Hi all - just tried to post a question to Monty under Questions and Answers and couldn't find a way to do it. Can anyone help? My question concerns the importance of environment re genetics in training horses. In all of Monty's teachings he tends to emphasise that there are not bad horses just bad owners and trainers. I really appreciate this view as I have seen many horses ruined for life by cruel training methods and just inexperienced owners but how important is genetics? Is there such a thing as a nasty streak in horses as there is in so many animals, including humans, that make it almost impossible to train this horse to become totally safe and trustworthy? Monty is always very careful in how he chooses his horses for his special training program so is this a reflection of how important genetics is too? Over the past 18 months I have spasmodically helped someone with a young horse she purchased. My impression of this horse was that he had very little training from the ground but just ridden and broken probably via pretty tough traditional methods. He just had no respect for people and was very stubborn even with the dually but not vicious with me. I successfully taught him to load on and off a float/trailer using Monty's methods and the dually, worked with him on a couple of occasions on the ground with the dually and managed to succeed in getting him to join-up with his owner. His owner did tell me he had a nasty streak and could be vicious but I didn't witness that. He was just unresponsive, dull and stubborn as if he had no real life in him and he was only 4 years old. I have never witnessed this before. We had some joint riding lessons together and he would rear occasionally but it was only a low rear and not vicious and generally he performed really well for a young horse However as he has continually caused some problems for the owner she sent him off to one of our top young riders/trainers for re-training. The result has been devestating - when she first started to ride this horse he apparently went beserk - rearing, and twisting and finally throwing this excellent rider off. Then he apparently attacked her on the ground. Naturally she did not get back on him. He has now been declared a dangerous horse and unrideable so he has a very limited future. I am so sad and so is the owner - he is a beautiful horse and didn't seem dangerous or vicious to me but now he has crossed the line. Was this extreme behaviour due to this rider reminding this horse of something really bad in his past training or was it just because he was born with a nasty streak? I would really appreciate your views if I cannot manage to ask Monty this question. This has just re-emphasised the lesson that is so important for all of us who love horses to learn "never volunteer to help with someone else's horse as the owner is the one in charge. As volunteers we are powerless to do much and will simply get hurt". I am so pleased I am a Monty student but I do so wish that more people could learn his methods and adopt them. I do believe that this horse would have responded if he had a Monty type trainer handling him but it is too late for this now.
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This is a very sad story, I know each horse has it's own personality and issues but I have a hard time believing that any horse is a lost cause. Obviously I don't know what caused this horse to behave so badly but there could be several reasons at play here. I would be interested to know what methods this rider used such as, a whip, spurs or just a "You'll do whatever I say", attitude. It would be great if you could find one of Monty's instructors to help with this horse, I believe they could save him from being destroyed.
Thanks Klienne I agree totally. I do think this rider did something to set him off or otherwise didn't allow him to familiarise himself with a new arena and herself adequately. It is a huge thing for a young horse to be passed on to someone else who may use different methods particularly if they have already been damaged by humans. Young horses that have always been kindly treated by humans would just take it in their stride but previously damaged horses are another matter. I am pretty sure this one was previously damaged and so much so that he was dulled so he wouldn't fight back unless really pressured. He showed no sign of fighting me and I certainly gave him plenty of opportunities. He just generally refused to do as requested even with the dually without a lot of pressure and consistency. He was frustrating to handle and it was hard to keep my adrenalin down with him. My gut feeling is that the young rider just got straight on him and asked him to perform probably with a whip and spurs but I do not know the details. His owners riding instructor had also had her use a riding whip on him but she didn't use it harshly despite the instuctor telling her to. It was hard during the combined lessons watching this. His owner may find out more when she returns as she is currently away hence her idea to have him trained up in her absence. I am pretty devestated by it all but there is not much I can do given I don't own him and only helped out occasionally. It was good of the owner to tell me what had happened but in away I wish she hadn't. I guess it is another good lesson with horses though and emphasizes the importance of consistency with a young horse. It is also a reminder to me not to get involved with someone else's horse. I thought I had learnt this lesson well enough many times in the past! I was tempted to allow this young expert rider to ride Tricka - thank goodness I didn't!! I changed my mind when she indicated that she was not a Monty fan! I agree that a Monty instructor could save this horse but I don't know of any local ones and I guess it would be expensive for the owner and it has to be her decision. If he was mine I would certainly do that but then I would have been using Monty's methods on him for the past 18 months too and would not have allowed a non Monty person near him. I fear the owner may be more inclined just to sell him on but hopefully not. She does love him and has tried to do the best for him but she hasn't really taken on Monty's methods despite joining the Uni. on my advice when she first got him. If she is still a member she may wish to add something to this discussion as she is better informed than me.
