others are intrested in knowing that too?
Thank you!
Dear Therese - wonderful with "swedes" on the Uni aswell!I do travel around Sweden (and the other nordic countrys) for demonstrations, private sessions and hold clinics & courses both at home and away. Just 4 weeks ago I had a lecture in Borås. I held 25 demonstrations around sweden in 2011 - that is more or less every second weekend of the year!
Let us all be clear on the safety issue first - it is not, in any regards, advisable for unexperienced people to deal with this horse. What we need to understand is that the horse has learned how to attack, humans have a tendency to believe we can "stand our ground" if we figured out the horse - we forget the horse has a "mind full of pictures" of different approaches from people that has tried to "stand their ground" and scare her - this means the horse have not only figured you out allready, she has a memorybank of movements and "open windows" for an attack. With that said - she is not the one going to get hurt if anybody attempt this approach.
With this, I will tell you how I would approach this matter instead of suggesting how anyone else would do. I want to be clear on this one - I know my limits, my knowledge and have dealt with "aggressive" horses on a daily basis the past 15 years.
I would suggest that you film with your mobile and send it to me - in that way I have a better understanding of her behavoir and I might be able to help you more.
One of the most critical part in any matter with horses is not to hesitate in your: movements, breathing and projective energy - you never know what "ticks of" the horse.
I would approach her box without any eyecontact. I would open the boxdoor, have a perfect bodylanguage and energy, I would put the dually halter on her.
I would ask her to take a step back, and then take her for a walk. I would then take her back to her box - walk in to the box, turn her around so she faces the door, ask her to back up then take the halter of and walk out from there. I would from there outline a schedule of handling and approaching.
Do not feed her from the hand.
Always have her on the Dually if you have to be in the box with her.
Always answer her questions - every time.
Always leave her to be a horse while in the pasture.
You have put down a lot of information about the pony - the whole picture is very important. Horses do get tired of just practise practise practise - Monty describes this very good in his book Horses in My Life.
You can also watch Monty with the non-loader/duallyhalter schooling on horseandcountrytv.co.uk - it is a very advenced lecture! http://www.horseandcountrytv.co.uk/episode/monty-and-kelly-horsemanship-essentials-learning-lead-and-load
Watch it 10 times before thinking working with a horse like that - I want you to see the pattern and "thinking" from the horse - and see Montys perfect timing and release - we need to understand when we start with what part - wath Montys eyes - watch the horse eyes aswell - it gives you loads of information of how she is thinking.
At our horsephsycology weekend in october we had one quartermare in for evaluation - she was sold with written contract being aggressive and attacking - I can put you in contact with the girl if you like - both horse and owner had many good insights from only 2 days of working - they will now build on the trust and skills in equus.
If you believe in your skills, do help the girl and her mother and pony - please feel free to contact me through my website or FB if you would like to arrange any halfday demonstration (or full day) - many boarding stables have me in for a day so everybody at the stable can handle all the horses the same way - everybody knows the same thing and that itself leads to more understanding from everybody and every owner feels good knowing their horse will be treated the way the want.
Keep On Equus! And stay safe with a smile! Warmest Ann
Ann
I have a question about the advise you have given Therese on how to train the pony. My suggestions to her were similar but I also suggested that she do a few join-ups to gain the confidence of the horse and so that they would both be talking to each other in a way both could understand. I did not see any mention of a Join-up in your advise and am wondering why? is just handling the pony with a dually just the preliminary step or is this the way she should train the poiny and forget the join-up.
Thanks for all the advise you have been giving. It is most helpful. Also how far is a swedish mile?
Happy New Year
Cheers
Oh, lovely! More people from Sweden on here! :)
Hej Ann och Therese!
Dear All and Dennis! Thank you for a very good question Dennis. Why should I not attempt Join-Up(r) as the FIRST step to rahabilitation of this particular ponny?
Think for a second of the information we have gotten. A horse is a prey and flight animal. If the ponny is in a pasture and rather fight then flee - what could the outline be if we are to let the horse tell us her story in a smaller confinement as a roundpen?
You have to have a small amount of understanding of eachother before taking the step in a Join-Up. When Monty worked with Shy Boy in the wild - he did not start with Join-Up, he started with Advence & Retreat, followed by getting the halter on. You also have loads of information on Montys You and Your wild horse - essenssial information on how to "think equus".
Now, we all know that eyes on eyes means Go away. If a horse has - in her mindsetting - lost the flight possibility, she will not lay down and die, she will fight. If you at this point "challenge" her by looking her in the eyes, the ponny does not reweiw it as humans - they do not have the words to use in a discussion, they react to your actions. A highly delicate feel and a 100% bodyawareness needs to be in place.
Let´s look at it from another point of veiw. When we humans act - the horse will associate our actions and projective energy to previous situations. It´s like they have a DVD player with different films - you might "put in a DVD" that gives you a reaction of irrational behavior" - with this said, you want to get the right DVD in allready from the start.
Horses that are aggressive might very well "flee" when you send them away in your join-up(r) - Do keep in mind, we are having a conversation in the roundpen. We are not dictating for the horse what to do - we get the horse to move.
The only way for a horse to be higher in rank than enother horse is to get the other to move. Still, we are talking about a 50/50 partnership. That gives the horse the right to tell us their story. And it often comes quick when the horse realize you speak equus. They understand that you hear and see them. That is the reason why we don´t start with a Join-Up(r)! Often in the turns or just at the follow up the horse might "take her chance" to tell how she really feels about human kind.
often we feel that the Join-Up(r) would be the solution for so many things, if we have seen or done Join-Up(r) ourselves. Good horsemanship is looking at the whole picture. It might be a little difficult to get the "hang of it" if you hear us (Monty and CI´s) say: Im going to do a quick Join-Up(r) first before we start workíng with the horses- Bare in mind, we have assessed the horse allready and knows what he or she needs. We hear what the owners tells us but we feel what the horse tells us!
Just this summer I had a participant in a 5 day Join-Up clinic telling me she had not been attacked ones or twice but 3 times in a follow up, by a mare that the owner had said was aggressive. This is the reason WHY we are so direct on telling everybody : Working with horses can be dangourus - do NOT attempt working with difficult horses if you are not a proffessinal. The woman had clearly not understood how a "not normal horse" thinks and veiw mankind. We just have to have the right mindset and knowledge ourselves - it is a huge responsability and your own responsability if you decide wheter you can make a difference or not.
I want to say the most important thing ones more - Childen shall have nice, quiet, well mannered educated ponnies. We can NEVER put the responsability in the hands of a child with an aggressive pony!
I do hope you can get the feel of the thinking in my explenation? Not easy when you don´t have the language as fluent!
I want you all to know - I have dealt with many aggressive horses. One of them is my kiger mustang INDY. He broke his fron leg at the age of 9 months.
I was very specific telling everybody involved at the animal hospital NOT to let Indy get into peoples space NOT to cuddle and kiss him and always be aware of their actions. They keept telling me what a lovely cuddly boy he was..and one day Indy had had enough. He had assessed and veiwed all the people and knew exactly how the acted. And that day he went for a full attack. They could not even enter the box - they had to shoot him with arrows from outside the box to sedate him to be able to clean his wounds. I new allready from the start what might be happening in the future.
Indy recovered beutifully at home - roundpen panels, pregnant pony mares as company and a whole lot of Equus knowledge fixed it! I was a rollercoster ride for all involved.
Now - Lets cross our fingers for Therese and the pony! I might be on my way up to Falkenberg to help out!
And HELLO Kicki!
And Dennis: A swedish mile is 10km!
Pleas keep the great questions coming!
Warmest Ann