Yes, Horse Addict, you are absolutely right. You have to establish that foundation of trust with Join-Up and move on from there. Everything is so much easier Monty Roberts' way.

Thankyou Gen, and good luck in September!

What are these “traditional methods”? American, European, Spanish, south American , Mongolian....? I'm German, but I actually live in Italy, before I lived in Pakistan, Kenya, Colombia, Honduras. Everywhere you meet different attitudes towards horses.
I Germany the horses are used to human contact since they are a foal. We don't break horses, but give them time to get used to new things like saddle etc. The magical word is patients and calmness.
I have a Thoroughbred that didn't liked the bit. He raised his head and closed his teeth. I just let him for a while ( several month) and used to ride him without. In the meanwhile he trusts me. If I put the bit now in front of him, he puts it in his mouth by himself.
You talk about free choice ! To me it seems, that the horse hardly has a free choice. It just seems to be like that. He can choose between so called “cooperation” ( doing something only to avoid Mister NIC = immediate punishment) or non cooperation. What will happen, if a horse really decides freely. If he just don't want to join and follow up with the human, who spend thousands of dollars to buy him. Will we free him in the wild and wish him good luck, or will we try to “convince” him, until he cooperates .

Billybaji

As long is there is no violence, and you are treating your horse fairly, i think they are great. I have a filly who has suffered a serious injury, and when i come into her pasture, she comes hobbling up to me as fast as she can, and neighing. she follows me around with no halter or lead. She really trusts me, and i think a training method that creates a bond like that is a good one.

Mimi

billybaji, what I meant for "traditional" methods meaning using forms of aggression towards the horse.

Hi BillyBaji
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Yes, we are refering to the traditional methods used to "break" a horse in. Saying to the horse "you will do this or I will hurt you". Monty Roberts talks a bit about these techniques in his books too.
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In some of Monty Roberts' lessons and books, he also talks about the nature of the horse being such that the horse likes and wants to trust. By using the techniques of Join-Up, we are communicating with the horse in his own language and asking the horse if he wants to be with us. Because the nature of the horse is such that they like and want to trust, the process of Join-Up allows the horses to choose to be with us.
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Its the nature of the horse that makes join-up work in this way.
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When using traditional "breaking" methods, the horse has no choice because he is forced to accept things because he is tied up, beaten or whatever to make him comply.
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Also, the PICNIC concept is not really about punishment, its more about making the behaviour you want comfortable and the behaviour you don't want uncomfortable so that the horse chooses the good behaviour because its easier than misbehaving.
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From what I have read and experienced since discovering Monty Roberts, the only time Join-up doesn't work is when the human is not doing something right. The horse wants to trust.
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I bet Abigale from the Centuar Series feels a lot more relaxed within herself now. It must be liberating to come to the realisation that every person or object you see is not going to hurt you.
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Have you watched that series? Its great :-)
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Kind regards,
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Gen

Thanks Gen for that back up!

No worries, and thanks for wishing me luck for my Intro Course :-)

These are the principles that should be the base for every method, traditional or modern.

“Xenophon"s Basic Training Principles

Xenophon has trained in the ancient world 2000 years ago horses. His principles are timeless valid. Back then, people had more constant reference to the horse. Life with the horse in ancient times was not reduced as it is today on the play. The more a person must now reflect his attitude toward his horse. 

1. Your horse should be a loyal friend, not a slave!

2. Give its training as much attention as if it were your own son. Make sure that both body and soul of your horse are carefully trained. It should excel both in its capacity to perform and its reliability. Imprinting and influencing its character should be particularly important to you!

Begin to imprint it when it is only a few days old to deeply trust you, respect you and obey you.

Make your horse be philanthropic towards humans! It should downright love you.

3. Teach it to love work and to voluntarily obey!

4. Be cautious and considerate of its needs!

5. Do everything in your power to understandably communicate with your horse.

It should understand your “language”! Rewarding and punishment are the only instruments needed for its upbringing. But rewarding is absolutely the first priority. Reward every special performance and every progress in learning – the best way to reward it is to give it a break or stop work.

6. Don’t bore your horse! Vary the work, offer the horse a variety of stimuli. Don’t ride it only on the track, but also train it in the open country, jump it and take it hunting.

7. Work on training your own body and character! Make an effort to obtain a correct seat, independent of the movement of the horse, which allows you controlled guidance of the horse in every exercise, tempo and terrain. Your hand should on no account disturb the horse’s mouth. Train yourself to remain calm in all situations and to control your emotions. Leave no space for fits of rage.

8. Realize that the exercises in high school dressage are not tricks you can teach your horse to do with the help of unnatural means of coercion. Rather, they are a horse’s form of impressive self-expression, shown to other members of its species when it is especially excited.