This is a very tricky one - without actually seeing what the expert rider did before the horse went berserk, it's hard to know why this happened. As discussed above, it could be due to past training trauma, but has anyone considered that this horse may have a medical issue? It might be worth having that checked out, just in case. I have heard of horses behaving strangely that eventually turned out to have brain tumours or some kind of physical issue. It would obviously be devastating for the owner to find out that there is something wrong, but if I owned that horse I think I would want to at least rule that out to enable me to decide what to do next. A thorough veterinary examination and some tests may just hold the answer.
Thanks emlaw for your comments. It is very depressing and I do feel there must be some reason for this. He is a beautiful looking horse but he has a very strange temprement so perhaps there is something there causing it.
Hi MaggieF!
That is indeed a sad story. You don't mention if the horse is a stallion or gelded. When was he gelded? Could he be a Cryptorchid? (One testicle left.) The problem sounds hormonal to me - as in something seriously wrong with it.
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To answer your basic question - does genetics play in - I am inclined to say yes to that. The Warmblood horses we have today have been bred for temper much more than say 50 years ago. I have it from someone who was more or less raised (and still works) at a one of Sweden's major studs (Flyinge - sadly as of last year no longer in Swedish hands, but that's a different story) and he told me that in the 60's the stallions were more or less impossible to handle in a halter - and that had nothing to do with their training - and very few were ridden. The mares were also a lot more "bitchy".
When riding schools started to become more and more frequent over the country, you needed horses that young girls could handle - as opposed to (military) men - and they started to breed out the "gender specific" behavior from the horses.
The explanation I've been given is, that the production of hormones has been diminished to make for horses that are more easily handled.
I'm not in possession of scientific proof here, but it makes sense to me, and fact remains that the breeders have managed to change the temper of the Warmbloods by breeding on individuals (mainly mares, since they tend to put 70% of the foal's "mental set") that have a higher "rideability" (or whatever you want to call it.)
Thanks Kicky - this makes sense, it is fascinating and it is really interesting for me as I own a warmblood. My warmblood - ex Victorian police from a Hannoverian stallion- is incredibly docile. She was only two when I purchased her at a police auction and I can ride her anywhere - sadly after training her for dressage she developed lameness in her front hooves when circled too-much so she had to be semi-retired when she was only 7 - very disappointing. Her front pasterns are apparently too wide which allowed for too much movement of the hoof in circles and on slopes. No good for breeding either. I still have her agisted in a flat paddock and try to ride her at least once a fortnight. She is 19 years old now. My grandchildren love climbing up on her and riding her but she is huge - only 16.2 but always too fat and very greedy. So I guess she is a good example of the breeding you mentioned. I agree genetics should be important too as they are for all animals but Monty does seem to say there is never a bad horse just bad humans. I always look for a gentle eye in a horse as I think that says a lot. This horse I am so sad about currently has a gentle eye. He was gelded late so this could have something to do with it. He is strange as he is so unresponsive and seems to have no respect or like for people. Doesn't even seem to appreciate been patted and stroked. He was just really unresponsive and very stubborn but didn't seem to be aggressive or dangerous to me. I feel very sorry for his owner as I do not know what she can do now and she has tried so hard with him over the past 18 months. She said he had a dangerous streak but she did seem to be making progress so this must be devestating for her - it is bad enough for me. It makes me so angry that people can just sell horses to others without any concern for the truth and that it must always be "buyer be ware". It seems that the lady that bred and previously owned this horse should be held accountable in someway. There was some attempt to tighten up the legal requirements re selling horses in Australia so I must check out what happened to that. I think the idea was to have a legally binding signed dossier on the horse from the owner at sale - a kind of registration that stayed with the horse for its life and was signed by all owners. Pretty sure nothing happened re this but I must check it out. The idea was to place some legal responsibility on the seller to encourage more honesty which would be really good.
Maggie - a similar scheme was introduced in the UK a few years ago whereby all horses have to have a passport which accompanies them throughout their life. They have to be registered either with a breed society or the BHS (British Horse Society) and their passport contains such information as breeding, vaccinations, veterinary treatments, owners details etc. A great idea as it gives a good snapshot of the horse and it's history, and makes it harder (although not impossible) for people to sell on horses with known issues.
This horse sounds as though he has either suffered some kind of mental trauma or has some medical condition - I really hope the owner is able to get to the bottom of it for her sake and the sake of the poor horse, so that some kind ot treatment and/or training plan can be put in place. Whereabouts in Australia are you?
Any way they can get him to one of Monty's clinics when he get to Australia in September?
Thanks Kicki and Emlaw. The UK passport sounds so good - do hope someday a similar scheme can be introduced into Australia as it is the situation is fairly bad here. Unfortunately the horse is in Melbourne and financial resources are prohibitive to getting him to one of Monty's clinics or even one of his certified trainers. Taking him to a clinic would be so great if possible as I feel even Monty would find him an interesting case.
Maggie - just a thought - this might be worth discussing with Lynn Mitchell. She's in Victoria, and may be able to offer some support, even if just to you!
Lynn is in Glenburn and is the coordinator for Monty's Australia tour. I emailed her about her Join Up clinics a while back and she was very nice and helpful. I am hoping to attend one of her Join Up weekends sometime. We are in NZ but are moving over to Melbourne later on this year for work.
Thanks so much Ruthy and Emlaw - I e-mailed Lynn yesterday re Monty's tour to find out a few more details re whether this horse would be suitable for demo prior to suggesting it to the owner. If he was suitable and the owner was willing I would be prepared to help her take him to Monty's session at Tamworth. Unfortunately I am not the owner and all decisions re this horse do depend on her. I know that she has made up her mind never to ride him again but I am not sure what she intends to do with him. All I can do is suggest that she contacts Lynn herself but it may be prohibitive financially for her. Let me know when you are moving to Melbourne, Emlaw. I would be happy to help out if I could. I live in the north of Melbourne - Diamond Creek - Yarrambat. It is quite a horsey area if you are able to own a horse while here. It used to be also relatively inexpensive but unfortunately that has now changed as land and house prices have soured in the last 10 years. We moved out here in 1989 and were so lucky to buy our five acres at that time.
Maggie - we are not sure yet where we will be living, we will be coming over the week after next for a look around. I definitely want to be somewhere horsey so I can carry on riding. But in the meantime I have the sad task of selling my two geldings here. You would not believe the number of wierdos and idiots who have been ringing me wanting to buy them without seeing them and just wanting them shoved onto a wagon and sent off goodness knows where. No wonder horses end up traumatised and messed up when people do not take the time to make sure that the horse and owner are a good match in terms of experience and personality. It makes me mad and sad. We will not be making our move until I know both boys are settled into suitable new homes.
PS - thanks for the offer of help Maggie, I may just need to pick your brains a bit when it comes down to deciding where to live!
Maggie, I have looked on online uni and I can't find a way to send messages to Monty but I receive his weekly newsletter and there is a contact address to send questions to Monty:- askmonty@montyroberts.com. Hope that will help.
It would be even better if Monty could see the horse on his Australian Tour. Would be such a shame for the horse to end up abandonned in a field!! Keep us posted when you get a reply from Lynn Mitchell
Yes, please do keep us posted - I'm interested to know what the outcome is for this horse.