9. Your horse should experience joy in its work and movements, and its posture should reveal its enthusiasm.

10. Don’t try to collect and elevate your horse bridling it strongly backwards or using other means of coercion. Ride decisively forward with lightly applied reins, giving them in at the right moment. “

Reitkunst Xenophon
Author: Dr. Klaus Widdra
(Complete revision of the 1965 release, Akademieverlag Berlin)

bbbBillybaji

“5. Do everything in your power to understandably communicate with your horse.
It should understand your “language”! Rewarding and punishment are the only instruments needed for its upbringing. “

I find the definition of “punishment” and “negative reinforcement “ sometimes a bit confusing.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Helpful definitions:
Appetitive stimulus: a pleasant outcome
Aversive stimulus: an unpleasant outcome

Forms of operant conditioning:
Positive reinforcement: the adding of an appetitive stimulus to increase a certain behavior or response.
Example: Father gives candy to his daughter when she picks up her toys.

Positive punishment: the adding of an aversive stimulus to decrease a certain behavior or response.
Example: Mother yells at a child when running into the street.

Negative reinforcement: the taking away of an aversive stimulus to increase certain behavior or response.
Example: Turning off distracting music when trying to work.

Negative punishment (omission training): the taking away of an appetitive stimulus to decrease a certain behavior.
Example: Taking away a doll when a child does not go to bed.
The following table shows the relationships between positive/negative reinforcements and increasing/decreasing required behavior.

decreases likelihood of behavior
increases likelihood of behavior
presented
positive punishment
positive reinforcement
taken away
negative punishment
negative reinforcement

Distinguishing "positive" from "negative" can be difficult, and the necessity of the distinction is often debated.[5] For example, in a very warm room, a current of external air serves as positive reinforcement because it is pleasantly cool or negative reinforcement because it removes uncomfortably hot air.[6] Some reinforcement can be simultaneously positive and negative, such as a drug addict taking drugs for the added euphoria and eliminating withdrawal symptoms. Many behavioral psychologists simply refer to reinforcement or punishment—without polarity—to cover all consequent environmental changes.

From http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/faculty/wasserman/glossary/punishment.html

Punishment
Punishment is defined as a consequence that follows an operant response that decreases (or attempts to decrease) the likelihood of that response occurring in the future.

Positive Punishment
In an attempt to decrease the likelihood of a behavior occurring in the future, an operant response is followed by the presentation of an aversive stimulus. This is positive punishment.
 
If you stroke a cat's fur in a manner that the cat finds unpleasant, the cat may attempt to bite you. Therefore, the presentation of the cat's bite will act as a positive punisher and decrease the likelihood that you will stroke the cat in that same manner in the future.

Negative Punishment
In an attempt to decrease the likelihood of a behavior occurring in the future, an operant response is followed by the removal of an appetitive stimulus. This is negative punishment.
 
When a child "talks back" to his/her mother, the child may lose the privilege of watching her favorite television program. Therefore, the loss of viewing privileges will act as a negative punisher and decrease the likelihood of the child talking back in the future.

Punisher
A behavior (operant response) is sometimes less likely to occur in the future as a result of the consequences that follow that behavior. Events that decrease the likelihood of a behavior occurring in the future are called punishers.

Positive Punisher
A positive punisher is an aversive event whose presentation follows an operant response. The positive punisher decreases the likelihood of the behavior occurring again under the same circumstances.
click here for an example of a positive punisher

Negative Punisher
A negative punisher is an appetitive event whose removal follows an operant response. The negative punisher decreases the likelihood of that behavior occurring again under the same circumstances.
click here for an example of a negative punisher

Billybaji
 

Horse addict and Gen,
The original topic is so true, my little filly was so neglected and abused, the no harm, no pain method has brought her around.
She trusts people will not hurt her now but is still cautious.
As is said they will forgive but they do not forget, ah.

Trying to understand the difference:

“Punishment is the authoritative imposition of something negative or unpleasant on a person or animal in response to behavior deemed wrong by an individual or group

Negative Reinforcer
A negative reinforcer is an aversive (= unpleasant) event whose removal follows an operant response. The negative reinforcer increases the likelihood of that behavior occurring again under the same circumstances.

Negative Reinforcement
In an attempt to increase the likelihood of a behavior occurring in the future, an operant response is followed by the removal of an aversive stimulus. This is negative reinforcement.”
 "decreasing pressure, stopping to work and let the horse rest, etc..."??

Negative Punishment
In an attempt to decrease the likelihood of a behavior occurring in the future, an operant response is followed by the removal of an appetitive stimulus. This is negative punishment.

Positive Reinforcement
In an attempt to increase the likelihood of a behavior occurring in the future, an operant response is followed by the presentation of an appetitive stimulus. This is positive reinforcement.
"Reward, treat, honey on the spoon, grooming etc.."??