Thanks Mimi - I get his Newsletter too so I will check that out. There must be some way of adding a question to the Q and A stream here so I may also ask Support. I have contacted Lynn and she sent me details of the requirements of horses for demos in Australia which was good of her. Unfortunately she does not train horses just owners and it seems that most of her clinics are related to showing owners how to do join-up. I did manage to get this horse to join-up with his owner one day even though it was a bit of a challenge. If he was mine I would take him to one of Lynn's clinics as shw is not that far away. I have offered to help the owner do this if she would care to try. I have also offered to help her take him to Tamworth if he succeeds in fitting the criteria. So far I haven't heard back from her and I do feel a bit like an interfering busy body so I probably should just butt out. It was good of the owner to let me know what had happened but that maybe as far as it will go. He still floats perfectly so I guess I achieved something for him.
Maggie - I think you have done the best you can for this lady and her horse, all good advice, I hope she acts on it and tries to sort it out.
Thanks Emlaw - I tend to agree. It is up to her now. She knows I am willing to help if she needs me and that's all I can do. Re coming to Melbourne - I am biased but I think the best areas particularly if you wish to own a horse and the outer north eastern suburbs. In an arc Warrandyte, Research, Eltham, Diamond Creek, Yarrambat and Plenty. Further out you have St. Andrews, Panton Hill and Kangaroo Ground. Driving is becoming an increasing problem in Melbourne as the population has exploded in recent years and the roads haven't kept pace with this. Where we live at Diamond Creek it used to be possible to get to the city in about 40 minutes. Off peak it is still possible but it takes an hour or more during peak hour. I guess you know that Melbourne's climate is pretty ordinary. It has been really wet the last two winters. My horses are just living in bog at present and mud fever is always a problem. Luckily none have developed it so far this winter but the paddocks are so wet. Don't mean to put you off. Melbourne is meant to be one of the most livable cities in the world but I still struggle with the climate after living here for 45 years!
Miscalculation 35 years! Good luck in finding suitable owners for your two horses. It must be so hard to sell them but if you know they are with people who will love and look after them then you can relax. Hopefully you will be able to find a suitable replacement horse when you come to Melbourne. As the economy is turning down a bit prices of horses should fall too.
Thanks Maggie - I was born in the UK and lived there for 37 years so the Melbourne climate doesn't bother me too much, I'm used to muddy and wet winters! Think I may have found a buyer for one of my geldings, a nice chap who he just seemed to click with, he's coming back tomorrow for another ride.
My husbands job is in the CBD and most likely I will be working in the CBD too, so we are thinking maybe somewhere with a good train link. We will be renting initially so that gives us the opportunity to try out an area before we think about buying. I have been looking at horses for sale online too in Melbourne, more choice than here I think.
Hi Emlaw - so pleased you have found someone who seems suitable for one of your horses. That must be a relief given some of the enquiries you have had! The Eltham/Hurstbridge line runs through Eltham, Diamond Creek and Hurtsbridge so you may be interested in checking that out. Its about 55 minutes from Hurstbridge in on an Express train, 45 minutes from Diamond Creek and about 40 minutes from Eltham. Re horses - would you like a real challenge? The owner of the horse my question here is about wishes to just give him to someone who would look after him. She has offered him to me and I would love to take him on but I already have six horses - most of them being unsalable plus I am really too old to handle a challenge like this and another youngster. I have trouble finding the time for my Tricka and she is also challenging enough. If you are at all interested I would be happy to look after him for you until you came to Melbourne. I am trying to find out more details but it seems that the young girl did just get on him and expect him to perform in a completely new environment with no orientation to it. Apparently she saddled him under some kind of awning and he was spooked by that and then she just took him to her menage and rode him without letting him see it first. Apparently one side of the menage really drops away sharply and this horse spooked at that and then went crazy. I think she would have whipped him hard when he first played up as she did tell us before she took him that you needed to hit them hard with a whip while they are still in the air with a buck. This made me wary of her but the owner didn't really want to know about my qualms as she was so impressed with this girl. I am trying to find out exactly who broke him in but I suspect it is a breaker I used to know who uses traditional breaking methods a bit like Monty's father did - very cruel in my books. This young rider knows that family well too so ....?? This horse is galloway in height -about 14.5 hands maybe 15 hands - 4.5 years old - maybe 5 now, he is pitch black and very hansome, he has a kind eye but dull and unresponsive in character and apparently aggressive. I have handled him on a few occasions since his owner purchased him and we have had some real battles but he was never aggressive with me. My forum question re join up in a paddock of juicy green grass was about this horse and also one re floating and the dually early last year. It was really hard to teach him to respond to the dually and I was right under his neck while I was trying to make him back with the dually so he could have easily got me if he wished too. Plus he had plenty of opportunities to do me in when I was trying to get him to join up with his owner. My gut feeling is that he could respond to Monty type instruction but ...?? He does seem to respond to gentle handling and a kind voice but doesn't really respond to pats and strokes. Apparently he has shown aggression at times with his owner though so there are some big IFs to consider. If memory serves me right the owner paid $3,500 for him 12 -18 months ago and now she just wonts to give him away. It has been an expensive, sad experience for her. I guess her only alternative is to take him to a vet to be put down. Just thought I may mention it as I really can't take him on permanently myself - I always wanted a black horse - pity about age catching up with you. Our phone number in Melbourne is 0394381068. You may care to call when you reach Melbourne and we could at least swap e-mail addresses so that we can keep in touch that way. Apologies to other forum readers as this has ended up being a bit personal.