Positive Punishment
In an attempt to decrease the likelihood of a behavior occurring in the future, an operant response is followed by the presentation of an aversive stimulus. This is positive punishment.
 Buck Stopper , dually halter, to be chased away, Giddy-Up , wip, etc..

In other words:

The horse shows a behavior that we don't appreciate, so we (the authoritative) impose something negative, unpleasant or aversive ( negative reinforcer) on the horse, in order to remove the aversive-negative stimulus in case of an operant response.
That means, we first have to punish ( positive punishment )the horse, and than release the punishment or stimulus when it gives up the not appreciated behavior and shows the desired behavior.

If we equate punishment with pain and violence ( including physical and psychological ), I agree with everybody not to use punishment.
I read the definitions many times and tried to find examples for them and I realized how close and overlapping they are.

I hope that nobody feels offended, it seems very common reaction. I just try to understand. Many misunderstandings show up, because everybody has a different definition of the terms we use .

Billybaji

Hi again Billybaji
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Firstly, I am not offended by your post. But I do think you are making the concepts of Monty Roberts' techniques more complicated than what they really are. Put simply,
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1. “Xenophon"s Basic Training Principles are similar to Monty's with the one major difference I can see from the explanation you have provided being that we are learning the language of the HORSE - not the other way around.
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2. The definitions you have provided are great, but the PICNIC concept is still as simple as making the good behaviour easier than the bad.
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3. The techniques used by Monty Roberts are developed to compliment the nature of the horse and cause the horse to want to do what we ask him to.
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One of the things I love the most about the Uni is that we can chat to people from all over the world. Sometimes the terms used can be confusing because the same word eg. punishment, can mean different things to different people from different countries. Personally, I don't like the word because it makes me think of violence. But in actual fact, you are right that punishment can be something as non-violent as taking a doll away from a child or not allowing them to watch TV when they do something wrong.
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I hope you are not offended by my response :-) I am not offended by your post, but I am a little confused though... I am confused because I felt that the lessons provided here on the Uni were so clear in the solutions they provide. It doesn't matter to me that the honey stick is a positive punishment or that the buck stopper is a aversive-negative stimulus. These things work without causing trauma to the horse - that's all that really matters.
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You and I are lucky to have horses who don't have the hang-ups that are seen in the video lessons and are described by some of the other members of the Uni :-)
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I also hope you keep questioning because I would hate for all of us here on the Uni to fall victim to Groupthink!
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Definition: Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that can occur in groups of people. Rather than critically evaluating information, the group members begin to form quick opinions that match the group consensus. Groupthink seems to occur most often when a respected or persuasive leader is present, inspiring members to agree with his or her opinion. Groupthink is sometimes positive but is more often seen in a negative light.
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Yours in healthy discussion,
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Gen

TIME OUT!
First of all Monty's concept are of positive rewards and negative consequences not punishment. Gen is right that in todays world punishment is a violent term and not a neutral term.
Also this is about the horse not about interpretation of other peoples philosophy. While it makes an interesting discusion to a point it also can keep other people from asking for help.

Cheers all

You've got that right, Dennis.
I'm not sure I will want to bring up any more questions.
Basically what I've been doing is writting to the support group or telephoning the Farm for help.
I have found my way of expressing myself, which is difficult, not understood very well so I am hesitent to do so.
For some English, not being their mother tongue, it is difficult, this seeming to be an English site.
I've never heard of Groupthink. For me that would mean empty headeness, not having the ability to think for oneself but I bet it doesn't mean that, right?.
I really enjoy Montys lessons and have tried so hard to apply them to my new horse, she's coming along, slowly but surely.
In one of Monyts videos he says, there really is no such thing as naturalhorsemanship because it is not natural for a horse to co-inhabit with humans. He says it is not natural for a human to ride on the back of a horse, etc. I found that to be very enlightening.

My Star
You have asked some very good questions. While it is important for people to be able to give their opinion and share their experiences, it becomes counter productive when you start to defend your position.

Cheers

Hi My Star
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I have been reding your posts with interest and I think you are doing a great job. My Star is lucky to have found you. The language barrier does make it hard for everyone at times, the other thing that is hard is that only our words are visible in this kind of communication which leaves a reader not seeing our body language and hearing our tone of voice when we deliver a message; both of which also helps others to interpret our intended messages.
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Yes, Groupthink is empty headedness (I like that definition lol)
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After being introduced to the concepts of Monty Roberts, I never ever want to go back to working with horses the way I was taught to. It didn't sit right with me then and now I know it wasn't best way of doing things.
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Thank you My Star for your questions and thank you Dennis for the great advice you give.
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Kind regards,
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Gen

Monty does not want to punish the horse if it does something wrong, just the wrong thing uncomfortable, and the right thing, comfortable, that simple!