Hi Maggie
You can email me at emlaw@hotmail.com and we have have a further chat offline. Sounds like this poor boy needs some TLC and a bit of one on one. I am not sure if I would be experienced enough to handle him though, he sounds like a case for a professional. Rob Horne near Sydney is Monty Roberts certified but he also takes remedial horses for training - www.robhorne.net.au. It would be a terrible shame if he ended up being put down though if there is a chance he could be helped.
Thanks emlaw - I will e-mail you. I will see him again to-morrow morning. The owner has given him a lot of TLC but he hasn't really responded to her but she hasn't used Monty's methods consistently. It is all so IFFY and if he is truly dangerous then I guess there is little future for him.
Hi all - just thought I would give you the final outcome for this horse. After agonising for days the final decision was taken out of my hands by the owner to-day and that is a relief. She has given this horse to a traditional but fair trainer, breaker dealer who has ridden this horse for her in the past. Pretty sure that this horse was broken by the tradional breaking methods so at least his re-training will be consistent with his past breaking. Stupid horse he had found himself a loving home pity he didn't appreciate it. Hopefully someday he will find another kind owner to stick to. I have never known such an unresponsive, passive horse. I think his spirit was broken during his breaking and he now hates humans but puts up with them until he sees a window of opportunity to fight back. That is what makes him so potentially dangerous. It is just so sad what some people can do to horses. Once again I salute and thank Monty for having the determination and will power to reject the cruel training methods of his father and to look for and find a better way. The world is a better place for so many horses and owners to-day because of Monty and others like him. It would be so nice if the cruel, traditional, training methods could be outlawed throughout the world. Dream on me! Who wants a dull passive horse with no spirit or trust of humans? Thank goodness I can now concentrate on my own beautiful horses.
I hope that will turn out to be something that benefits the horse in the end. One can at least hope, poor thing!
Thanks for the update, MaggieF!
I have been wondering why there is no legislation to stop cruel breaking in methods. If somebody tied a dog or cat's leg up the way the traditional old school horse breakers do there would be an outcry and they would be accused of cruelty, yet it somehow seems to be acceptable for horses to be treated that way. All we can do is keep spreading the word and hope that people can realise that there is a better way.
Maggie - I think your assessment of the situation is spot on, he has had his spirit broken. That is why I dislike the term 'breaking in' so much. I hope things turn out OK for this poor horse in the end.
there was this race horse that had become so dangerous that he was band from racing and then Monty was challenged to see if he could do anything with him and it took him 80 days to accomplish it but he was able to help the horse get back to racing and winning but Monty told the people the specific way he was to be treated
Thanks everyone. With you emlaw - wish there was away to stop this cruel method of breaking in. Yes "breakin-in" via the traditional cruel methods literally means exactly that and the end result is a "broken" horse and offenders certainly should be prosecuted! I hate it and Banjo is a good example of what the end results can be. I seem to have lost my aol e-mail account for some reason so apologies if you have e-mailed the last couple of days!